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[JuanPablo]

Hello first I don't know if this is the right place of the forum for this if not I'm sorry  , I hope you can help me I really feel stuck, I have several ideas of games that I would like to create, I'm a programmer and do not know anything about art but I want to make my own graphics mainly because as you know (which I think is perfectly fair and reasonable) not many people are interested in working for free just for fun, if yes they don't not have commitment enough (disappear just after doing nothing) once I worked with an artist, all went well but he does not have much time also we need found a project that interest us both and the opinion of both is equally valid (I can not do as I please  ). If I could create my own graphics I not say nice, presentable, not even decent, just having ... "coherence" ie same colors, same scale and that the player can understand what the hell is supposed to represent, but every time I want to draw anything it finishes being just a bunch of shit which frustrates me a lot, perhaps the main advice is just practice, I try for hours to draw something "simple" but I can not improve anything. 
Thanks for reading.
P.D. feel free of being a grammar nazi I want to improve my english 

[Schoq]

All you gotta do is study and practice some art.

Perhaps look at some art forums, maybe start a thread in Feedback, read this over and over

[gimymblert]

I think we need a guide to art for programmer that represent art in a systematic way, even better if it's a program where you input intention and get proposition at the end.

[blinkok]

http://2dgameartforprogrammers.blogspot.com.au/

[rosholger]

well the answer is the same as when some one asks how to learn to program. just make art, lots of it, and you will get better with time.
if you want to make art that looks "okay" now i my suggestions are:

    1. use some one else's palette, check out this thread or maybe arnes palette
   
    2. if pixel art make it low-res, its less room too cock-up in and iteration times for
  trial-and-error is smaller

    3. don't be afraid to show your art, critic is never bad.

[Trystin]

Programmers can do art (sometimes) if they practice enough. Just if it looks unique, even if its shit.. people will think its an artistic preference. go figure.

[Blambo]

Man, visual art is the easiest thing you can possibly learn. The fundamental skills are intuitive, the first few stages of observation and symbolic interpretation skills are probably already well developed, and color theory is one web tutorial and a couple sketches from intuitiveness.

The only thing is that it's a very tactile thing to learn; it requires that you draw a lot and feel out certain concepts.

[JuanPablo]

Hey thank you :D

All you gotta do is study and practice some art.

I think we need a guide to art for programmer that represent art in a systematic way,

well the answer is the same as when some one asks how to learn to program.

I think it is easier for artists learn how to program than a programmer learn art because programming have rigid (and "simple") rules if you dont follow them straight your program wont work, besides it seems like if you learn how to program first the "artistic" part of your brain die or got block by logical-procedural-systemic-algorithmic neurons. 

http://2dgameartforprogrammers.blogspot.com.au/

I already know that blog but that kind of art al least for me looks pretty infant and generic (I really hate them  ) but maybe I should give it a chance.

Programmers can do art (sometimes) if they practice enough.

Man, visual art is the easiest thing you can possibly learn. (...)
The only thing is that it's a very tactile thing to learn; it requires that you draw a lot and feel out certain concepts.

I tried with tutos and reading articles, maybe I just need to try harder or go to a Tibetan monastery of art or someting.

[gimymblert]

I don't agree as an (lapse) artist first and noob programmer, you can definitely program "art". Of course it will be formulaic but it would work. Most artist aren't so creative, those who are stick out easily in a thread or a gallery. Art is the most codified field, and exposure made us internalize most rules, also there is so many rules that not following them all is enough to create something good enough.

Remember art wasn't always separate from logics and math, this trend is a modern one, back in the days of Titien, Durher, Leonardo Da vinci, it was all about math, just look at the vitruve man (or the golden number, or the rules of third, or Fibonacci sequence, or Tschichold's composition) . Romantics start this idea, then guys like pollocks and other perpetuated that idea of the artist has the source of inspiration and the guiding hand, Which was pretty much a reaction to the decrease of importance of the artist in a world increasingly profane, the genius of the artist took the same function as god(s) had before.

So yeah it's entirely possible to put art in math, and math in art, but that would be a tools that make suggestion, leaving the choice to the user.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Composition_%28visual_arts%29

[wccrawford]

No, the Geneva Convention prohibits us from attempting to make art.

Yes, of course we can.  It just takes practice.  You may not remember, but you weren't very good at programming at first, either.  But you stuck with it, and improved over the years.  Art is the same way.  You'll start to see things differently and improve your overall ability the more you practice.

Just keep at it.  Don't give up.

[Schoq]

BTW artist/programmer is a really stupid false dichotomy; getting good at one doesn't make you worse at the other. If anything they probably enhance each other!

[JuanPablo]

Hi.

So yeah it's entirely possible to put art in math, and math in art, but that would be a tools that make suggestion, leaving the choice to the user.

yeah maybe I use the wrong words to describe how I feel I never put in doubt the relation between math and art.

No, the Geneva Convention prohibits us from attempting to make art.

I knew it!!.

(...) getting good at one doesn't make you worse at the other. If anything they probably enhance each other!

That's exactly what I want. 
So maybe the problem is just a lack of talent  anyway what i want is some advice or experience from some one who has faced a similar situation (plus if they show some art they made)

[Blambo]

No, the Geneva Convention prohibits us from attempting to make art.

On the fifth day, the Lord said "There shalt not be programmer-artists, and hiring a team shall be a nightmare."

[Quarry]

[rosholger]

amen

[ஒழுக்கின்மை (Paul Eres)]

i think the thing preventing this from happening (the thing behind programmer art) is the 10,000 hour rule. generally, it takes 10,000 hours of practice in a field before you are competent in that field (e.g. until you are comparable with people who do it for a living). most people don't have 10,000 hours to dedicate to learning *both* programming and art, let alone, programming, art, music, game design, marketing, and all the other fields that an indie developer benefits from

to make that more relatable, 10,000 hours is 1250 days of doing something 8 hours a day. that's 4 years of 8 hour days, no weekends off, no sick days. if you have that time to dedicate to learning, someone who already put in those hours into learning programming can also become equally skilled at art. it's possible, it's just that it takes a lot of time

so generally it's better to specialize. there are of course madmen who dedicate 10,000 hours to programming, another 10,000 to art, and another 10,000 to music, and become better at each of those than most specialists are at their own specialty. we call those people konjak, mr. podunkian, or pixel. but people like that are the rarest of indies. usually indies are good at one thing, and bad or only okay at everything else. and usually that one thing that they are good at is programming, and they team up with someone who is good at art and someone else who is good at music

to make this more concrete, if you take the best, most popular, and most prestigeous indie games, like a top 100 list or something, or perhaps "all the indie games on steam", or "all the indie games that sold more than one million copies", i'd say that more than 95% of them have separate people for programming, art, and music. it just usually works out better that way

but if you aren't aiming to make one of the best games ever, and are just learning, or doing indie game dev for fun, or are just going to make freeware, then by all means make your own art and music, even if it's bad, especially if you enjoy making those. i'm just saying that you can't really expect to *excel* at multiple skills unless you have a ton of time to practice each of those skills separately. but you can get decent, or even average, at multiple skills relatively quickly, you just can't create professional-quality stuff in multiple skills without a huge time investment

one way to do this is to limit the *type* of something that you create. for example, if it's music, just focus on making good music of a simple, single style, like sad ambient piano music. if it's art, focus on making good art of a single style, such as monochrome pixel art. that's one key to saving time: to limit your style. as an analogy, if you play league of legends or dota2, it's much better to pick one hero/champion to focus on, and just get good at that one character, instead of trying to get good at all of them at once. the more you limit yourself, the faster you can get good (to an extent)

with game art, one way to do this is through copying. pick a visual style you admire, a relatively simple one, and copy it, and vary it a little until you like it. your game will probably look a bit too much like the game you copy, for example, the underside and cave story, but if all you are going for is something decent-looking, that's completely fine. it also may be a good idea to do monochrome (something like the original game boy's 4 green colors), because then you don't have to deal with a lot of issues, that kind of limit saves a lot of time in learning to get good, because you don't have to learn about all kinds of things that you'd have to learn about if you were using full colors. you could also copy basic sprite body shapes from games you admire, and just adjust things like hair, eyes, clothes, etc. -- that's a way to get something decent without having to spend 10,000 hours learning art

[JuanPablo]

I don't pretend to be an orchestra-man  learn programming, art, and music (but even for programming for example there is specialization areas like physic systems, artificial inteligence, networks, informatic security, etc. that worth a life to master)just want 'ok' art for my games.
I am aware of the "inspiracyon" resource and it is totally ok for me  .

but if you aren't aiming to make one of the best games ever,

I am not sure if you can decide to make One of the Best Games Ever, or you simply make the games you want and let the people decide if is a great game  , but yes i really want to work with a team and make professional-quality stuff but  people I know are like: "hey you know that bird-throwing game made by two or three guys and made millions I want to try something like that" they just think in working two weeks and make lots of money.

[wccrawford]

i think the thing preventing this from happening (the thing behind programmer art) is the 10,000 hour rule. generally, it takes 10,000 hours of practice in a field before you are competent in that field (e.g. until you are comparable with people who do it for a living).

Actually, the 10,000 hour rule says you'll have to have put in 10,000 hours to become an expert, not merely 'competent'. 

But yes, what you said is essentially true.  There simply isn't enough time in your life to master everything.  If you really have a burning desire for something, drop everything else and do it unless you're great at it.

I've always wanted to be able to draw, but not badly enough to actually practice.  Not really a burning desire.  And yet I still dabble in art, for fun.  I doubt I'll ever do anything professionally, but it's a fine hobby.

[Dr. Cooldude]

I saw this post on GameDev.net this morning and I thought it might help understanding the whole "magic"* of game visuals: http://www.gamedev.net/page/resources/_/creative/visual-arts/the-total-beginner%E2%80%99s-guide-to-better-2d-game-art-r2959

*I'm not that good at English.

[wccrawford]

That's a *great* article for the technical aspects, but even knowing all that stuff doesn't help me make that red ship thing at the beginning.  There's something else missing, and I've never found it in a tutorial yet, even the ones that insist I'll be drawing like that after them.