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[Blademasterbobo]

i don't really get your "fire from the hip" thing, i literally never used the iron sights. i didn't even know they existed till like the last hour of the game.

[AshfordPride]

i don't really get your "fire from the hip" thing, i literally never used the iron sights. i didn't even know they existed till like the last hour of the game.

I have to!  The first time I found an article of clothing for a certain slot, it increased iron sight damage by 25% and reduced hip fire damage by 25%...  I can't take it off until I find another piece of clothing for that slot! 

Also, the auto-aim is fucking bananas.  You score instantly headshots with this shit, to the point where if I fight seems to be going on too long I just sort of start poppin' fools in the noggin with a carbine.

[Blademasterbobo]

the clothing system was stupid as hell. i didn't really like any of the side stuff. i barely found like 2 pieces of clothing for each slot. i didn't find anything for the torso slot until the last few hours of the game. i was pretty thorough searching for junk, and i barely ever found locked stuff, and i never found any of those side mission things, no matter how hard i looked. (at most, i'd find a key, or the place you needed a key for.) it felt like all of that stuff could've been totally removed and the game would've played almost exactly the same.

[deathtotheweird]

Is it nitpicking for me to say that iron sights combined with auto-aim has entirely ruined the wonderful feeling of being able to fire from the hip in a dwindling world of games that allow you to do so? 

Yes, that is nitpicking. Also whining about the glowing locks (which you can turn off in the options menu), is nitpicking. They are very minor details in the game.

I played on 1999 mode so I'm not even sure if the auto-aim even exists. And even if it does, it really didn't do any favors for me as my hit-accuracy is admittedly pretty low. Iron sights seemed to slow down combat a bit too much for my liking, so I opted not to use it most of the time.

[shinygerbil]

Fallout: New Vegas is one of, if not my favorite video games.  And it's a buggy piece of shit rushed out entirely too early,and a spin-off of a game that I completely hate. 

Can I ask why?

If you found lots of things wrong with NV, why is it still your favourite game? Why do you still like it? and more to the point, why is it somehow not OK to like Binfinite despite its flaws?

--

Loot/item glint, auto aim, and dumb tutorial messages can and should be turned off - if you've ever actually played a video game before, then those things are not aimed at you. Respecting a player's intelligence and respecting a person's knowledge of game mechanics and controls are two very different things. If this were my first video game, then I'd probably want to use those things no matter how well-versed I am in turn of the century American history.

[AshfordPride]

Yes, that is nitpicking. Also whining about the glowing locks (which you can turn off in the options menu), is nitpicking. They are very minor details in the game.

When did it become a thing to make thing all obnoxiously glowly and then give you the option to turn it off.  I'm always afraid to do that, because it always leads to a point in the game where something was carelessly strewn about but the designers we're all like 'aaaaah, it's okay, it'll be lit up like fuckin' christmas when this asshole goes to find it!'.  And shit glowing is fine sometimes.  Just not like this.  I'm not nitpicking, I just have a problem with a severely instanced version of a minor mechanic in the gaOH NO IM A FUCKING ASSHOLE

I played on 1999 mode so I'm not even sure if the auto-aim even exists.

I'm on hard, here.  You can go 1999 from the start?  I thought you had to beat the game first.

[deathtotheweird]

Use the Konami code on the menu to unlock it. I assumed the game would be too easy on normal/hard so I just said #yolo and put it on 1999 mode to begin with. I don't regret the decision, even though 1999 mode isn't even harder than System Shock 2 was on normal. Meh.

Anyways there's very little need to have the glowly thing turned on. But I assume the reason for it is how cluttered environments are these days compared to in the past. So many props laying about that you can't use.

It's a problem old games suffer from as well. In System Shock 2 that are some specific consoles you have to use to get past Xerxes or something like that. You have to kill those cyberninja things, if you remember. Anyways you put the item in a computer, but the computers look just like any other random computer prop. So I spent about 30 minutes running around room to room trying to find out which computer I was supposed to put the thing in. I would have been grateful for a glowy thing there.

[AshfordPride]

Can I ask why?

Because it's the best RPG/FPS since Morrowind.

If you found lots of things wrong with NV, why is it still your favourite game? Why do you still like it? and more to the point, why is it somehow not OK to like Binfinite despite its flaws?

I feel like hating on New Vegas is like hating on Clerks for being in black and white.  It wasn't their fault, it wasn't a conscious choice, but ironically enough it was those constraints that ended up making it something iconic.  Look at Fallout 3, which was an absolute mess in terms of mechanics and narrative.  Then Obsidian is basically tossed the keys to daddy's car and told not to scratch it, and they just peel out of the driveway never looking back.  I can ignore things like shitty textures in New Vegas, or bugs, or quirks of the design because they seem like they were desperately attempted to be glossed over by everything else.

See, I guess that's the thing.  In a work of art, does the value it presents make up for the flaws, or do the flaws corrupt whatever value it might have had.  I think that's the easiest way to explain this without just going on and on and on about this.  Seriously, I've been deleting just paragraphs and paragraphs of me just GUSHING for all your sake here.

Loot/item glint, auto aim, and dumb tutorial messages can and should be turned off - if you've ever actually played a video game before, then those things are not aimed at you. Respecting a player's intelligence and respecting a person's knowledge of game mechanics and controls are two very different things. If this were my first video game, then I'd probably want to use those things no matter how well-versed I am in turn of the century American history.

I know I always yell at people when they try to compare mediums, but I feel like this assumption is really holding back the mediums potential.  The highest forms of artforms typically do assume that the person who is going to be taking it in probably has a fair bit of knowledge about the medium.  Books that deal with mature themes are not written at a level where anyone of any skill level can read them, and we consider the very idea of that to be an absolute absurdity.  Isn't it kind of important, that for the survival of the medium as an artform that we allow for a little bit of exclusivity and elitism to keep us from having to make sure that everything isn't palatable for the riff-raff?  

Use the Konami code on the menu to unlock it. I assumed the game would be too easy on normal/hard so I just said #yolo and put it on 1999 mode to begin with. I don't regret the decision, even though 1999 mode isn't even harder than System Shock 2 was on normal. Meh.

Fucking really?

Also, I heard the mode kind of just ends up making you being strapped for cash and ammo all the time.  Which is why I'm not playing on Hard on Bioshock 2 right now.

Anyways there's very little need to have the glowly thing turned on. But I assume the reason for it is how cluttered environments are these days compared to in the past. So many props laying about that you can't use.

I don't mind SOME glowy shit.  Like, how Bioshock games always made THE goal you had to get to covered in goal and surrounded by magic twinkles.  

But when everything glows in Bioshock it's just like OH LOOK AT THIS SHIT PICK IT THE FUCK UP MASH THAT F KEY WHO CARES WHAT IT IS JUST PICK IT UP HOLY SHIT BOOKER YOU JUST ATE A WHOLE PINEAPPLE  

[deathtotheweird]

I didn't find it a problem because I had disabled it from the start. So it's weird you're putting so much effort into attacking it. It's an option that you can disable, and the game is perfectly playable with it off. I only missed 1 voxophone the entire game, and got all the ciphers.

1999 mode does leave you strapped for cash, but not ammo. Well yes for ammo if you are intent on keeping the same guns. Upgrading guns is expensive and not really worth it, since you can only carry two at a time and their ammo pools are low.

It's only worth upgrading guns (in 99 mode) if you don't plan on using vigors much. Since you can spend all your money on ammo and gun upgrades. It's impossible to balance upgrading guns with vigors in this mode, so if you prefer a balance you won't really like 1999 mode.

[AshfordPride]

I didn't know you could disable it.  I'll consider it.

I'm just kind of harping on the one instance with the lockpick being right next to the lock.  Not even the glowing shit, I just have a real problem with round peg, round hole puzzles. 

[TheLastBanana]

Is that even a puzzle? It's just introducing you to the mechanic of having Elizabeth unlock doors. I can understand how you'd be bothered by the fact that every door is labelled with "this will take X lockpicks" — that certainly does suggest pretty strongly that you're playing a game with clear-cut numeric systems — but being pissed off at it for being an easy "puzzle" just seems weird.

[SundownKid]

I don't expect the character of Booker to do anything else but be a careless psychopathic murderer. That's who he is. There is no dissonance here, Fallsburg.

The violence isn't really atypical for this guy, so it's more relevant in Infinite than it is in something like Deus Ex Human Revolution. Adam Jensen busting into a police station and killing every cop doesn't make sense, Booker selfishly killing thousands of Columbians to erase a debt does make sense. After all- he brutally murdered a bunch of Indians just to prove he had no Indian in him (he was suspected of having Indian relatives).

The problem is that no human being could ever kill thousands of people directly unless they are a trained sniper killing them from thousands of yards away. Even when you add magic to the mix, unless they are a complete psychopath they would never do it to that many people with no guilt afterwards. Even in Spec Ops, Walker pretty much goes crazy when he kills more than a bunch of people.

So, by necessity, these characters have to be psychos and not have any moral depth to them. Rather than saying "oh, it makes sense because he's evil and selfish", ask why an evil and selfish protagonist is really necessary for this rather than just a regular guy trying to rescue this woman.

This article adds to my point. The racism of the city is a simplistic scenario created to cast everyone there as evil, therefore the MC can go genocidal without guilt, not to analyze it as a story.

[deathtotheweird]

Not really. None of the people you kill have identities, so it's unfair to label every enemy you kill as a racist. The game doesn't even try to do that, so I'm not sure what you or that writer of the article is talking about.

> they would never do it to that many people with no guilt afterwards.

Elizabeth asks Booker after dealing with Slate "Do you ever get used to it?" and he replies "Faster than you can imagine".

>  ask why an evil and selfish protagonist is really necessary for this rather than just a regular guy trying to rescue this woman.

You're really missing the point of Bioshock Infinite by saying this. If Booker/Comstock wasn't evil and selfish then Columbia wouldn't exist, and we would have no game. Like it or not, this is the story Ken Levine chose. Anything else wouldn't be Bioshock Infinite.

[nekokoneko]

On a side note i really can't fucking stand seeing people run what looks like a connect the dots between bins/chairs/desks as they hunt for assorted loot the pilfer. It feels like such a cheap way to "reward" exploration, and i don't even want to call it exploration at all as its such a mindless process.

And the shitty difficulty scaling is laughable. After enduring 5hours of the original Bioshock on hard and realising that i never have to use ammo or health because theres no penalty on death i decided to never bother with that kind of thing again. I realise that you lose things in infinite but its still besides the point, scaling damage/health isn't really increasing the difficulty at all.

You design it from the ground up, you don't add halfarsed sliders to pander to people that want a supposed challenge.

[Fallsburg]

I don't expect the character of Booker to do anything else but be a careless psychopathic murderer. That's who he is. There is no dissonance here, Fallsburg.

I don't buy it.  Or at least, it's way too fucking subtle for a game that doesn't show a ton of subtlety. 
On second thought, I can see it, but I still think that it's way too fucking subtle for the general population, and while I'm uneasy saying art should be judged by how it is liable to be interpreted, I'm probably more uneasy by reading too much meaning and forethought into a game that doesn't seem to deserve it.  A game that drops themes, plots, and mechanics regularly throughout its run doesn't seem to deserve such consideration.

[Dustin Gunn]

I don't expect the character of Booker to do anything else but be a careless psychopathic murderer. That's who he is. There is no dissonance here, Fallsburg.

I don't buy it.  Or at least, it's way too fucking subtle for a game that doesn't show a ton of subtlety. 
On second thought, I can see it, but I still think that it's way too fucking subtle for the general population, and while I'm uneasy saying art should be judged by how it is liable to be interpreted, I'm probably more uneasy by reading too much meaning and forethought into a game that doesn't seem to deserve it.  A game that drops themes, plots, and mechanics regularly throughout its run doesn't seem to deserve such consideration.

Man have you even heard of the battle of wounded knee?

[deathtotheweird]

How is it subtle? They don't exactly hide Booker's background of his brutality at Wounded Knee and his work for the Pinkertons (of which he got fired for being too rough).

Not to mention Comstock (essentially the same person), a man who would only be satisfied when the entire Earth is destroyed.

If you think that's subtle then you are mentally deficient.

[shinygerbil]

I feel like hating on New Vegas is like hating on Clerks for being in black and white.  It wasn't their fault, it wasn't a conscious choice, but ironically enough it was those constraints that ended up making it something iconic.  Look at Fallout 3, which was an absolute mess in terms of mechanics and narrative.  Then Obsidian is basically tossed the keys to daddy's car and told not to scratch it, and they just peel out of the driveway never looking back.  I can ignore things like shitty textures in New Vegas, or bugs, or quirks of the design because they seem like they were desperately attempted to be glossed over by everything else.

See, I guess that's the thing.  In a work of art, does the value it presents make up for the flaws, or do the flaws corrupt whatever value it might have had.  I think that's the easiest way to explain this without just going on and on and on about this.  Seriously, I've been deleting just paragraphs and paragraphs of me just GUSHING for all your sake here.

For the record I'm not hating on NV - I am actually currently in the middle (near the beginning) of my first playthrough. But yeah, that is what it boils down to - flaws can and will be overlooked, forgiven, embraced if the rest of the game has that certain quality. For me, Binfinite hits the spot - but of course one man's meat is another's poison etc.

I played Binfinite on Hard and, while I didn't mind the extra challenge, I found it to mostly be a very artificial difficulty increase, and I don't think I would have regretted just playing on Normal. (I also had my own artificial difficulty increase - namely my PC not being quite good enough to run it on high settings but me not wanting to settle for medium graphics. So I had low framerates and mid-combat asset streaming aplenty.) Essentially you're playing the same fights with the numbers heavily skewed against you

I know I always yell at people when they try to compare mediums, but I feel like this assumption is really holding back the mediums potential.  The highest forms of artforms typically do assume that the person who is going to be taking it in probably has a fair bit of knowledge about the medium.  Books that deal with mature themes are not written at a level where anyone of any skill level can read them, and we consider the very idea of that to be an absolute absurdity.  Isn't it kind of important, that for the survival of the medium as an artform that we allow for a little bit of exclusivity and elitism to keep us from having to make sure that everything isn't palatable for the riff-raff?

Yeah, I see what you mean - but I still feel two things here: firstly, games are still not that mature as a medium. Sure, we've come leaps and bounds - and sure, I want to see the medium grow and mature - but I don't think we're anywhere close yet. That's not really an excuse on its own, but secondly, FPS controls are kinda unintuitive for a non-gamer. If I try to sit my girlfriend in front of an FPS - console or PC - she has a lot of trouble. I feel like the interface of games will always be a barrier of entry, no matter how small.

(not that either of those points *really* excuse Binfinite for having the tutorial on by default, but hey.)

But when everything glows in Bioshock it's just like OH LOOK AT THIS SHIT PICK IT THE FUCK UP MASH THAT F KEY WHO CARES WHAT IT IS JUST PICK IT UP HOLY SHIT BOOKER YOU JUST ATE A WHOLE PINEAPPLE 

Maybe it only happens on Hard, but later in the game there was plenty of rotten fruit in bins which removes health if you eat it. Mashing F was no longer viable. I actually thought that was a neat little touch to punish people for just mashing F and eating packets of cigarettes whole etc.

[s0]

FPS controls are kinda unintuitive for a non-gamer. If I try to sit my girlfriend in front of an FPS - console or PC - she has a lot of trouble. I feel like the interface of games will always be a barrier of entry, no matter how small.

i think what he means is that this is analogous to how someone who's only read harry potter and twilight would probably have trouble reading e.g. gravity's rainbow. and if we're treating games as "art" (oh shit here we go again) according to how "art" is currently institutionalized in our society, "accessibility" wouldn't matter.

and i think he kinda has a point. all this talk about "expanding the audience" for games like that's a goal in itself goes to show how we're still thinking of games in mass market terms rather than in terms of cultural merit.

tho the problem is that 1)"hardcore" games are still mass market games and are still made to shift units more than anything and 2)even most so-called "high art" (in whatever art form) ultimately still panders to an audience.

[shinygerbil]

Yeah I don't deny he has a point, but I don't think we've reached the point where games "with pretentions" should just remove the tutorial. I don't want to think of games in mass market terms but, well, that's the point they're still at.

Also controls are an artificial and superficial barrier of entry. It's like if books had really needlessly complicated covers which required a mini tutorial just to get them open so you could read them. Or look at film (haha pun) which basically, all you have to do is look and listen to it. It's not intrinsically hard to just use. Learning how to understand films, direction, cinematography, etc are not really analogous to basic video game controls. A book can be really inaccessible but you can still physically look at the words on the pages. The only thing that is really equivalent is "you put the disc in with the label facing upwards and then you press the Play button".

(EDIT: at least as far as standard FPS controls go anyway, though other games can definitely make control schemes a part of their identity)

So I don't see the tutorial in itself as a crime, though I wish it were off by default.