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[Fetus Commander]

lol

how prevalent rape is?  vs war?  vs epilepsy?  are you serious?

There's no need to be dismissive. If you think my information is wrong, post some data indicating that it is. Easily available statistics put the prevalence of active epilepsy at 1% of the population on the high end. "War" isn't as easy to measure because it depends on how you define it, but feel free to look for a statistic that indicates that a significant portion of your audience will have served in combat.

sorry, but even if the prevalence of rape is higher, i still don't buy that argument.  i don't know if that information is accurate.  i'm sure there's a hundred different figures for something like that. 

however, the idea that you should remove something from a game because "X%" of potential buyers have a problem with it is something i just fundamentally don't like.  it especially seems dumb for indie games, where you've already got the "niche of a niche" thing going on.  it strikes me as ridiculous that an indie developer would be expected to cater to every possible person who might play their game, just for the purpose of selling marginally better.  isn't that kind of bean counting the reason most of you shy away from AAA companies?  why talk about games as an "expressive medium" in one breath, and then basically say "well, I'd like to have this scene in my game, that you know, reflects what it's about, but it'll cut into my bottom line"?

[Geti]

Why do you think having rape in your game is a good thing though, and why would you want to cut into your bottom line?

You can talk all you like about it being an artform and integrity and all that wanky bullshit, if you're trying to make a living from it you've got to be conscious of whether you'll piss people off or not.

I don't know if the developers of HM think of it as an artistic statement about violence or whatever, but I do think
A) Most of their players don't give a shit about if your game is making a statement, they just want the game to be enjoyable.
B) The developers at their core also just want the game to be enjoyable. [1]
C) Their audience is big enough[2] for them to pay a lot of attention to ensuring an enjoyable experience for the majority.
D) Rape is tangential to the statement about violence and tangential or opposing to enjoyment in the player

[1]: cactus has posted patches and support on TPB so that pirates can enjoy the game more, pretty sure that shows that enjoyment is key.
[2]: >130,000 sales in 7 weeks or some such figure, probably millions by now including piracy and friends of purchasers


Either way as I said earlier I dont think that including rape in an action game with constant headsplosions is particularly tasteful. I also said it is of course their "right" or whatever to include it if they want to but I think it'd be a stupid business move as well as fairly insensitive socially.

[ஒழுக்கின்மை (Paul Eres)]

however, the idea that you should remove something from a game because "X%" of potential buyers have a problem with it is something i just fundamentally don't like.  it especially seems dumb for indie games, where you've already got the "niche of a niche" thing going on.  it strikes me as ridiculous that an indie developer would be expected to cater to every possible person who might play their game, just for the purpose of selling marginally better.  isn't that kind of bean counting the reason most of you shy away from AAA companies?  why talk about games as an "expressive medium" in one breath, and then basically say "well, I'd like to have this scene in my game, that you know, reflects what it's about, but it'll cut into my bottom line"?

these are all arguments that have been stated and replied to before in this thread. for example, regarding niche of a niche, there was already a discussion of just how popular hotline miami 1 actually was -- it sold at least 500k sales on the PC, and another 1m or so if you count the bundle it was in for the humble bundle. and now it's on the ps3. there are boxed copies of it in stores. a game with 1.5m+ sales isn't a niche of a niche anymore. it reaches into the domain of mass media

[mono]

so we're full circle?

this discussion should have ended at "the game is one long gruesome massacre" which is just as justified as the portrayal of rape.

[Schoq]

Problem with long threads (and controversial subjects overall) is people throwing themselves into the discussion without actually reading it. More interested in hearing their own voice than getting an understanding.

At worst not even reading replies before retreating to safe echo chamber of choice.

[s0]

just gonna drop this here because it's a good article on the subject of rape and why it's not just an individual but a cultural problem

http://rhrealitycheck.org/article/2013/06/24/who-is-to-blame-for-rape-hazing-and-bullying-its-simple-rapists-and-bullies-not-victims/

[ஒழுக்கின்மை (Paul Eres)]

this discussion should have ended at "the game is one long gruesome massacre" which is just as justified as the portrayal of rape.

this point was replied to too! my point regarding this is: the game clearly advertises itself as a violent game. it doesn't advertise itself as a rape game. it's sneaking in something not normally found in other ultra-violent games. and a lot of people don't mind ultra-violence and gore but do mind rape, just as some people don't mind rape but do mind ultra-violence and gore. just because you want one doesn't necessarily mean you want the other

basically what you are saying here is something similar to 'this game is already rated M for reason X, so who cares if it also would be rated M for reason Y, even if reason Y is snuck into the game without a warning'. to use an analogy, it's like saying 'this candy bar has so many terrible ingredients that who cares if they didn't label one of those ingredients and it killed some people who were allergic to that ingredient? they should have known it wasn't a healthy candy bar'

[mono]

this discussion should have ended at "the game is one long gruesome massacre" which is just as justified as the portrayal of rape.

this point was replied to too! my point regarding this is: the game clearly advertises itself as a violent game. it doesn't advertise itself as a rape game. it's sneaking in something not normally found in other ultra-violent games.

i guess i don't separate the two as distinctly as you do.

[ஒழுக்கின்மை (Paul Eres)]

to me i think the difference is in the emotions involved; violence has to do with rage and anger, rape can include rage and anger but also includes lust / sexual desire. in terms of player emotions, people often play violent games to release stress, by giving them an outlet for repressed emotions. like, 'i am angry at that guy in real life but i can't kill him so i'll play a violent game and take out my anger virtually instead'

including rape in there adds a whole new element to a game. it makes it into a game about 'i desire that woman in real life but i can't have her so i'll play a rape game and virtually relieve my sexual frustration instead'. it's a fundamentally different reason for playing a game, because instead of just relieving anger frustrations you're also relieving sexual frustrations

and there are some people (in particular, women, but also many men) who want to play an ultra-violent game to express their anger, their hidden desire to kill, but don't care to express their hidden desire to rape, because they may have no such hidden desire, or it may be more uncomfortable to them. so i think it's perfectly understandable for someone to desire a game that has ultra-violence but no rape (or at least the option of turning the rape part off in the options screen)

[mono]

to me i think the difference is in the emotions involved; violence has to do with rage and anger, rape can include rage and anger but also includes lust / sexual desire. in terms of player emotions, people often play violent games to release stress, by giving them an outlet for repressed emotions. like, 'i am angry at that guy in real life but i can't kill him so i'll play a violent game and take out my anger virtually instead'

if it were a mechanic then it would be fucking stupid, but it's not.

[Schoq]

as if that makes a difference?

[Geti]

'i desire that woman in real life but i can't have her so i'll play a rape game and virtually relieve my sexual frustration instead'.

Whoa just reading through to get the thread out of unread and this stood out as kinda scary - seeking out simulated rape is way different to seeking out simulated sex, like "porn" vs "snuff" kinda distinction.

I kinda understand the violence one because if someone is pissing you off I can understand wanting to hit them - with someone not having sex with you, raping them is very different to getting to have sex with them.

Re: not separating them so much, I wonder why that is?
You feel raping someone is in the same bucket as smacking their head in with a bat?

Re: it being a mechanic vs not a mechanic, what Schoq said.

[mono]

as if that makes a difference?

what do you mean? of course it makes a difference whether it's a mechanic or not.

[Schoq]

in relation to what paul said? nope

[mono]

in relation to what paul said? nope

if we are talking about already problematic people then wouldn't it be better then if those sexually frustrated potential rapists vent their steam through a videogame instead of actually raping someone?

now we are taking it to the very extreme aren't we?

[Schoq]

you're quoting me but not replying to something I said

but yeah, obviously, the question is if that's how it works though.
it's also possible that it nurtures such desires in people who would otherwise not have them. it's always been a subject of much debate and research.

[mono]

you're quoting me but not replying to something I said

but yeah, obviously, the question is if that's how it works though.
it's also possible that it nurtures such desires in people who would otherwise not have them. it's always been subject of much debate and research.

oh, so you mean similarly to the debate of what effect violence in entertainment media has on us in particular videogames?

maybe there is more to rape portrayal but i can't differentiate.

[Schoq]

it's not actually relevant to what paul said though: wanting to defeat enemies in battle and wanting to rape someone are different desires: wanting to see one does not equal wanting the other

similarly to how you may feel the most uncomfortable during a "press X to break finger!" torture QTE in a game where you kill people by the hundreds.

dominating and torturing someone in a vulnerable position is seriously a completely different kind of violence and should be treated differently.

[mono]

that is basically what i meant talking about rape as a mechanic or not. i don't equal rape and violence in every aspect, as subjects they are equally valid to have in hotline miami but not with the same treatment. i thought that is what we were debating.

[AshfordPride]

Just played the PAX demo.

The fake rape scene has been removed.

Alright, in all seriousness...

I kind of don't know how to feel about this.  We've really only got a glimpse of what this game is about.  I'm not sure if this whole thing is a story within a story, or if it's about the events in the movie starting to mirror real life of vice versa...  All I know is that I'm not comfortable weighing in on this without knowing the full picture.  What I understand is that the in-game movie is a movie about Jacket, and it's completely off base from the true story.  Now Jacket's story is being muddled and mixed up to the point where Jacket saving that woman has been misconstrued to him forcing himself on her.  Maybe it's the only way they could think to discredit a murderous, aimless psychopath.

They seem to be aware of the unpleasantness of the whole ordeal, and I think that's kind of why they pull back.  Doesn't anyone think it's funny that right as we're on the edge of our seat, about to do something so entirely needlessly despicable we're pulled thankfully yanked back to 'reality' by some stuffy director shouting complaints?  I'm kind of wondering if this is the plan, to have these horrible things your gang is doing always interrupted by the fact that it's a film.  Every crescendo of awfulness stops, until it doesn't.  Until you finally do do something and you don't have some funny scene with a director asking for more passion, more oomph.

I liked the story in Hotline Miami, and I don't really want to think that they just needlessly went off the deep end here.  I'd like to think they have a plan.  I'd like to...

Of course the argument here really isn't about merit or implication, but just about the fact that this subject matter is at all featured in my violent cartoon murder simulator video game.  And that's all just kind of dumb...  This is the same forum that I got into a shouting match over what people who create video games should be allowed to do, isn't it?  And wasn't I the guy asking the creators to not do the things they wanted to because it offended my precious sensibilities?

including rape in there adds a whole new element to a game. it makes it into a game about 'i desire that woman in real life but i can't have her so i'll play a rape game and virtually relieve my sexual frustration instead'. it's a fundamentally different reason for playing a game, because instead of just relieving anger frustrations you're also relieving sexual frustrations

Paul, this just seems baseless.  I'd like to think that the number of people who would legitimately act with this sort of sentiment are so small they aren't even worth acknowledging.  I just don't think anyone brings that level of bitterness and resentment to escapism unless they're already long gone.  At that point I think the content of a story is the least of our worries about this hypothetical person.

dominating and torturing someone in a vulnerable position is seriously a completely different kind of violence and should be treated differently.

The first game had plenty of instances where you'd needlessly finish guards who weren't quite dead.  It was treated with the same level of clout as murdering anyone else was.  Nobody really cared about finishing someone off when they've already been reduced to a helpless state, they happily snapped necks, slit throats, and bashed in skulls. 

I really think the discussion about this as a mechanics or implications is just dancing around the issue that some people can't stand deviant sexual content in any sort of context.  No amount of explanation or apologizing for the author is really going to change how they feel.  Everyone has a different reason, or a statistic to quote, or a hypothetical worst case scenario, but it all just comes down to the fact that this game removes them from their comfort zone.

And as well all know, art should never do that.