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TIGSource ForumsDeveloperBusinessReliable Programmers? Where?
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PR
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« on: March 27, 2013, 08:28:17 AM »

Hi. I found this site to be very resourceful for bringing some light into questions I had. After sometime going offline I decided to register and get maybe direct answers or even better maybe find a reliable affordable programmer! Also, maybe my story helps others in a similar position in their game business.

About 20 years ago I published my first board game, and graphically designed a few more along the way. everything went fine, and I was in control of all steps of manufacturing, assembly and distribution. About a year ago noticing that it is much cheaper, faster and with farther reach to create games for pc/mobile apps on a computer than to make them on printed hard paper, buying pieces, assembling them, distributing them, etc, I decided to give it try to the trend of developing my own online/mobile games.

I have 6 games graphically ready to go with illustrations, rules, text, icons, credits, etc. Because I needed them to be launched at about the same time frame (preliminarily end of March 2013... lol), I went to sites like freelancer, elance, guru, odesk, staff and started looking for game programmers, either individuals or companies. I posted projects well described (like the latest I revoked the award https://www.freelancer.com/projects/iPhone-Android/Game-for-Android-iPhone-Game.html) and they were awarded to those who bid best under a small budget and that I thought I could trust. Some from overseas others from local US.

After providing all the parts required to start/finish the game, days and weeks go by to create the first mockup to test if they got the basics game rules. Some keep the story that they're working on it, some simply decide to disappear without further notice. In the mean time, months have passed and I got nowhere. Some got some money in advance and then run away, others simply wasted my time. As you can imagine, I posted a "not recommended" or "incomplete report" in their profiles so other people will think twice before hiring them. 7 instances in 6 months! Is there a site where I can hire a game programmer that I can trust and performs?

So far, only 1 is doing a good job, but because I decided to give the chance to a newby I'm ok with his time delays. He has delivered so far almost finish products and he's eager to show he can do it.

Only 1 game is about to be finished, and the others no one is working on them. 1 out 8 game programmers turned out ok. Is this normal?

Are there any reliable programmers out there? Please, let me know where??? Because I need one! LOL
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motorherp
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« Reply #1 on: March 27, 2013, 08:40:43 AM »

You're only paying $500USD for someone to code an entire game from scratch and expect 6 months worth of post development support with that aswell and you want a reliable programmer?  That's where you're going wrong.  If you want someone proffesional then stop being a tight arse and pay proffesional rates.
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PR
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« Reply #2 on: March 27, 2013, 08:44:00 AM »

Yes. But the point is that those people do agree with the budget, and also there are places in the world where that amount is 2 months of salary or more...
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Rocket
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« Reply #3 on: March 27, 2013, 08:44:49 AM »

You're only paying $500USD for someone to code an entire game from scratch and expect 6 months worth of post development support with that aswell and you want a reliable programmer?  That's where you're going wrong.  If you want someone proffesional then stop being a tight arse and pay proffesional rates.

This ^,  you can't expect a programmer to work on someone else project for an extended period of time with no proper compensation.  The only time a programmer would actually stick around for chicken feed is if your helping him on his project, but I don't think this is reserved to programmers only I believe a lot of people might be this way.  Best case scenario would be to find someone driven who actually WANTS to build the same type of game you are.
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motorherp
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« Reply #4 on: March 27, 2013, 08:50:54 AM »

Yes. But the point is that those people do agree with the budget, and also there are places in the world where that amount is 2 months of salary or more...

The point is that only unreliable programmers seem to be agreeing with that budget.  Reliable proffesionals wouldn't touch it with a bargepole.
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PR
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« Reply #5 on: March 27, 2013, 08:55:15 AM »

 This ^,  you can't expect a programmer to work on someone else project for an extended period of time with no proper compensation.[/quote]
The programmer has always the choice to take or not take the project pending on description, type and budget.
If someone accepts the terms why not keeping their word and work to the end?
I have done many other projects with other professionals and have no issues whatsoever... why programmers?
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nospoon
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« Reply #6 on: March 27, 2013, 09:56:21 AM »

It's normal - you are trying to get some work done almost for free, so why would you expect any decent programmer to work on it.

I mean, even in 3rd word countries, 500$ for a month of work + 6 months support is just too low for anyone to take it seriously.
So you get what you pay for - crappy programmers Smiley

I work on elance sometimes, (I'm from Poland, so 1000$ = decent salary).
So, 500$ is a decent sum of money, but I can just get better offers than this.

Also - you expect to get a 3rd world country programmer, who is cheap (so probably just starting), and you want iOS + Android support - where people like this just don't have iPhone (or android) to test on.

I'd say 600-1000$ without the 6 month support, ( or only bugfixes + paid feature adding if needed), where you would also help the programmer sometimes (with bugtesting or something) might get you there. And it would actually be a medicore/decent offer.
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Rocket
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« Reply #7 on: March 27, 2013, 09:59:23 AM »

Like motorherp said " Reliable proffesionals wouldn't touch it with a bargepole.", you get what you pay for, a professional programmer could get a much better rate than what you offer so why would they choose to wok with you?  So you end up attracting people at the bottom of the barrel
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PR
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« Reply #8 on: March 27, 2013, 11:28:03 AM »

Three people were hired from USA. They turn out to be the same attitude as from any other place. Not because of the money paid, but simply because they were irresponsible. My budget was $500, but nobody said they were hired at that amount.
Besides, if you take the job, and if you think your hourly rate is $25/hr then provide for 20 hrs of work... or not?
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siskavard
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« Reply #9 on: March 27, 2013, 12:07:12 PM »

There are snakes like you in every industry.

You get what you pay for.
« Last Edit: March 27, 2013, 03:19:34 PM by siskavard » Logged
J-Snake
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« Reply #10 on: March 27, 2013, 12:08:21 PM »

Programming can be fairly expensive. Expect many to underestimate the required work for the offered money. Try to look up what your programmers already accomplished before you pay them.
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PR
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« Reply #11 on: March 27, 2013, 12:11:49 PM »

Programming can be fairly expensive. Expect many to underestimate the required work for the offered money. Try to look up what your programmers already accomplished before you pay them.

Thank you that is a good tip Smiley
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Schrompf
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« Reply #12 on: March 27, 2013, 12:14:00 PM »

Also, don't forget that estimating the amount of work is a task in itsself. I'm only guessing here, but it might be that you expected too much. Maybe your task description sounded like "three rules, two moving objects" and then grew with every week by "oh, also that rule. And make this info appear top left, too". Projects tend to grow like this, and people do leave the boat if they realize this.

Yes, it's unprofessional. Yes, they might simply be idiots - they're a lot of them in any profession. But it might also be you.
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PR
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« Reply #13 on: March 27, 2013, 01:17:21 PM »

Yes, it's unprofessional. Yes, they might simply be idiots - they're a lot of them in any profession. But it might also be you.
Totally agree Smiley
Btw, did I mention that the games I have does not require 3D modeling or similar? Imagine you're playing a pure board game with similar parts/behaviors like parcheesi for the simple ones or a monopoly boardgame for the more complicated?
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Muz
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« Reply #14 on: March 27, 2013, 04:17:45 PM »

As someone from a medium living costs country, I'd say $10/hour is enough to make me quit my job and work full time freelancing. Some people from India might be willing to work for half as much Tongue

But I work for a mobile app company. We've got a bunch of freelancers and most of them were useless. Heck, we've tried to hire people but most people working full time are hopeless as well.

It's kind of hard to see what with all the talent around TIGS, but programming is a difficult job. I find that most people are just not interested in it. A lot of people expect it to be easy, reliable money, but it's not, and jump into things like freelancing and Master's degrees when they find that it's not as easy as they hoped.

I find that the people who actually survive over a year or so programming demand a much higher salary. There's certainly a very high demand for those people, and a skilled programmer can survive full time on programming for event management.

Plus freelancers tend to be near the bottom of the barrel - either desperate to earn money faster with minimum work or not capable of keeping a full time job, either through incompetence or ego.

Your best bet might be indie game developers who need the money to live and don't want to be tied down. Or those who want to gain a little experience. But honestly, I keep turning down very easy (<70 hours) projects at $1000; you'll have a hard time matching those offers unless you're offering more than just money  Wink.
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ANtY
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« Reply #15 on: March 27, 2013, 06:25:24 PM »

Yes. But the point is that those people do agree with the budget, and also there are places in the world where that amount is 2 months of salary or more...
and those are only unreliable ppl, you can't expect anything from them
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PR
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« Reply #16 on: March 28, 2013, 06:34:09 AM »

Thank you MUZ and ANtY for your responses. You're right, and the conversation has almost hit the right spot. I agree economic reasons and load of work are issues to find people, but once you accept the job then reliability is a different story. There where some questions that have been answered, but the most important ones are still untouched.

At one point I tried a different approach to the issue, by trying to team up with an IT person from the office I used to work. But he was into Networks not programming. I believe in crediting/collaborating/partnering with anyone who can actually contribute to the work. I'm here to look for solutions and also provide examples of factual wrong things that can happen to those starting businesses.

The key point on my original post is: "Are there any reliable programmers out there? Please, let me know where??? Because I need one!" Maybe I should of posted it in a different section... LOL
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Udderdude
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« Reply #17 on: March 28, 2013, 06:44:38 AM »

You aren't going to have reliable programmers flocking to you by posting about your unreasonable demands .. D:
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PR
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« Reply #18 on: March 28, 2013, 06:48:45 AM »

You aren't going to have reliable programmers flocking to you by posting about your unreasonable demands .. D:
asking for solutions, not demanding anything LOL
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Udderdude
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« Reply #19 on: March 28, 2013, 06:49:53 AM »

You aren't going to have reliable programmers flocking to you by posting about your unreasonable demands .. D:
asking for solutions, not demanding anything LOL

Pay more, don't expect free support.  Problem solved.
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