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VDZ
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« Reply #220 on: February 23, 2013, 06:10:51 AM »

It's choice.

do you mean this choice



Yes, that choice. It's called the choice to work part-time, a choice more women than men make. Not saying there's no gender wage gap, but women make ~80% of men's wage when working full-time, not 50%-60%. How much of that is caused by other factors (working less overtime, choosing jobs that pay less, etc) and how much is caused by sexism is up for debate.

Modern feminism makes me sad. It makes me sad how when somebody lashes out at radical feminism, it's followed by an instant ban threat, while anybody defending the rights of men is wrong by default and a free target for whatever remarks you want to make, even up to using the mere concept as an insult. There's a strong correlation between men's rights activists and male chauvinism, but does that make automatically make any criticism towards feminism invalid? I think that's just irrational.

Myself, I'm a big proponent of gender equality. Not out of some conviction that something needs to be changed in the power balance between genders, but because I honestly don't care about gender - a human being is a human being, regardless of what sexual characteristics that person happened to be born with. Feminism has this 'us versus them' thing going on, almost entirely being focused on making women more privileged. Which is fine, since women are still discriminated more than men, but everything should have its limits.

This PS4 presentation is a perfect example. There were only people of the male gender on stage. Why is this so inherently evil? Why is there a need for a specific gender distribution during a presentation related to video games? And why do we not do the same for age, ethnic background, religion, career history, and a bazillion other random factors? If it were a case of a woman being denied a position on stage because of her gender, that would be worthy of an outrage. But this is a presentation about a fucking video game console of all things - a male would not say anything different from what a female would say in the same position during the same presentation. There would be more of a difference if it were a business guy or a developer, a non-indie or an indie. But instead we're complaining about the genders of the people involved. All of the people involved were male, but so what?

I feel the same about the recent 'more women should enter the games industry!' nonsense. Why? Are women better programmers than men? Better artists? Do they do better in PR positions? Our industry is about making entertainment, not researching the biological differences between genders or something. I don't care if there are women in a team I'm working with, or if it's an all-male team - I care about their skills, motivation and personality, but I don't see what gender has to do with it. We don't 'need' more women in the industry. We need only as many as choose to join the industry.
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ஒழுக்கின்மை (Paul Eres)
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« Reply #221 on: February 23, 2013, 06:35:20 AM »

B-but I'm a man and I don't like sports!  But I'm a woman and I like sports!  SHIT LIKE THIS EVA, THIS SHIT IS WHY YOUR KIND FEEL LIKE PARIAHS.  It's because everyone is getting a fucking raw deal, we just don't have this obnoxious banner to sit under and sing songs about how terrible everyone else is.  

do you mean this banner



i guess that disparity IS obnoxious

note that this chart is a bit misleading because there are more stay at home moms than stay at home dads. if you compare male and female pay for the same job, it's much more equal (though still not identical, men still have a slight advantage, but not a 2x advantage as in this chart)

your second chart is similarly misleading because it still doesn't compare pay for the same positions, just pay by industry, and most industries have more male ceos and higher-ups than female ones (who are paid more). for instance, take the medical industry. there are more male doctors than female doctors, and more female nurses than male nurses, so if you look at total pay in the health care industry, males make more. but if you compared male nurses to female nurses, the difference in pay is much more negligible. so basically, if you compare individual jobs, say, all physics professors with 10 years of experience, male and female, the pay is almost (but not quite) identical

so the main thing that needs to be fixed is *not* paying men and women the same for the same work, because that's already pretty much achieved, the main thing to be fixed is getting women in higher positions within an industry (more female ceos, business owners, and so on)
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« Reply #222 on: February 23, 2013, 06:39:29 AM »


note that this chart is a bit misleading because there are more stay at home moms than stay at home dads. if you compare male and female pay for the same job, it's much more equal (though still not identical, men still have a slight advantage, but not a 2x advantage as in this chart)

That's true; I was trying to show that it's wrong to just say "everyone gets a raw deal" when an obvious equality exists (you might also consider why women rather than men end up staying home when in truth it could be either of them).

"Modern feminism makes me sad. It makes me sad how when somebody lashes out at radical feminism, it's followed by an instant ban threat, while anybody defending the rights of men is wrong by default and a free target for whatever remarks you want to make, even up to using the mere concept as an insult."

What rights of men do you argue for that then get shot down? What rights are being infringed on? How are those rights being infringed on exactly?
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« Reply #223 on: February 23, 2013, 06:41:42 AM »

Well, I have nothing against feminists in general, however I can't stand those who would deprive others of rights. Those are radical feminists that go to extremes to harass any opposition, depriving them of their rights, in order to force their own agenda.

My god, you are just an insufferable fuck.  No one is depriving you of your right to be an insufferable fuck.  You have that right.  But others have the right to call you on it.

That's not gagging. That's not censorship.  That's not stripping you of your rights.  It's telling you the truth that you are a worthless piece of shit.  If you don't like being called a worthless piece of shit, it isn't the fault of the people calling you one.  It's your fault for being one.

Edit:
Actually, that graph isn't misleading (or if it is, it's only slightly so).  It's median income, not mean, so by definition it can't be brought down by people getting paid 0 (this is ignoring that potentially there are women out of the work pool who would bring the median up, but let's assume that people are behaving rationally and optimally and if it would be more valuable [monetarily] for a woman to work and to put her children in day-care she would do so).
« Last Edit: February 23, 2013, 06:54:24 AM by Fallsburg » Logged
ஒழுக்கின்மை (Paul Eres)
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« Reply #224 on: February 23, 2013, 06:55:36 AM »

@crowe - i think the everyone gets a raw deal is true but not in the sense he meant. it means something more like: most people in the world, male or female, are taken advantage of by the ruling class (the state-corporate cabal of lobbyists, special favors, etc.)

if you are a super-rich minority female (say, a black female banking executive) you have much more power than a white male in poverty. so the real struggle for power in the world is not between male and female, but between the crony/state plutocracy and everyone else

(note that a distinction should be made between the super-rich who earned it, like oprah and bill gates, and the super rich who are there because of heredity, special favors, government deals, etc. -- i'm not saying that honest business owners like the owner of whole foods or whatever are the enemy, just the ones that get government bail-outs and use lobbying as a weapon to amass wealth and destroy the competition -- the later class of the super-rich is much more numerous than the former class)

so basically: yes, white males in poverty and in the middle class have slightly more rights than minorities and females in poverty and the middle class, but all of those people have very few rights compared to the ones who really run things, and all of those disadvantaged groups squabbling among themselves won't get real rights. real rights can only be achieved by the overthrow of the government-corporatist complex, because they are the ones that hold all the cards

it's definitely true that white males are a higher percentage of that ruling class, but that doesn't mean anything if you're a white male homeless person, for instance. at the level of the homeless, is there really any advantage to being male? wouldn't most people rather be born female and upper class than born male and homeless?
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« Reply #225 on: February 23, 2013, 07:02:00 AM »

Quote from: VDZ
This PS4 presentation is a perfect example. There were only people of the male gender on stage. Why is this so inherently evil?
for the 500000th time, no one is saying it was "evil" other other you and samtagonist. i still don't understand what you MRA types are getting so upset over. the supposed "feminist arguments" you discredit havent been made by anyone in this thread.
« Last Edit: February 23, 2013, 07:09:37 AM by C.A. Sinclair » Logged
Christian Knudsen
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« Reply #226 on: February 23, 2013, 07:03:54 AM »

We need an equal representation of strawwomen to strawmen in this thread!
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« Reply #227 on: February 23, 2013, 07:07:32 AM »

Well, I have nothing against feminists in general, however I can't stand those who would deprive others of rights. Those are radical feminists that go to extremes to harass any opposition, depriving them of their rights, in order to force their own agenda.

My god, you are just an insufferable fuck.  No one is depriving you of your right to be an insufferable fuck.  You have that right.  But others have the right to call you on it.

That's not gagging. That's not censorship.  That's not stripping you of your rights.  It's telling you the truth that you are a worthless piece of shit.  If you don't like being called a worthless piece of shit, it isn't the fault of the people calling you one.  It's your fault for being one.

I consider myself stripped of my rights when picketing feminists physically prevent me from entering the university I'm attending and shouting me down with verbal insults. I consider myself stripped of my rights when a woman accuses me of sexual harassment where there was none, yet the "justice" sides with her. I consider myself stripped of my rights when the woman bearing my child decides to abort it without ever consulting me. I consider myself stripped of my rights when the woman denies access to my own children. I consider myself stripped of my rights when the woman verbally assaults me and suffers no consequence, whereas I am heavily reprimanded should I respond in kind.

If I have to be worthless piece of shit to make a stand against the injustice wrought on by feminists, so be it. I take solace in knowing that a worthless piece of shit can make a stand on its own.

Quote from: VDZ
This PS4 presentation is a perfect example. There were only people of the male gender on stage. Why is this so inherently evil?
for the 500000th time, no one is saying it was "evil" other other you, samtagonist and mipe. i still don't understand what you MRA types are getting so upset over. the supposed "feminist arguments" you discredit havent been made by anyone in this thread.

And yet again people start putting words into my mouth. I never said that. Some moderator you are.
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« Reply #228 on: February 23, 2013, 07:08:05 AM »

im the best
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VDZ
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« Reply #229 on: February 23, 2013, 07:09:20 AM »

Quote from: VDZ
This PS4 presentation is a perfect example. There were only people of the male gender on stage. Why is this so inherently evil?
for the 500000th time, no one is saying it was "evil" other other you, samtagonist and mipe. i still don't understand what you MRA types are getting so upset over. the supposed "feminist arguments" you discredit havent been made by anyone in this thread.
Then why is a big deal being made out of it? I sure as hell didn't initially bring up the 'no women at that presentation' thing. Perhaps 'evil' is the wrong word here. Why is it worth getting worked up over, reporting it in the game press, or otherwise holding it out as a notable fact?
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« Reply #230 on: February 23, 2013, 07:23:09 AM »

no one is making a big deal out of it other than you lol. i mean, i wouldnt be surprised if the kotaku article was written to drum up "controversy" (because, you know, kotaku) but the initial reaction from the "pro-feminist" side (at least here on tig) was more like "yeah it'd have been better if sony had had a few women presenters at the event because it would have reflected the state of the industry better" which you & others somehow managed to twist into "sony is an evil misogynist conspiracy"

what i dont get is why you seemingly "fight" for sony's "right" to only have men on stage during a press event and write lengthy diatribes on how awful "modern feminism" is. like, what's your stake in the discussion?
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« Reply #231 on: February 23, 2013, 07:24:49 AM »

I consider myself stripped of my rights when picketing feminists physically prevent me from entering the university I'm attending and shouting me down with verbal insults. I consider myself stripped of my rights when a woman accuses me of sexual harassment where there was none, yet the "justice" sides with her. I consider myself stripped of my rights when the woman bearing my child decides to abort it without ever consulting me. I consider myself stripped of my rights when the woman denies access to my own children. I consider myself stripped of my rights when the woman verbally assaults me and suffers no consequence, whereas I am heavily reprimanded should I respond in kind.

How many fedoras do you own?
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VDZ
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« Reply #232 on: February 23, 2013, 07:27:38 AM »

"Modern feminism makes me sad. It makes me sad how when somebody lashes out at radical feminism, it's followed by an instant ban threat, while anybody defending the rights of men is wrong by default and a free target for whatever remarks you want to make, even up to using the mere concept as an insult."

What rights of men do you argue for that then get shot down? What rights are being infringed on? How are those rights being infringed on exactly?
"Rights" are a bit of a misnomer. But regarding male discrimination, some less bias towards women in the issues of divorce, domestic violence and rape would be nice for a start. Women on average get off much better on the first issue (I know there are exceptions, my own mother got relatively screwed over when divorcing my father), with the husband generally paying (often excessive*) alimony and the wife more often getting custody of the children with no (or unenforced) obligation to let the father have any kind of contact with the children.
*People get screwed over, especially alimony-wise, during divorce regardless of gender. Husband->wife alimony is much more common, though, so the husband gets screwed over more often.

For the latter two problems, the bias is so heavy that many people don't even accept that it's happening. LOLOL how could a woman possibly hurt a man! What kind of a pussy are you to be to be a male victim of domestic violence? Modern feminists are only worsening these two issues, campaigning for further awareness of domestic violence and rape (despite the fact that everyone is already aware of these issues)...and almost always presenting it as a situation with solely female victims, further reinforcing this bias. If as a female you are a victim of rape or domestic violence, there's lots of support for you, but if you're a man, FUCK OFF AND MAN UP. You can't be a victim because you're a man.

Again, I'm not saying feminism is evil and men are the real victims of society, but there are points where even males are victims of discrimination. Gender equality means you try to solve the problem on both sides; one needs more work than the other, but that doesn't mean the other should be ignored.
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« Reply #233 on: February 23, 2013, 07:30:03 AM »

Can we split the discussion so this thread is about the PS4? The women's wages discussion is probably better served by its own thread in general.
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« Reply #234 on: February 23, 2013, 07:37:54 AM »

How many fedoras do you own?
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« Reply #235 on: February 23, 2013, 07:45:14 AM »

VDZ, I'm sure people realize that it's sometimes tough to be a man too, but that's not what's being talked about. Women are affected by discrimination in worse ways, but it's impossible to ever discuss without people like you jumping in with "but what about the men?? I'm a victim too!"
I know it's easier to talk about things you have personal experience with, but it really does look like you think men have it worse when it seems you feel the focus has to be shifted from the problems women face to the problems men face, in any such discussion. Do you realise that all you're doing is derailing the discussion without bringing any new information?
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« Reply #236 on: February 23, 2013, 07:46:53 AM »

no one is making a big deal out of it other than you lol. i mean, i wouldnt be surprised if the kotaku article was written to drum up "controversy" (because, you know, kotaku) but the initial reaction from the "pro-feminist" side (at least here on tig) was more like "yeah it'd have been better if sony had had a few women presenters at the event because it would have reflected the state of the industry better" which you & others somehow managed to twist into "sony is an evil misogynist conspiracy"

what i dont get is why you seemingly "fight" for sony's "right" to only have men on stage during a press event and write lengthy diatribes on how awful "modern feminism" is. like, what's your stake in the discussion?

You are putting more words in my mouth than I have even said in total during this discussion.

Quote
you & others somehow managed to twist into "sony is an evil misogynist conspiracy"
Disregarding others (we're not a hivemind), where did I ever do this? I just asked what's wrong with having only men on stage. How does it 'reflect the state of the industry better' if only having males on stage was the natural result of internally picking people to get on stage? Wouldn't specifically modifying that setup to include people with specific characteristics instead misrepresent the state of the industry? (To note: It has been called 'a failing on the part of Sony's PR department', a 'faux pas' and repeatedly 'sexism' in this thread.)

Quote
what i dont get is why you seemingly "fight" for sony's "right" to only have men on stage during a press event
Well, yes. Sony can put on stage whoever Sony wants to put on stage. Is there some specific official list of requirements for official presentations I'm unaware of that Sony is violating? Sony has the right to do this, similar to how you have the right to decide what to eat for lunch, or what threads you reply to. Unless there's some exception saying that specific case isn't, making your own decisions is a right. People have been saying there was something wrong with how Sony made these decisions, and without any good argument as to why it is wrong I feel Sony has the right to make the decisions it made.

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write lengthy diatribes on how awful "modern feminism" is.
Again, where did I write a lengthy diatribe how awful it is? I said it makes me sad, and I wrote a single paragraph that part of it is counterproductive. I never said modern feminism is 'awful' (as feminism still has a lot of good parts, there are even feminists who fully acknowledge the men's issues I mentioned earlier), let alone write a lengthy diatribe about it.
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« Reply #237 on: February 23, 2013, 07:52:26 AM »

VDZ, I'm sure people realize that it's sometimes tough to be a man too, but that's not what's being talked about. Women are affected by discrimination in worse ways, but it's impossible to ever discuss without people like you jumping in with "but what about the men?? I'm a victim too!"
I know it's easier to talk about things you have personal experience with, but it really does look like you think men have it worse when it seems you feel the focus has to be shifted from the problems women face to the problems men face, in any such discussion. Do you realise that all you're doing is derailing the discussion without bringing any new information?


Do two wrongs make a right?
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« Reply #238 on: February 23, 2013, 07:58:38 AM »

The men/women Sony thing seems pretty big on Kotaku....

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« Reply #239 on: February 23, 2013, 07:59:01 AM »

VDZ, I'm sure people realize that it's sometimes tough to be a man too, but that's not what's being talked about. Women are affected by discrimination in worse ways, but it's impossible to ever discuss without people like you jumping in with "but what about the men?? I'm a victim too!"
I know it's easier to talk about things you have personal experience with, but it really does look like you think men have it worse when it seems you feel the focus has to be shifted from the problems women face to the problems men face, in any such discussion. Do you realise that all you're doing is derailing the discussion without bringing any new information?

I fully understand that there are more issues for feminism to deal with than there are for "men's rights" or whatever you want to call them to deal with. My issue wasn't that those issues weren't being discussed as much as feminist issues, my issue was that anybody discussing them in the first place is seen as degenerate (guilt by association), the concept of it is used as an insult, and that insult is used frequently when any criticism of feminism is given, implying that the argument is invalid because the person who gave it is degenerate (ad hominem).
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