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_Tommo_
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« Reply #240 on: February 23, 2013, 08:19:46 AM »

so uhm, in the case of the PS4 situation what's the solution there?

Putting random women there just because?
Excluding relevant men because the quotas have to be met?
Maybe while we're at it we can exclude sexy women by committee rating because they would be objectifying the women's appearance otherwise.

IMO everything that strips an individual of its qualities making some non-chosen label more important than his individual qualities, such as "male" or "female", "white" or "black", is racist doesn't respect the people you're using it to address...
and feminists are again doing a big disservice to their cause being the first ones that judge an individual purely upon its being male or female.

If 99% of the top executives in sony is male, the problem isn't the conference not having the mandatory female quota but everywhere from CS courses devoid of girls to companies... this kind of rants won't make anything better.
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skaldicpoet9
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« Reply #241 on: February 23, 2013, 08:28:55 AM »

Wow, just wow.

I am all up for civil discourse. Hell, I thrive on it. I have to say that this thread is getting quite hostile though.

I understand that women feel marginalized. It's a terrible thing, obviously. I would love to see more women in the industry, it can only mean good things and better games.

However, I don't understand the raging really. I still consider the article manufactured controversy (oh, and from Kotaku of all places, how surprising Durr...?),however, it is a topic that is worth much more attention for sure, but do we really have to resort to petty arguing and name-calling?

On that note to, to get this off of my chest since it is bothering me, but since when did Tigsource become so lax on verbal abuse? I admit it's been awhile since I've posted here regularly, but it is alarming the number of posts I've seen since I've come back that have been downright abrasive. Years ago the ban hammer would have come out quick and hard for verbal abuse as such. I'm just not use to seeing this type of posting on Tigs (Reddit or some random gaming site, sure).

Also, this whole topic has completely derailed the original topic. I agree with SirNiko, could this topic be split into a new thread?

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\\\\\\\"Fearlessness is better than a faint heart for any man who puts his nose out of doors. The date of my death and length of my life were fated long ago.\\\\\\\"
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« Reply #242 on: February 23, 2013, 08:31:30 AM »

Quote
Modern feminism makes me sad. It makes me sad how when somebody lashes out at radical feminism, it's followed by an instant ban threat, while anybody defending the rights of men is wrong by default and a free target for whatever remarks you want to make, even up to using the mere concept as an insult. There's a strong correlation between men's rights activists and male chauvinism, but does that make automatically make any criticism towards feminism invalid? I think that's just irrational.
consider the fact that samtagonist and the likes use "feminism" as an insult on a daily basis and are not banned. yes, i know "radical feminism" is a thing and they do mean things, but how the fuck is talking about a kotaku article "radical," it's perhaps the least radical thing i can think of, and i have no idea why you mrm identifiers keep tagging radical to feminist, oh right! to say that you hate a "certain type of feminists," the ones that are radical so you can pretend to care, but not really. also, no mrm has defended the rights of men in this thread and i would never "target" that-- i'm serious, look at the thread. if there's a men's issue here spill the beans! oh, you mean the ones that self-identify as an mrm and post that they stand for equal rights and right after that line excuse it with "women are less productive" as a fucking guess -- because fuck science -- as the answer to the pay gap? what is MRM even about? let's see:
In the mid- to late 1970s the men's liberation movement split into two separate strands with opposing views: The pro-feminist men's movement and an antifeminist men's rights movement.[5] Men's rights activists have since then rejected feminist principles and focused on disadvantages of men and what they see as evidence of men's oppression.

The men's rights movement is generally understood as a backlash or countermovement to feminism.[6][7][8][9] The men's rights movement consists of diverse points of view which are hostile toward feminist ideas.[10] Men's rights activists believe that feminism has overshot its objective and harmed men.[6][11][5] They dispute that men as a group have institutional power and privilege[12][10] and instead see men as the real victims,[13][5] arguing that men are disadvantaged relative to women.[14] Men's rights activists see men as an oppressed collective and agree that society and government have been "feminized" by the women's movement.[6] Warren Farrell and Herb Goldberg, for instance, believe that all men are disadvantaged, discriminated against and oppressed and argue that power is an illusion for most men since women are the actual bearers of power.[6] Men's rights groups generally reject the notion that feminism is interested in men's problems[10] and some activists view the women's movement as a conspiracy which aims at concealing discrimination against men.

if any MRM wants to dispute this, go ahead. actually don't, the whole thing is "irrational" and i don't apologize for using MRM as an insult, that'd be stupid when you, samtagonist, and mipe are doing the exact same thing. you see the two posts right above me? that's what complete fucking ignorance looks like.

Quote
I feel the same about the recent 'more women should enter the games industry!' nonsense. Why? Are women better programmers than men? Better artists? Do they do better in PR positions? Our industry is about making entertainment, not researching the biological differences between genders or something. I don't care if there are women in a team I'm working with, or if it's an all-male team - I care about their skills, motivation and personality, but I don't see what gender has to do with it. We don't 'need' more women in the industry. We need only as many as choose to join the industry.
i can't roll my eyes any harder. no, it doesn't "NEED" women in the industry( but why would anyone actively be against "more women should enter the games industry"? you ever think about that? perhaps you are not for gender equality as the thousand other MRMs declared before screaming I DON'T CARE at the issue) but this fucking industry sure can benefit from a larger talent pool. games is about making entertainment, it's also about making games that cost millions of dollars to make, it's also in their interest to make the best games and that means looking for the best of the best to work on it, and that is not an all-male team. it's also in their interest to make money doing it. but it turns out it's interested in making entertainment heavily skewed towards stereotypical male's interests because some idiot posing as a marketer said so. that's bad for growth. it also turns out it's interested in making entertainment that's even offensive towards groups, "unintentionally", but i don't believe in the unintentional. i believe people in the game industry are that incompetent with social issues and need to hire women and minorities or get some consultants because it's getting embarrassing.
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gimymblert
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« Reply #243 on: February 23, 2013, 08:32:44 AM »

Women don't choose to work part time, they choose to be responsible and raise the kids ... because most men don't care aside from playing with. It's more rare a guy choose to work part time to raise his kids that a women, which further weaken women situation (stress at work, stress at home, social pressure, personal pressure).

And women on average has better success in school and manage business better, yet they are not represented in situation of responsibility. Women in medics dwarf men, yet the director is most likely to be a men.

There is no meritocracy, it's entirely biased.

And the controversies has more with denying women the right to be gamer rather than women forcing their way into, they were already there but just be fed up being silenced once they have proven themselves or reduce to only sex object.
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Udderdude
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« Reply #244 on: February 23, 2013, 08:33:20 AM »

Seems this forum is incapable of talking about gender issues without shitting itself and running around with it's pants on fire.

Also not to say anything about eva's arguments but she's already been banned from here like 4 times.
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gimymblert
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« Reply #245 on: February 23, 2013, 08:34:01 AM »

for like totally different reason
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skaldicpoet9
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« Reply #246 on: February 23, 2013, 08:45:09 AM »

Seems this forum is incapable of talking about gender issues without shitting itself and running around with it's pants on fire.

Also not to say anything about eva's arguments but she's already been banned from here like 4 times.

You'd think that we were all little kids running around the playground with baseball bats beating each other over the head with LOUD POINTS and YOU ARE DUM.

Yes, it is a touchy issue.

The name-calling and overall unfriendly tone of it all though is just too much though and is unwarranted.

Disagree with someone, fine.

Think someone is an insufferable asshat?

Say it, just say it in a tasteful manner that iterates your points and illustrates your feeling on the matter.

Is that really so hard? I mean, yeah it's easy to be an asshole on an anonymous forum, but that doesn't mean we have to through civility out the window :/
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« Reply #247 on: February 23, 2013, 08:52:04 AM »

Wow, just wow.

I am all up for civil discourse. Hell, I thrive on it. I have to say that this thread is getting quite hostile though.

hostile? maybe you should read the thread from the beginning. i'm not interested in a civil conversation with you when your point boils down to the exact same thing the mrms have already said: "im all for rights and i pretend to understand but lol quit bitching." thats not exactly a conversation, bub. so how about you be civil? no one was "bitching" until idiots like you showed up.

and i'd love for this thread to never be split lol. so if you want to discuss the fucking playstation you'll be FORCED TO READ DA FEMISNISMSMS like how those kotaku commenters were totally FORCED TO READ THOSE ARTICLES
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feminazi
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« Reply #248 on: February 23, 2013, 08:59:44 AM »

i'm apparently required to respond to dumb shit like this post by _Tommo_ kindly. if he's not serious enough to even try to understand the issue, or read the thread, then he's not worth having a discussion with.

so uhm, in the case of the PS4 situation what's the solution there?

Putting random women there just because?
Excluding relevant men because the quotas have to be met?
Maybe while we're at it we can exclude sexy women by committee rating because they would be objectifying the women's appearance otherwise.

IMO everything that strips an individual of its qualities making some non-chosen label more important than his individual qualities, such as "male" or "female", "white" or "black", is racist doesn't respect the people you're using it to address...
and feminists are again doing a big disservice to their cause being the first ones that judge an individual purely upon its being male or female.

If 99% of the top executives in sony is male, the problem isn't the conference not having the mandatory female quota but everywhere from CS courses devoid of girls to companies... this kind of rants won't make anything better.
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SuperDisk
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« Reply #249 on: February 23, 2013, 09:11:19 AM »

You say the weirdest stuff _e_va. Why not just calm down a bit?
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feminazi
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« Reply #250 on: February 23, 2013, 09:13:37 AM »

why should i listen to you
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SuperDisk
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« Reply #251 on: February 23, 2013, 09:18:03 AM »

I guess you don't really have to, but calmness is nice sometimes.
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The Monster King
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« Reply #252 on: February 23, 2013, 09:18:43 AM »

why are the mens rights guys always like loli anime shit
like you think somehow people cant already see your obsession with 2d little girls that act like youre their sexual big brothers or whatever other twisted ideal of a woman you might have is sick

also dont talk to anyone who starts babbling about a group's "agenda" those people are always crazy

"Rights" are a bit of a misnomer. But regarding male discrimination, some less bias towards women in the issues of divorce, domestic violence and rape would be nice for a start. Women on average get off much better on the first issue (I know there are exceptions, my own mother got relatively screwed over when divorcing my father)

like you have to make a particular effort to be that level of dumbo, do you actually know people like that around you who you can actually call good people? The only example you mention is actually of the reverse ahahaha

its like you guys decide that whatever women might be saying online is false or stupid, because your anime girlfriend never would isnt she the sweetest!!!

like the twitter #1reasonwhy was shoved off as EVERYONE HAS IT BAD whining by these noobos despite being sometimes really extreme examples of sexism that would never happen in any workplace

also they are all REALLY TERRIFIED of their toys (videogames) somehow RADICALLY CHANGING because of more women, like if dragons and magic swords are going to stop being a thing or whatever because these dumbo nerds actually BELIEVE women want to make games like garden simulators or whatever
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poe
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« Reply #253 on: February 23, 2013, 09:21:58 AM »

So this is kinda turning into an absolute shitstorm and I'm going to lock it before more people say offensive things.
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