next »

[Hangedman]

also, relevant: http://www.p4rgaming.com/most-gamers-quit-new-games-within-first-five-minutes-unless-they-kill-something/

Parody

[ஒழுக்கின்மை (Paul Eres)]

ya, of course it's a parody, i didn't say it wasn't; it's pretty obviously a parody, that's why i said it was relevant

[Acccent]

I think one important thing to allow stealth gameplay would have been to give some kind of way to see guards/people, and the basic layout of the rooms beyond doors without opening them. The Lookout obviously adds this, but takes it to the extreme, and you don't always have her in the team. If you don't, there is basically no thinking or planning involved in opening a door, you just open it a pray for the room to be empty.
And, due to the fact that you can't see what's in a room before opening it, you basically hardly ever have the ability to plan anything. That's why Hotline Miami does a better job at allowing "stealth": you can analyse  what's ahead of you and pick a path or a chain of actions. I haven't had the opportunity to do that in Monaco, hence chaos.

[ஒழுக்கின்மை (Paul Eres)]

yeah i think a lookout is perhaps too essential to any party; in the coop's i've played so far we always have to have a lookout or we usually fail the mission. it does have windows though; with a window you can look inside a room before going in. not every room has windows, but a lot of them do

[Blademasterbobo]

if you barely walk into a room, the guards won't be instantly alerted. my only complaint with that sorta stuff is it should show the blueprint regardless of whether or not you've been in the rooms.

[Dragonmaw]

I have a few complaints, but mostly minor.

1.) No pre-mission planning map
2.) No level editor

Also, I think solo is pretty good too. It lacks the coordination fun of the co-op, but replaying older levels as a different character shows just how much thought went in to making each character viable and interesting to play.

[Tanner]

except for the pickpocket

[M]

A level editor is coming soon.

[Acccent]

Guards can also see through windows, can't they?

[Fallsburg]

Guards can also see through windows, can't they?

Yes.

[Acccent]

So, that or peeking aren't really good options for planning... I mean, design-wise, if you're not allowing the players to take their time to analyse the situation they're about to get into, you're not encouraging any kind of planning. Even if you do theoretically have some time to look into a room before the ?s turn into !s, you'll be more focused on making sure that doesn't happen rather than actually looking for potential strategies.

[Udderdude]

This is why action puzzle games tend to be single screen so that the player can see every element in the puzzle before they even start ..

[Acccent]

Well that's the other extreme :D

[Blademasterbobo]

you nerds are making it out to be way harder to do than it actually is. peek in: if someone is looking your way, they're probably patrolling. leave and come back later: it is very rare that a dude is stationary and looking at the door. move through to other cover. there are like 3-4 characters that have a way to just walk through the room regardless. maybe you two are just bad at videogames? ? ? i've literally never had an issue looking into rooms without a lookout, so i'm afraid that you guys might just be dum.

also protip, you can press Y to see through other players' views, which is really fucking stupid imo

[Udderdude]

I haven't actually tried it yet .. yay for no demo version.

[Ashkin]

As I play it more, I'm starting to appreciate it more- the Pickpocket storyline has some real elements of stealth going on, and I've begun cleaning out levels completely again, which I haven't done since the aquatic museum in the Locksmith's recollection.

[ஒழுக்கின்மை (Paul Eres)]

So, that or peeking aren't really good options for planning... I mean, design-wise, if you're not allowing the players to take their time to analyse the situation they're about to get into, you're not encouraging any kind of planning. Even if you do theoretically have some time to look into a room before the ?s turn into !s, you'll be more focused on making sure that doesn't happen rather than actually looking for potential strategies.

it's still a good option because the player's range of vision is far greater than a guard's. a guard can only see about 3 tiles in front of itself, not an infinite distance. they also have to be facing the window to see you, which is unlikely since they can be be looking in any direction

[Acccent]

@Rinku: fair point.

@Blademasterbobo: (diresgarding the attacks - I don't know if that's normal here, or it's just you, but whatevs) As a matter of fact, I actually am pretty bad at playing videogames in general, but that's besides the point here. I'm not saying the problem is that it's "too hard" to stealth, but that game's design doesn't encourage it.

Basically the Monaco's design tells me two things: 1) stealth is often not as efficient as just running around; 2) the stealth mechanics (peeking into a room, listening to footsteps, looking beyond a corner...) aren't very well implemented.
What this communicates is that Monaco just isn't very good at stealth. I don't mind it much when to enjoy a game you have to "force yourself" into playing in a certain way, and kinda "roleplay" it, but the game actually has to let me know that via its mechanics.



Anyway, another thing which might have been improved is the feedback related to the characters' interdependance. From what I've played, players quickly move away from each other and go into their own direction. That's not bad but there are probably some ways in which the feeling of cooperation could have been improved, like, instances in which players would actively ask each other's help. It does happen sometimes, but not that much. In Ghost Recon Online, they have this very simple thing which is just a thin line in the interface that connects your character to the others in your team, and it's just a tiny visual thing but it actually really reinforces the feeling of being in a team. Even when you're just looking at your character, you know where the others are, which isn't always the case in Monaco. In the level design there are also few moments where you can see that to go through a corridor you'll have to work together, ie. for example "hack the lasers then quick run and unlock the door with the lockpick then take out the guard behind it". Then again that might mot happen because of the lack of clarity and planning. And I may just not have played levels where there is this kind of thing.

[ஒழுக்கின்மை (Paul Eres)]

stealth matters more in latter levels where the enemies can kill you if they find you. it doesn't matter at all in early levels. i think that's a problem, but i think it's unfair to say that stealth is *never* useful because there are enemies later on that will kill you very quickly if they find you, so stealth is necessary for those. this is more a problem of the early enemies not really being threatening enough

also, the problem you describe isn't any different in the metal gear solid games. in most metal gear solid games you can beat the game completely without stealth, just run through the enemies killing them all or tranquilizing them all. watch a metal gear series speedrun sometime to see what i mean. stealth is rarely if ever used. it's hard to make stealth an essential part of a gameplay, even for games which specifically focus on stealth and are called "stealth games", it's a hard gameplay design problem with probably no good solution, since basically the optimal way to play a game is to go as fast as possible, and being stealthy means being slow and patient

the same is true for other stealth games i've played: trilby the art of theft, and the thief series, all of them are best played with as little stealth as possible and just running quickly through the levels killing anything in your way

[Acccent]

I've already played levels in which enemies are pretty dangerous, but yeah I'll play more this week (once I receive a new headset) and will tell you if I change my mind. I think I'll try to do some kind of experiment, with one player acting like an 'overseer' - like the commander in battlefield I think - telling everyone what to do.

WRT to MGS, maybe it fails in making stealth the most efficient way of playing, but it does successfully communicate to the player that they should play that way. The average player in MGS tries to stay hidden, because of the rigid controls (a good thing) and the fantastic elevator tutorial level. The average player in Monaco runs around and destroys every single wall with the Mole. The mechanics just don't say 'hey, be stealthy'. Also I just want to reiterate the fact that it's not necessarily a bad thing that it's not a good stealth game! It can be a good chaos game.

(re. games in which stealth is the best strategy: maybe mark of the ninja?)