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TIGSource ForumsPlayerGeneralTIGS Epic Thread of Metaphysics
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agj
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« Reply #120 on: November 10, 2008, 02:57:06 PM »

Well, what I meant either way, was that things like the hypercube make no sense to me. It's like believing that the dimensions above are all like the third, but with more sides. This is what I meant by 'geometrical'. The shift from the second to the third dimension added volume, and it's only logical that the fourth dimension adds time, and that the fifth adds alternate timelines or somesuch. I don't really know about the folds and all that. I wasn't talking about the mathematical point of view, either.
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« Reply #121 on: November 10, 2008, 03:06:11 PM »

The shift from the second to the third dimension added volume, and it's only logical that the fourth dimension adds time, and that the fifth adds alternate timelines or somesuch.

Volume, area, distance.. these are all the same thing.  Time, alternate timelines, voodoo nonsense, these are different.
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Chris Whitman
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« Reply #122 on: November 10, 2008, 03:59:02 PM »

i so smrt

Uh, I'm guessing that's sarcasm? I really am clever! Grin

No, seriously. You can show that a plane through the origin in three dimensional space (using real numbers with normal vector addition) forms what is called a 'normal subgroup'. You can then use this normal subgroup, if you call it N, to construct the factor group R3/N, where every element in this group is effectively a plane shifted by some arbitrary vector.

Using some math wizardry (called the fundamental homomorphism theorem), you can show that this factor group is isomorphic to (meaning it has the same structure as) a line of real numbers.

So in fact you really can split up a three dimensional space into a line of planes, and you can split a four dimensional space into a 'line of cubes' and so on. In fact, there is a mathematical model for what you are describing intuitively.

As for imagining three dimensions up or down or negative dimensions or whatever, I think it's easy to get carried away with these things. I can't picture a four dimensional space. Maybe some people grasp it in some kind of intuitive sense, but it is really not helpful or meaningful, and good luck with that when you start talking about infinite dimensional spaces, which as I should point out regular quantum physics deals with all the time: quantum states are vectors in a Hilbert space with observables as Hermitian operators on those states.

What really matters in these cases is that dimension, in whatever context you are using it, has a rigorous mathematical definition which allows you to use it in reference to values of various kinds and get an answer that gives you some new information about the world.

Whether we can picture additional spatial dimensions just isn't very important or even very interesting, when you boil it down. The important thing is that we can chug calculations and get an answer that is meaningful.
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« Reply #123 on: November 10, 2008, 04:36:55 PM »

Well, what I meant either way, was that things like the hypercube make no sense to me. It's like believing that the dimensions above are all like the third, but with more sides. This is what I meant by 'geometrical'. The shift from the second to the third dimension added volume, and it's only logical that the fourth dimension adds time, and that the fifth adds alternate timelines or somesuch. I don't really know about the folds and all that. I wasn't talking about the mathematical point of view, either.

Dimension, when we talk about it this way, only ever makes sense from a mathematical view, because spatial dimension refers to measurement.

There's no 'second' or 'third' dimension in the universe we inhabit. A string is not one dimensional and a piece of paper is not two dimensional. These are just analytical tools we use to understand the world around us by modelling it: by using language to distinguish the properties of things.

I don't know how to get into dimension in this sense except once again through ontology, but to put it as simply as possible (without getting too caught up in formal language) it is an indicator or a set of directions. Formally we would say that as an indicator it has readiness-to-hand as a towards-which: meaning that it exists to be used in reference to achieving some purpose. So that when I point to something and say 'it is over there' I am indicating dimension in the sense that we would deal with it in our absorbed coping, but this is not a dimensionality which implies a number or countability or 'properties' of things which are present at hand in the world.

It is only through 'unreadiness-to-hand' or unusability that direction becomes conspicuous. We want to go to the store, but we don't know where the store is; we want to go get the ball, but it might have landed in the tree and be too far off the ground to reach. It is in these cases where distance and measurement are removed from this 'absorbed coping' and become present at hand in the sense of being atomistic concepts with properties. They become conspicuous.

And you really have to understand dimension as it's used in math in this way. We conceptualize dimension to use it to solve some problem or set of problems. We build a model of a thing because our absorbed coping is interrupted through obtrusiveness of not having the model: we go to build the wall of a house and we don't know how tall it should be; we want to fire a rocket into space but we don't know how much fuel we should have.



So I lied about formal language, but what I'm trying to say is that in our day-to-day dealings of the world we wander around and point to shit and move through the world to get things and do things for some purpose, and we really don't think much about it. The only time we think about it is when get to something we can't do. When this happens, we build models of the things going on in the world, we assign them 'properties' like width and height and time which are really only vague descriptions, and then we use these models to get answers. That is basically what applied math is.

So to say that dimensions as countable things should have some existence in the universe as things is like saying that hammers or toasters are fundamental elements of the universe. Math is something we have developed because of our method of 'noticing things,' basically. It describes the world around us and does not constitute it.
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« Reply #124 on: November 10, 2008, 04:38:16 PM »

I think I did that thing again where I spend a long time writing a lot of stuff for no particular reason.

This will teach me to go for sushi with friends and order those Japanese beers in the enormous bottles.
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« Reply #125 on: November 11, 2008, 06:20:15 AM »

ILC, I didn't really notice much of the left-right chat at all on my first read: I pretty happily was willing to swallow it as a narrative aid.  It wasn't necessary to his description.  As to your other problem with his rough treatment of problems of human perception, erm, yeah, I don't know if such discussion would have contributed much to the article's clarity and subject-matter.

it is an indicator or a set of directions.
It can be that, or at can, equivalently, be viewed as an indicator as to how volume transforms when side-lengths are uniformly scaled.  I don't mean to say that one is more fundamental than the other, but they are both notionally different and, in my experience, of similar importance.

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Formally we would say that as an indicator it has readiness-to-hand as a towards-which: meaning that it exists to be used in reference to achieving some purpose.
This could be said about pretty much any mathematical entity, couldn't it?  (maybe that's what you indicate in what you write afterwards).  On the other hand, the notion of dimension (or various particular mathematical characterisations) is a relatively free-standing one, one that does not exist to achieve a specific purpose, or was not used to.  It doesn't do anything; in some instances where it arises it might solve problems, but sometimes I just calculate the dimension of things with no particular purpose in mind.

(I'm not familiar with the term 'towards-which'... do you know what it is auf Deutsch?)

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So that when I point to something and say 'it is over there' I am indicating dimension in the sense that we would deal with it in our absorbed coping, but this is not a dimensionality which implies a number or countability or 'properties' of things which are present at hand in the world.
It does imply many things about space.  It's probably a matter of convention whether one regards space as being present at hand though...
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Chris Whitman
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« Reply #126 on: November 11, 2008, 10:10:01 AM »

If you're wondering why all the Heidegger, I've been doing a pretty concentrated study of Being and Time for the past while, so it's been on my mind. Taking that into account, welcome back to the world of survival ontology:

It can be that, or at can, equivalently, be viewed as an indicator as to how volume transforms when side-lengths are uniformly scaled.  I don't mean to say that one is more fundamental than the other, but they are both notionally different and, in my experience, of similar importance.

Yeah, I'm sort of generalizing its mathematical significance to get the job done, but it isn't particularly pertinent to the argument in general (see below).

This could be said about pretty much any mathematical entity, couldn't it?  (maybe that's what you indicate in what you write afterwards).  On the other hand, the notion of dimension (or various particular mathematical characterisations) is a relatively free-standing one, one that does not exist to achieve a specific purpose, or was not used to.  It doesn't do anything; in some instances where it arises it might solve problems, but sometimes I just calculate the dimension of things with no particular purpose in mind.

Yes, it could, and actually I think mathematical tools can still have readiness to hand as tools which are used skillfully by someone to some end. In this particular case, however, I am talking about applied math used to solve a particular physical problem like the one from which string theory emerges and from which we have ten dimensions, etc., and I am talking about it in the context of how it relates ontically to the universe, as that is sort of the focus of the discussion and why I brought ontology back: the question "Does the space we inhabit have ten dimensions and what, exactly, does it mean to say that?"

As a point of note (this isn't related to the original argument), though, I think mathematical tools, when they are employed skillfully, can have a use or a purpose, in that they can be part of the referential totality of equipment. They have a 'towards-which,' (das Wozu, in terms of serviceability) which could be to solve a particular problem, a 'for-which' (das Wofür, in terms of usability), which could be for the sake of research or to better understand a concept and a 'for the sake of which' (das Worumwillen, in terms of ultimate goal) which goes back to how the operations relate to your stand on your existence: doing math is what a mathematician does. You are not a mathematician if you sit at home and eat ice cream all day instead of doing math. You have to, you know, get out there and do some math.

And these things are relatively transparent as long as they are inconspicuous, that is as long as they are not unready-to-hand for some reason. It's when you try to solve a new problem or try to do work in an unknown field that they become conspicuous.

When the idea of 'purpose' becomes difficult or ambiguous is normally when we use purpose in the cultural sense in our stance primarily as consumers. When people say pure math has no purpose, they mean it doesn't necessarily produce things which generate money or products, which is generally how most people in our society approach what it means to be a person living today in the capitalist first world. If you do math at home by yourself and no one pays you, you are wasting your time in idleness; if you are employed to do math but it doesn't really appear to contribute to the GNP, that is a little better; but if you are using mathematical tools as an engineer to create a new product to sell in the market, that is really the best because it relates directly to the economy and is 'productive'. However, I don't agree with that and it certainly isn't a useful definition of 'purpose' for the purposes of doing ontology, as it relies very heavily on the interpretation of meaning for one subset of our local population.

(I'm not familiar with the term 'towards-which'... do you know what it is auf Deutsch?)

Das Wozu, apparently.

It does imply many things about space.  It's probably a matter of convention whether one regards space as being present at hand though...

Whether space itself is present at hand (at least in the Cartesian sense of being an object with properties) has been a huge debate, but it really amounts to whether it is disclosed as having properties, and I think GR actually settles that pretty well.

One of the central ideas of Heidegger's ontology which is really glossed over in his writings, unfortunately, is the idea of unreadiness to hand as being the means by which entities are disclosed as present at hand. You can look at it as being an advancement of Wittgenstein, really, in as much as we have this enormous, holistic mess (the referential totality) which we simply take up and use in our concernful dealings as equipment (Zeug), and it is from that which objects become distinguished as atomistic things with properties only when it is necessary to distinguish them as such.

This is why I don't identify the middle third of the standing lamp next to me or an arbitrary two foot square section of floor as being intelligible objects with properties. There is no inherent 'objectness' to the entire lamp that is not possessed by the middle third of the lamp, it is distinguished only by my need to distinguish it and recognize that some subset of the means by which it is employed as equipment can be distinguished from its relations with other things: i.e., it stands on the floor and plugs into the wall and draws power, which are aspects it can have only in relation to other things, but if I had to develop a model of the lamp I could represent its state of being on or off as being a property belonging solely to the lamp itself and not to the lamp in reference to other things.

In this sense, of course, it is a matter to convention whether anything is present at hand, and that is really the point Heidegger makes. Space is treated in physics as present at hand because, thanks to GR, we know it has properties like curvature which can be separated from the things around it.
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« Reply #127 on: November 11, 2008, 10:31:13 AM »

Space is treated in physics as present at hand because, thanks to GR, we know it has properties like curvature which can be separated from the things around it.
things around space, eh?  Wink

I find the 10-dimensional video to be closer to the spirit of Swedenborg's (quite inventive) Universe than anything to do with modern physics.
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Chris Whitman
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« Reply #128 on: November 11, 2008, 10:38:22 AM »

things around space, eh?  Wink

Oh, you know what I mean. Distinguishing space as an entity apart from the things inhabiting it.

Keep in mind this is all pre-breakfast for me.
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« Reply #129 on: November 11, 2008, 10:40:40 AM »

Keep in mind this is all pre-breakfast for me.
Don't forget to brush
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