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TIGSource ForumsCommunityDevLogsTricone Lab: a bio-logical puzzle game [Out 27-Jul-2017 on Steam]
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Author Topic: Tricone Lab: a bio-logical puzzle game [Out 27-Jul-2017 on Steam]  (Read 29436 times)
josh_s
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« Reply #20 on: July 28, 2013, 04:04:15 AM »

Hi Rusk, thanks a lot for playing and giving feedback, I hope you enjoyed the game.

I had a bug similar to oyog, but it didn't crash the game. It was on map M1, after completing a level and having two more to go. There didn't seem to be enough room for the last two levels to inflate, so they just bumped against the border until I reset. It only happened once in 3 playthroughs.
Ah yes, it's a different bug. Probably quite rare. You're exactly right, it is a case that there wasn't enough room to inflate. The code which creates the inflating bubble waits around until there is enough space before triggering inflation (to avoid any topological inconsistencies). It can wait indefinitely if these conditions don't arise. I think I might have crammed too many levels ( 8 ) into M1 and M2. I might shift levels around so there are only at most 6 levels per map in a later version to avoid this issue. Another fix might be to have the uninflated level node repel surrounding vertices until there's enough space, but that might look a bit wrong.

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josh_s
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« Reply #21 on: July 28, 2013, 04:24:48 AM »

Hi folks,

Version 0.002-alpha is available to download. Highlights: MacOSX/Linux support, improved playability (thanks oyog!), a slightly more polished look, a new mechanic (transporter nodes) and a new map M5 for this mechanic.

Please see http://www.triconelab.com/index.php/download/ for download instructions.

I've only minimally playtested this new map M5, so I'd be especially interested in any feedback on the difficulty of this map.

Here is the full changelog.

  • Resolved platform issues for Mac OSX
  • Resolved platform issues for Linux
  • Added test for gfx / shader compliance, with a swing dialog displayed in case of failure
  • Added file log as part of run record.
  • Better logging of diagnostics, e.g. gfx card vendor etc.
  • Added scripted messages explaining about hotkeys / right-click / restart / undo
  • breakers and transporters accept keystrokes during a move and apply them once stable (idea from oyog)
  • "Level complete" done as large overlay text. Any mouse click or key click clears this and triggers the fade. During this period the game does not pause (idea from KomradeJack)
  • A system of player preferences
  • Added transporter, transporter catalyst and resources
  • A level map for transporters
  • mover lines behave better when the cursor moves outside the current region (idea from oyog)
  • Level name to be displayed as overlay to main display area
  • Player can set window size
  • Moved "drag from here" nearer to source
  • Updated font for text guides.
  • Play / credits / quit actions on start page.
  • improved the presentation of buttons
  • Added "level complete" guide text to first 3 completed levels, until level 4 is complete
  • small explosions on level map as link and level nodes inflate
  • simplified hot keys. added hotkey for restart (idea from oyog)
  • updated font for text at top of right hand GUI panel which indicates selected node.
  • In BreakerMoves[M1] the starting positions are changed slightly.
  • Level editor: added a "playtest" button for puzzles
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josh_s
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« Reply #22 on: July 28, 2013, 04:37:47 AM »

Special notice -- if upgrading from v0.001 to v0.002

Hi,

Installing the update

If you already played v0.001 and you want to try v0.002, you should be able to do this simply by clicking on the webstart link:
http://www.triconelab.com/download/webstart/tricone-lab.jnlp

This should trigger an update. If it doesn't work contact me via PM and I'll help you.

Future updates should work automagically when you launch the game from the desktop.

Keeping your progress

Installing v0.002 will reset your progress to the beginning of the game. If you would rather not replay through already-completed levels again, contact me via PM and I'll send you some files which will move your progress forward to where it was before you updated. Again I'm hoping to automate this better in future versions.
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josh_s
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« Reply #23 on: July 28, 2013, 05:56:01 AM »

OK, so as well as Windows users, Mac OSX and Linux users can now also try the game.

I've now put instructions specific to each operating system on the download page.
http://www.triconelab.com/index.php/download/

Please get back to me via PM if you get stuck with your installation.
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oyog
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« Reply #24 on: July 28, 2013, 12:40:52 PM »

After installing the new version I started from the beginning. After finishing M1 and starting M2 I got impatient to see the new levels and followed your instruction and unlocked all the maps. I played the first two levels of M5 and after finishing the second the map looked like this:

Pretty neat, actually!

I tried clicking on one of the other levels and got a crash. I'll PM you the logs.
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josh_s
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« Reply #25 on: July 28, 2013, 01:15:40 PM »

Hi, thanks for the feedback. This is a known issue, again it only occurs quite rarely so is hard to fix. There's some condition in the topology logic which means that the game layer gets confused about which areas are in/out of each region. The inflation forces end up getting reversed so the regions appear to collapse in on themselves. I should make a catalogue of these problems on the website. I'll look at your log and investigate a fix in the next release.

To work around this, you should be able to just reset the level and continue playing. Let me know if you run into any more problems.

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josh_s
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« Reply #26 on: July 29, 2013, 03:00:50 AM »

Pretty neat, actually!

Turns out the bug which oyog found is not that rare at all. I was able to reproduce it this morning. Looks like a bug in the bubble-inflating code, which was written as I remember on an extended hardcore coding session which carried on until three in the morning. I think the bug is brought out on the M5 map because the third level node is packed in quite tightly.

Anyway being able to reproduce it should help a lot in being able to fix it. So I'll look at that with high priority and once I figure it out I'll do a minor release containing the fix.

Thanks again oyog.
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josh_s
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« Reply #27 on: July 31, 2013, 01:56:47 PM »

Version 0.002.1-alpha available

This fixes both the bug found by Rusk (level nodes not inflating on map) and the bug found by oyog (inconsistent topology after level inflation on map).

If you have 0.002-alpha already, an auto update should occur the next time you launch the game, via the magic of Java Web Start! If you are starting from 0.001-alpha then you can get it by clicking the web start link below.
http://www.triconelab.com/download/webstart/tricone-lab.jnlp

Full changelog:
  • On map, an inflating level node must clear three full edges on each adjacent line before inflation is triggered (previously there was no minimum, which led to inconsistent topologies)
  • On map, level nodes which are waiting to inflate exert a large repulsion force on local nodes, lines and the map border. This creates enough space for them to inflate in.
  • Input events are stored in the run record directory by default. This is a debugging feature intended to allow repeatability of any further topology bugs.
  • The storing of input events in the run record (on by default) can be enabled/disabled in the Debug tab of the game settings dialog.
  • Better layout of the game settings dialog.
« Last Edit: July 31, 2013, 02:24:42 PM by doctor_honeydew » Logged

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cd-w
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« Reply #28 on: August 02, 2013, 11:22:00 PM »

Argh - I'm stuck on the "Cauldron" stage in M5 - is it actually possible?
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josh_s
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« Reply #29 on: August 03, 2013, 01:13:15 AM »

Heh heh, yes! It is a tough one though. Shall I pm you a hint? If so, how strong a hint would you like?
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Rusk
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« Reply #30 on: August 03, 2013, 04:21:03 AM »

I got a crash when finishing the level Enough Breakers (I think it was called). The error occured just when I synthesized the tricone needed for the objective. The popup window just said "Null" and the location of a runrecord file, which I'll pm you.

edit: I finished it. I enjoyed it, it's a fun game. The difficulty curve was pretty flat with a few exceptions. I was stuck for a while on "Cauldron" as well. Grin

Here are some notes I wrote down.

I know it's alpha and you are still working on the mechanics, but I would definitely like to see some more color, sounds and some sort of setting (either educational or at least some vague "dr mario" kind of character in the background). Otherwise I feel it might as well be as abstract as minesweeper, using default windows widgets.

When you move to attach a breaker or mover to a wall, when the wall highlights you can see a dot somewhere along the wall. You can't attach to the wall close to the dot, which has led to misclicks sometimes. I suppose this dot is some internal thing that maybe could be hidden from the player?

Sometimes you need to make a mover to move a mobility unit. But there's a difference between a mover that can move one mobility point, two spaces away; and one that can move two mobility points, one space away, right? They take the same ingredients to make but the result depends on the order they are added? Having to rely on undo to get it right isn't the intent I hope.

For the sake of comfort, I would like to see less alert windows and more streamlining of the mouse commands. I don't use the keyboard commands because I don't feel there's enough to do to require both hands.
  • How about left click for selection, right click for action (synthesize/break/release)?
  • Dragging for connecting is cool, at the end I would just like to be able to click a couple of units and get going.
  • How about being able to move a breaker/mover through several walls at once, by targetting the destination or at least dragging a path through several walls?

Finally, if you have an installer, you should have an uninstaller as well. Tongue
« Last Edit: August 03, 2013, 06:02:11 AM by Rusk » Logged
cd-w
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« Reply #31 on: August 03, 2013, 07:49:23 AM »

Heh heh, yes! It is a tough one though. Shall I pm you a hint? If so, how strong a hint would you like?

Not yet - I need to think about it some more Smiley

Chris
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oyog
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« Reply #32 on: August 03, 2013, 03:38:13 PM »

Sometimes you need to make a mover to move a mobility unit. But there's a difference between a mover that can move one mobility point, two spaces away; and one that can move two mobility points, one space away, right? They take the same ingredients to make but the result depends on the order they are added? Having to rely on undo to get it right isn't the intent I hope.

I also had some trouble with this initially. Reading the recipes in the Transporter's description helped a lot but maybe you could let the player know they're available when they first encounter a Transporter.

I got up to MTrans almost a week ago and then work started absorbing all my time. I finally had the chance to finish it. Ctrans is making my brain hurt.  Waaagh!
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josh_s
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« Reply #33 on: August 05, 2013, 08:12:48 AM »

Hi Rusk,

Thanks so much for playing all the way through and leaving detailed feedback. Really helpful.

I got a crash when finishing the level Enough Breakers (I think it was called). The error occured just when I synthesized the tricone needed for the objective. The popup window just said "Null" and the location of a runrecord file, which I'll pm you.
Thanks, I got your PM, I will take a look.

edit: I finished it. I enjoyed it, it's a fun game. The difficulty curve was pretty flat with a few exceptions. I was stuck for a while on "Cauldron" as well. Grin
Glad you enjoyed it. There will be more mechanics and a lot more levels to come...

I know it's alpha and you are still working on the mechanics, but I would definitely like to see some more color, sounds and some sort of setting (either educational or at least some vague "dr mario" kind of character in the background). Otherwise I feel it might as well be as abstract as minesweeper, using default windows widgets.
I will definitely be adding sounds in the near future, and a bit more UI polish.

I have thought a little about characters etc. However, the focus of the project is to produce a good gameplay experience, which I think derives more from the puzzle design than the setting / backstory / nice graphical effects. That's just my personal opinion of course and I realise there are a lot of different player types out there. Anyway, because of this focus I'm not going to spend a lot of time on these items at this stage; rather I'll be looking to develop the gameplay further. I do take the point that it may mean the game does not at this stage instantly appeal to many game players, but the project is not at the moment on a standard commercial pathway, it is really just about creating an interesting form of gameplay.

When you move to attach a breaker or mover to a wall, when the wall highlights you can see a dot somewhere along the wall. You can't attach to the wall close to the dot, which has led to misclicks sometimes. I suppose this dot is some internal thing that maybe could be hidden from the player?
Well spotted. This is indeed an internal engine thing. You will see the dot when attaching to a cell which just consists of a floating bubble. The line which forms the bubble must have a node on it somewhere, this is one of the assumptions of the topology layer. The dot you can see is that node. I should be able to both hide the node and also allow you to attach your mover line to where the node is.

Sometimes you need to make a mover to move a mobility unit. But there's a difference between a mover that can move one mobility point, two spaces away; and one that can move two mobility points, one space away, right? They take the same ingredients to make but the result depends on the order they are added? Having to rely on undo to get it right isn't the intent I hope.
Heh, okay we are veering slightly into spoiler territory here!

I can confirm that the type and nature of the compound node which is produced by a transporter catalyst is totally predictable based on the order of the player's sequence of actions. This mechanic is of course at the centre of one of the levels that you have completed.

I realise that this mechanic breaks a minor game design rule of mine, which is that the state of the game must be fully visible at all times. In this case, you can't tell (after the fact) what order the resources were linked to the transporter catalyst. Do you think this is a major problem? What about if it was explicitly spelled out in the node information dialog?

For the sake of comfort, I would like to see less alert windows and more streamlining of the mouse commands. I don't use the keyboard commands because I don't feel there's enough to do to require both hands.
  • How about left click for selection, right click for action (synthesize/break/release)?
  • Dragging for connecting is cool, at the end I would just like to be able to click a couple of units and get going.
  • How about being able to move a breaker/mover through several walls at once, by targetting the destination or at least dragging a path through several walls?
I'll be adding double-click for synthesize/break/release pretty soon. This will mean you can play the whole game with just left clicks inside the main playing area, unless you need to undo / restart.

I've thought about moving through several walls at once, assuming that the moving node has the mobility level. Unfortunately it would be quite hard technically to bring this in. Did you find it really annoying to have to do the moves hop-by-hop?

Finally, if you have an installer, you should have an uninstaller as well. Tongue
Good point. It's a standard JavaWS application, so JavaWS provides the uninstall method. I'll add some tips to the web site to cover this.
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josh_s
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« Reply #34 on: August 05, 2013, 08:21:52 AM »


Sometimes you need to make a mover to move a mobility unit. But there's a difference between a mover that can move one mobility point, two spaces away; and one that can move two mobility points, one space away, right? They take the same ingredients to make but the result depends on the order they are added? Having to rely on undo to get it right isn't the intent I hope.

I also had some trouble with this initially. Reading the recipes in the Transporter's description helped a lot but maybe you could let the player know they're available when they first encounter a Transporter.

OK so it is intended that the player has to understand this before solving MTrans. However, it is also intended that the description dialogs should be usable as a full and accurate "reference manual" of all the mechanics that the player has encountered so far (which I realise it doesn't at the moment). That's because the puzzle is supposed to be solving the current level rather than memorizing all the details of the mechanics. So, I am going to do a general overhaul of the description dialogs, after which, this aspect will be spelled out in the description of the transporter catalyst. Do you think that's fair?

I got up to MTrans almost a week ago and then work started absorbing all my time. I finally had the chance to finish it. Ctrans is making my brain hurt.  Waaagh!
I hope it's a good form of brain hurting that you're experiencing? As I mentioned earlier, map M5 was not heavily playtested before I posted the update, unlike maps M1-M4. So do you think it might be a bit too much of a leap at this stage in the game?

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Rusk
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« Reply #35 on: August 06, 2013, 05:32:33 AM »

Hey, it sounds like you have most of what I asked for planned. Regarding the multijumps, I didn't find it a huge annoyance, but the entire move is one "logic step" in the puzzle so I thought it would fit better as one input.

Regarding the order of the resources. From making earlier compound nodes, the player may already have learned that the order doesn't matter. But perhaps figuring it out is part of the puzzle. I didn't read the descriptions, and I probably won't the next time either unless I get really stuck. Wink
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cd-w
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« Reply #36 on: August 06, 2013, 11:50:32 PM »

I hope it's a good form of brain hurting that you're experiencing? As I mentioned earlier, map M5 was not heavily playtested before I posted the update, unlike maps M1-M4. So do you think it might be a bit too much of a leap at this stage in the game?

I finally completed the Cauldron level - I haven't had the time to attempt CTrans yet but it looks rather complex!    The difficulty for M5 is certainly way higher than M1 through M4 - I was able to complete the earlier maps in a single sitting.    Some minor comments:
1) The transporter catalyst and transporter units look very similar, which is a bit confusing.
2) The ordering of links when building a transporter is a bit non-intuitive.   Would it make sense to synthesize the transporter first, then attach it to a unit to transport?
3) I'm still trying to create the links in the wrong direction Smiley

Chris


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josh_s
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« Reply #37 on: August 07, 2013, 04:41:28 AM »

I finally completed the Cauldron level - I haven't had the time to attempt CTrans yet but it looks rather complex!    The difficulty for M5 is certainly way higher than M1 through M4 - I was able to complete the earlier maps in a single sitting.    Some minor comments:
1) The transporter catalyst and transporter units look very similar, which is a bit confusing.
2) The ordering of links when building a transporter is a bit non-intuitive.   Would it make sense to synthesize the transporter first, then attach it to a unit to transport?
3) I'm still trying to create the links in the wrong direction Smiley

Hey Chris,

Agree with you on the similarity between the appearance of the transporter catalyst and the transporter template resource. I'm going to change one of them so they are clearly distinguishable.

Thanks for the feedback on the difficulty. I think we're all in agreement that M5 is too hard as it currently stands. It's good news really because I can quite easily come up with another 4 or 5 easier puzzles based on the transporter mechanic. I'll slot these in before the 3 uber-hard transporter levels (MTrans, CTrans and Cauldron). Then there should be a smooth difficulty curve generally for transporter, plus I will have generated two whole maps from that mechanic which is a sign that it is a good mechanic, according to this puzzle design article (which has influenced me a lot).

http://devmag.org.za/2011/06/04/how-are-puzzle-games-designed-conclusion/

As part of this smooth build-up I will make sure the player has a bit of exposure to the ordering mechanic for transporting mobility resources. This, taken together with an improved description for the transporter catalyst should I think be enough to overcome its non-intuitiveness.

Having the mobility resource transporter created in two steps was also suggested by my girlfriend. The trouble with this is that it is a little out of kilter with how catalysts work generally, and it would mean all transporter synthesis would have to be done in two steps, which is quite a heavy "click burden" given that you are often transporting something other than a mobility resource.

I have not ruled out dragging from resource to catalyst -- just need to think a bit more about it.

I'd also be interested to hear what you think is the relative difficulty between MTrans,  Cauldron and CTrans (when you've finished it).
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Rusk
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« Reply #38 on: August 07, 2013, 06:00:21 AM »

Having the mobility resource transporter created in two steps was also suggested by my girlfriend. The trouble with this is that it is a little out of kilter with how catalysts work generally, and it would mean all transporter synthesis would have to be done in two steps, which is quite a heavy "click burden" given that you are often transporting something other than a mobility resource.

How about a preview of the result somewhere and an option to flip between possible results before you synthesize? Or maybe have the arms looking slightly different so that it is apparent what goes where.
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josh_s
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« Reply #39 on: August 07, 2013, 06:14:58 AM »

Having the mobility resource transporter created in two steps was also suggested by my girlfriend. The trouble with this is that it is a little out of kilter with how catalysts work generally, and it would mean all transporter synthesis would have to be done in two steps, which is quite a heavy "click burden" given that you are often transporting something other than a mobility resource.

How about a preview of the result somewhere and an option to flip between possible results before you synthesize? Or maybe have the arms looking slightly different so that it is apparent what goes where.

Nice ideas!

More food for thought...


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