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TIGSource ForumsDeveloperAudioHarsh Criticism Thread
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thersus
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« Reply #20 on: April 23, 2013, 02:15:25 PM »

Can you tell I hate compression with a passion? Smiley

Yes, I do hate them too. But do you know when you get those feelings that "I should try this, even if I know it will be shit, just to know how shitty will it be"? It was basically how it went down on this track. It's like I deliberately killed the frequency range in favor of some aesthetics. But mostly, because without the compressors and limiters, everything was TOO dynamic... like, I couldn't hear a music, it was just textures floating everywhere. But somewhere in the process, it suddenly turned from delicate textures to compression-war-driven mastering.
But that's why I asked you guys to review it, because I needed someone to make consistent harsh comments about it hahaha
I think I'll remix/remaster it and show you again. It will not get much better, because I still lack audio monitors, but hopely it would be better.
Then, I'll want some critique on the piece structure (which is simple on purpose, I was trying to be trip hoppy).

Thanks!!!

Edit: I know that better equipment doesn't make the song better, but it would be really helpful.
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ZackParrish
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« Reply #21 on: April 23, 2013, 02:20:14 PM »

If you ever get some cash to fork out to something to help you with mixing, I recommend AKG K240S headphones.  I've used a lot of headphones, and have done a lot of research, and those have the flattest frequency response I've come across, which makes them pretty legit in my book.  Not to mention the adapter on the cord is screw on, so you don't have to worry about it being yanked loose if you use it, and it lets you use studio headphones with an 8th inch jack.
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thersus
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« Reply #22 on: April 23, 2013, 02:33:31 PM »

I was REALLY thinking about buying one of these AKG Headphones (not sure if this exact model), they're way more into budget than bookshelf monitors. I was just afraid that they would not be good for this purpose, but if you're saying they are good, I think I can trust :D
And for audio interfaces, do you have a suggestion? I was thinking of some onboard one, since I will do most of the audio stuff on my desktop hackintosh, but the word hackintosh also says that maybe the usb ones might be less perilous xD
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« Reply #23 on: April 23, 2013, 02:42:14 PM »

M-Audio makes some pretty nice Audio Devices, and they all have ASIO drivers so the latency on them is minimal.  They also are reasonably priced considering their quality.  USB/Firewire interfaces are okay, but they don't really help much for buffering since it's still heavily reliant on your PC's performance.  Internal devices will help remove a lot of the strain on your CPU.

http://www.zzounds.com/item--AKGK240STU

Those are the phones I use, but you can probably find a better deal elsewhere.  I think I paid $80 for mine about 7 years ago.
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thersus
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« Reply #24 on: April 23, 2013, 02:55:29 PM »

Your headphone is exactly the one I was thinking on buying. But in brazilian stores, it costs around the equivalent to 330 dollars LOL. But I might try to import one of those (just like almost anything I buy nowadays).

Many thanks, your harsh critique was very constructive  Tongue
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GavinHarrisonSounds
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« Reply #25 on: April 23, 2013, 11:56:24 PM »

M-Audio makes some pretty nice Audio Devices, and they all have ASIO drivers so the latency on them is minimal.  They also are reasonably priced considering their quality.  USB/Firewire interfaces are okay, but they don't really help much for buffering since it's still heavily reliant on your PC's performance.  Internal devices will help remove a lot of the strain on your CPU.

http://www.zzounds.com/item--AKGK240STU

Those are the phones I use, but you can probably find a better deal elsewhere.  I think I paid $80 for mine about 7 years ago.

Wow, I can't believe they are advertising the open back as a plus point for recording vocals?!?!
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GavinHarrisonSounds
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« Reply #26 on: April 23, 2013, 11:58:37 PM »

Hey, I'd be interested to get your thoughts on this track:

https://soundcloud.com/gavinharrison/cyberstream-fugitive

It's the main theme for a game still in production, nearing the finishing stages of producing the music so would appreciate any feedback!

Thanks,
Gavin.

Your turn. Smiley

First thoughts, do more with the sustained parts.  Currently the only thing changing are the staccato strings, and it would be nice to hear the sustain parts change a smidge at least before you hit a minute into the song and things start to open up more. The low mids/high bass that is sustaining for the first 1:30 or so is a bit present on my headphones.  Around 2 minutes onwards it sounds like you want multiple things going on, but nothing is taking a back seat and it's hard to distinguish all the parts really well.  Could be a simple fix with some EQ work but I think more so if you kicked the overall volume of the instrumentation back a bit and brought out the moving portions of each part as they are moving and then have them die back into the mix during the longer sustains it would help spread the mix out more.  Right now it's everything playing the same volume and not much expression pushing through.  I think if you can push back that low mid/high bass tone that's dominating the spotlight at the moment, you can bring on the high mids and treb more and make the more melodic parts stand out a bit more.

Cool thanks for the feedback, that's great!  Personally I'm pretty happy with how the end part shapes up but definitely taking on board the comments for the intro section...will have to think about that.  If I can be cheeky, I'd like any thoughts on this song:

https://soundcloud.com/gavinharrison/dream-the-dream

Thanks in advance!
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GavinHarrisonSounds
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« Reply #27 on: April 24, 2013, 12:13:37 AM »

First of all, is this GavinHarrisonSounds the Porcupine Tree drummer?? ;P

Second, I have a track which I want Harsh Criticisim: https://soundcloud.com/pixtermination/her-erotic-mind-is-full-of
This one is the latest I completely worked (composed, recorded and all that stuff), it is a departure from my older work where I would put emphasis on composition and leaving it as midi, and here I tried to work more on layering and timbre. The quality is rather low because I don't have professional recording/monitoring equipment, and I think I overused the limiters and compressors.

Thanks in advance, when I got more time I will try to give some thoughts on your songs too.

And the next contestant is...YOU.  Evil

If you are using a compressor.  STOP.  Compression has it's place in music, but has to be used right.  This track is really loud, and certain frequencies are causing others to "drop" in the mix.  Pay attention to the kick, notice how it kind of makes other pitches "drop" a tad, like someone is punching you in the ear. Man... my ears hurt. Gotta take a break for a minute...

*lowers volume*

The compression basically results in a bass heavy track, and makes the average listener writhe in pain because their ear drums are being punched.  I know you said you might've overdone the limiters and compressors, but I couldn't help but comment on it. 

Try and avoid using them... EVER.  If you do, use it on one part.  If you do each part right, really work the mix the right way from the ground up, then ultimately you can avoid using a compressor/limiter.  If the vocals in a track are highly dynamic and need to be more constant... compression.  A guitar has a quiet part, needs to be more constant, compression.  If there are no real issues regarding the active dynamics of a track, compression is a good way to kill your mix.  It's basically saying "Hey computer, take all these frequencies, and raise them up at the same time, but put a CAP on this db level and don't let them go further."  When you do that, it starts cutting your high mids, treb, and then you get stuck with dense low mids and bass resulting in a muddy mix.  Having a hard time concentrating on the rest of it because I'm not sure how it would actually sound at a normal dB level. 

Can you tell I hate compression with a passion? Smiley

Just as a side to this, compression is an extremely useful tool when used in the right way...For instance, you want punchy drums?  Compression.  Also, using compression will not result in a more bass heavy mix, though I would be interested to hear your thoughts on why it might as it could be useful information...that should probably be saved for another thread though!  Compression and limiting are two extremely different things and should be used as such.
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Zoe Coleman Music
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« Reply #28 on: April 24, 2013, 01:17:27 AM »

Ooooo this is such a good idea!

I wrote this the other day https://soundcloud.com/zoecoleman/b

I was wondering how it sounds production wise, as I know thats one part I could be better at and it makes the difference between something a bit average and something that sounds really professional!

I opted not to use a compressor coz I felt it took away from the nice volume swells but wasn't sure if I did the right thing?

So yeah, feel free to dissect it when you have a moment. :D
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« Reply #29 on: April 24, 2013, 02:35:53 AM »

Really like the idea of this thread. I'm always looking for a critical view on my tracks so I will definitely post some stuff up soon.
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« Reply #30 on: April 24, 2013, 08:15:22 AM »

Great idea for a thread!

Heres my latest piece.
https://soundcloud.com/iamscottgraves/space-exploration

It was written for an arcade-style space shooter, I wanted to have some 8/16bit elements in there from the old arcade machines, mixed in with some modern sounds.

The sudden change in the end section is when the boss enters in game. (events happen at a certain time frame, rather than say after XX enemies have been killed etc)

This is the first piece I've written in this style, so I'd love to hear your thoughts.
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ZackParrish
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« Reply #31 on: April 24, 2013, 01:53:11 PM »

Just as a side to this, compression is an extremely useful tool when used in the right way...For instance, you want punchy drums?  Compression.  Also, using compression will not result in a more bass heavy mix, though I would be interested to hear your thoughts on why it might as it could be useful information...that should probably be saved for another thread though!  Compression and limiting are two extremely different things and should be used as such.

Was referring to it causing the bass heaviness in the track mainly in times where you use it on the entire mix, especially in cases where you are using a classic compressor and not a multi-frequency compressor(which I still shun).

The biggest problem I see people using compression(wrongly) is just trying to make the music loud, and typically speaking the high mids will end up being cutoff, then the low mids, while the high bass/low bass and treb continues to rise.  What happens though, is since it doesn't take much to boost the levels of the bass, you end up with a track loaded with it.  Take into account the attack/release of the compression, it can cause frequencies to phase in and out as the bass starts to peak here and there. I'm a firm believer in only using compression as a last resort in cases where you just don't have another option, like vocals that don't need to be really dynamic, and should maintain a consistent volume throughout.  On a track by track basis it makes a lot more sense to use one, and it can boost bass pretty high, same with drum parts(which often thickens the bass because the treble is usually killing the competition because of the cymbals/snare), etc.  If the initial take/recording of a single track is fixable with compression, by all means.  If an entire mix is bad, you are better off remixing everything from the ground up to better balance things, because compression will not save a shitty mix. :\

I hate limiters too but most DAWs have one built in it seems.  That's probably a good thing though because most of my projects are always hitting around +4 to +9dB ... o_o

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ZackParrish
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« Reply #32 on: April 24, 2013, 02:05:21 PM »

Hey, I'd be interested to get your thoughts on this track:

https://soundcloud.com/gavinharrison/cyberstream-fugitive

It's the main theme for a game still in production, nearing the finishing stages of producing the music so would appreciate any feedback!

Thanks,
Gavin.

If I had to take a wild guess I'd say you used a bit of compression on this track. Smiley  At least on the piano it seems pretty heavily compressed. I like soft timbres of a piano but I prefer the natural timbre's volume boosted as oppose to compressing it. A couple of the pitches it plays aren't TOO overbearing but they do kind of annoy my drums. The drums that come in sound really present in the mix, whilst everything else sounds pretty spacious and open.  Sounds pretty centered percussion wise too, like I hear some ethnic drum pounding away in the center, and then the snare right on top of it.  I think they'd be more beneficial to the overall sound if they had more depth of field(reverb... delay... etc... whatever), and were panned a part a bit, or a bit more if they are panned at all.  I think the sustained strings and brass could use a bit more variation from just holding one note for 4 bars and then changing.  Sounds like the staccato strings are dead center too, I'd suggest moving them away from the percussion a bit.  Everything else is spread out so much but you have all this rhythm dead center it seems.  If you can broaden the rhythm I think it would open up the track quite a bit right there, maybe move the sustained stuff in a bit more(sounds pretty wide).  You change chords quite a bit towards the end, but the changes to me seem rather dull... not because of the CHORDS you used, but because of how generic the transition from one to the other is.  Goes back to me asking you to do more than just hold one note for several beats/measures. When you are building into a climax, you need to MOVE towards the climax, and the parts just aren't... moving.  I don't really know a better way of explaining what I'm talking about, but I'm sure you get the idea?  :p

Your turn. Smiley

First thoughts, do more with the sustained parts.  Currently the only thing changing are the staccato strings, and it would be nice to hear the sustain parts change a smidge at least before you hit a minute into the song and things start to open up more. The low mids/high bass that is sustaining for the first 1:30 or so is a bit present on my headphones.  Around 2 minutes onwards it sounds like you want multiple things going on, but nothing is taking a back seat and it's hard to distinguish all the parts really well.  Could be a simple fix with some EQ work but I think more so if you kicked the overall volume of the instrumentation back a bit and brought out the moving portions of each part as they are moving and then have them die back into the mix during the longer sustains it would help spread the mix out more.  Right now it's everything playing the same volume and not much expression pushing through.  I think if you can push back that low mid/high bass tone that's dominating the spotlight at the moment, you can bring on the high mids and treb more and make the more melodic parts stand out a bit more.

Cool thanks for the feedback, that's great!  Personally I'm pretty happy with how the end part shapes up but definitely taking on board the comments for the intro section...will have to think about that.  If I can be cheeky, I'd like any thoughts on this song:

https://soundcloud.com/gavinharrison/dream-the-dream

Thanks in advance!
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ZackParrish
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« Reply #33 on: April 24, 2013, 02:13:00 PM »

Ooooo this is such a good idea!

I wrote this the other day https://soundcloud.com/zoecoleman/b

I was wondering how it sounds production wise, as I know thats one part I could be better at and it makes the difference between something a bit average and something that sounds really professional!

I opted not to use a compressor coz I felt it took away from the nice volume swells but wasn't sure if I did the right thing?

So yeah, feel free to dissect it when you have a moment. :D

I listened to this earlier today on crap laptop speakers.  Don't worry, I'm giving it a second chance(no way I would judge something by those crap speakers...).

Your panning work is painful.  Sounds as though everything is pretty far left, or far right... with the center neglected.  The harp sound as though the panning shifts depending on the pitch, which would be okay if the harp was sitting right in front of me, but for a spacious mix it is a bit disorienting. 

For the strings I'd suggest reworking how they are positioned so you don't have parts solely to the left, and solely to the right.  At the very least put something in the middle to pull the two sides together more, right now I feel like a cellist is on my right side, and a group of violinists are on my left side, and a harp player is dancing around the room.  It also sounds like you normalized the track to a specific threshold... like 0dB or something.  The instruments mostly sound as though they are playing a rather soft timbre/dynamic, and their presence is pretty high.  I wouldn't suggest normalize it quite so high to keep the mid range frequencies from being so loud, maybe set your threshold lower to around -3/-6 dB depending on how much the mids bleed through. 
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Tipsheda
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« Reply #34 on: April 24, 2013, 02:22:32 PM »

I'd love to hear some criticism for one of my tracks.  I've always had the problem of not knowing how good my songs are because of how little and sappy comments I've gotten on them.  So here it is: https://soundcloud.com/tipsheda/a-dude-5-am .  It's not perfect, but it's one of my favorites.  It's suppose to be structured the way it is, too; just fyi.
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ZackParrish
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« Reply #35 on: April 24, 2013, 02:25:22 PM »

Great idea for a thread!

Heres my latest piece.
https://soundcloud.com/iamscottgraves/space-exploration

It was written for an arcade-style space shooter, I wanted to have some 8/16bit elements in there from the old arcade machines, mixed in with some modern sounds.

The sudden change in the end section is when the boss enters in game. (events happen at a certain time frame, rather than say after XX enemies have been killed etc)

This is the first piece I've written in this style, so I'd love to hear your thoughts.


I can't quite put a pin on it, but there is something making the mix really muddy.  The bass part isn't too present, it honestly sounds like there is a lot of "noise" in there somewhere and it's keeping the separation of all the parts from being as clean.  If I had to assume what it was, I'd point my finger at the drums, but I can kind of hear a similar issue in the very start of the track.  From :59 to a little past 2:00 I would explore more on developing the drums into the climax at 2:16.  Same goes for the climax at that part, the drums are kind of just following a "I just learned how to play drums" kind of rhythm with little to no variance on what they are playing. Not sure how you come up with some parts but I've always felt it helped me to just start beating relentlessly on the nearest objects(that aren't fragile) while the track is playing to kind of get a feel for what I'd LIKE the drums to do, and then do my best to achieve that same general vibe in the track.  The crash cymbal at the climax seems be a bit too much to me, I'd probably switch it to an open hihat or a ride cymbal instead of a crash.  If the music was consistently RAWRRRRRR... maybe keep a crash going, but since it's still rather subdued tonality wise, I wouldn't use it for more than accenting specific transition points.  

Just listened a 4th time on the intro, there's definitely noise in there.  If you can isolate what it is, and remove the noise, I think your track would clear up quite a bit in the total mix.
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Tipsheda
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« Reply #36 on: April 24, 2013, 02:26:44 PM »

I don't mean to post twice, but I wasn't entirely sure which of my songs I wanted to post, so I figured I might as well and try to post both.  Here's another: https://soundcloud.com/tipsheda/blimps-fly-high . Just let me know what you think.  You guys can skip this if you feel like it.  I don't entirely care, just thought I'd try.
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ZackParrish
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« Reply #37 on: April 24, 2013, 02:39:21 PM »

I'd love to hear some criticism for one of my tracks.  I've always had the problem of not knowing how good my songs are because of how little and sappy comments I've gotten on them.  So here it is: https://soundcloud.com/tipsheda/a-dude-5-am .  It's not perfect, but it's one of my favorites.  It's suppose to be structured the way it is, too; just fyi.

MY GOD MAN. Smiley  Compression is pretty thick on this.  Right now the track doesn't seem to have any real direction... just goes... THAT WAY --->

The snare you use is pretty week, especially in respect to the amount of compression you've used on this track.  Musically as a whole this track just doesn't seem to go anywhere like I mentioned before, I kept expecting a build up, break down, etc... nothing.  The changes were all pretty subtle if they happened, and the times I would've expected more to come in... nothing did happen.  You've also kind of made it 3 different tracks with huge gaps between. The transitions between the parts kind of gave me the vibe that one track was ending and something else was starting.  I think with more attention spent on developing the percussion, evolving it into more than just a KICK KICK KICK for 3 minutes, occasionally adding a weak snare, etc... it could help pull the 3 sections together more.  You might even consider trying to put in some form of motif/melody to break up the constant BUMP BUMP BUMP BUMP BUMP that seems to be driving the entire track down a really straight road that seems unending.  Kind of think of it like... You start in one room, and then proceed to another, but first you have to walk down this hallway and encounter these random people, and eventually you have to do it again to either get back to where you were, or go to another room.  Use the music to describe that journey you just made, give it a sense of direction, sense of purpose, and bring in more variety on the drums, maybe add leads like to represent someone "talking" or "singing".  
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« Reply #38 on: April 24, 2013, 02:41:01 PM »

I don't mean to post twice, but I wasn't entirely sure which of my songs I wanted to post, so I figured I might as well and try to post both.  Here's another: https://soundcloud.com/tipsheda/blimps-fly-high . Just let me know what you think.  You guys can skip this if you feel like it.  I don't entirely care, just thought I'd try.

I'll come back to this one... soundcloud stopped working for me...
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Tipsheda
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« Reply #39 on: April 24, 2013, 02:52:22 PM »

I'd love to hear some criticism for one of my tracks.  I've always had the problem of not knowing how good my songs are because of how little and sappy comments I've gotten on them.  So here it is: https://soundcloud.com/tipsheda/a-dude-5-am .  It's not perfect, but it's one of my favorites.  It's suppose to be structured the way it is, too; just fyi.

MY GOD MAN. Smiley  Compression is pretty thick on this.  Right now the track doesn't seem to have any real direction... just goes... THAT WAY --->

The snare you use is pretty week, especially in respect to the amount of compression you've used on this track.  Musically as a whole this track just doesn't seem to go anywhere like I mentioned before, I kept expecting a build up, break down, etc... nothing.  The changes were all pretty subtle if they happened, and the times I would've expected more to come in... nothing did happen.  You've also kind of made it 3 different tracks with huge gaps between. The transitions between the parts kind of gave me the vibe that one track was ending and something else was starting.  I think with more attention spent on developing the percussion, evolving it into more than just a KICK KICK KICK for 3 minutes, occasionally adding a weak snare, etc... it could help pull the 3 sections together more.  You might even consider trying to put in some form of motif/melody to break up the constant BUMP BUMP BUMP BUMP BUMP that seems to be driving the entire track down a really straight road that seems unending.  Kind of think of it like... You start in one room, and then proceed to another, but first you have to walk down this hallway and encounter these random people, and eventually you have to do it again to either get back to where you were, or go to another room.  Use the music to describe that journey you just made, give it a sense of direction, sense of purpose, and bring in more variety on the drums, maybe add leads like to represent someone "talking" or "singing".  

Thank you so much. I've always realized that I like to combine different melodies to form a song seeming like multiple songs and that my transitions were mediocre at best.  I've just never known it was that BIG of a problem.  Thank you for your criticism; I'm definitely going to take it into account for future songs.
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