next »

[AshfordPride]

anyone who says that rape portrayals and game violence are equal is just a fucking moron and should be ignored

it's literally the most boring / idiotic argument in this thread, and that's saying a lot

Yawn, snooze, snore!

Wake me up when this bore fest ends, will ya?  

Man I really wish those mysterious people who keep implying those things would stop!  It's like I'm counting sheep over here man.  Forget Ambien, because someone needs to bottle the things that are coming out of that guys mouth!  Don't drive or operate heavy machinery while reading this topic.  Yeesh!

I'm just so bored with having to talk about stuff that I'm obviously right about!  Stay tuned for my next post about how the sky is blue, eh gamers?  

[AshfordPride]

Art is order.  But order is not necessarily just, kind, or beautiful.  Order may be arbitrary, harsh, and cruel.  Art has nothing to do with morality.  Moral themes may be present, but they are incidental, simply grounding an art work in a particular place and time.

Art is sacrificial, turning its inherent aggression against both artist and representation.  Nietzsche says "Almost everything we call 'higher culture' is based on the spiritualization of cruelty.  Literature's endless murders and disasters are there for contemplative pleasure, not moral lesson.  Their status as fiction, removed into a sacred precinct, intensifies our pleasure by guaranteeing that contemplation can not turn into action.  No lunge by a compassionate spectator can avert the cool inevitability of that hieratic ceremony, ritually replayed through time.  The blood that is shed will always be shed.  Ritual in theater or church is amoral fixation, dispelling anxiety by formalizing and freezing emotion.  The ritual of art is the cruel law of pain made pleasure.

(Hold on dude, I'll talk about relevance here in a sec.  These quotes don't deserved to be flanked by my own sarcasm.)

(Bobo, please, patience is a virtue and I have hamburgers to defrost!)

[feminazi]

ooh i must hate rape because i hate sex! derp derp pdrpeperp sorry i forgot rape is essential to male heterosexuality and not liking it makes you a prude

[feminazi]

btw people do feel uncomfortable by many violent game scenes and theres plenty of controversy behind those, to think that people are only mad at rape and not "violence" is so you can lie to yourself about how sex and rape are the 2 offlimit things in art. i'd say it's the closest you can get to the status quo

[ஒழுக்கின்மை (Paul Eres)]

I really think the discussion about this as a mechanics or implications is just dancing around the issue that some people can't stand deviant sexual content in any sort of context.  No amount of explanation or apologizing for the author is really going to change how they feel.  Everyone has a different reason, or a statistic to quote, or a hypothetical worst case scenario, but it all just comes down to the fact that this game removes them from their comfort zone.

same thing applies in reverse, though; most of the gut reaction of gamers defending rape in their games at all costs comes from emotion rather than reason. i'm not sure what relevance this has. pointing out that humans are irrational is normal, but in discussions, it's safe to say that both sides are about equally irrational; both are composed largely of irrational people with a couple of rational ones on each side. incorrect positions are held by many rational people, and correct positions are held by many irrational people

in practice, ironically, the biggest reason to bring up irrationality is if you yourself are being irrational, because it's a way to convince yourself that you are right by focusing on the character flaws of the other person rather than on what they are saying. the true purpose of most ad hominem and straw men is not to convince others, but to convince oneself

Paul, this just seems baseless.  I'd like to think that the number of people who would legitimately act with this sort of sentiment are so small they aren't even worth acknowledging.  I just don't think anyone brings that level of bitterness and resentment to escapism unless they're already long gone.  At that point I think the content of a story is the least of our worries about this hypothetical person.

it's not baseless but perhaps you don't have knowledge of the base? i thought it was pretty common knowledge though that people play violent games to relieve stress, to take out their anger in a healthy way. that's what a good portion of them claim as a reason for why they play them. many gamers defend violence in games for that reason, they see it as catharsis. it's virtual relieving of violent urges.

it's also not that much of a stretch to say that pornography is virtual relieving of sexual urges. that's even more recognized.

putting the two together, is it really that much of a stretch to say that playing a rape game (not necessarily hotline miami 2 because it's a small part of it, but something like rapelay or other japanese erotic games that focus on rape) works similarly?

i really think you are blinded by icycalm's theories here. it's true that games are escapism, done to relax. but *how* exactly do they relax you? not be *only* taking you away from reality, but taking you away from reality in such a way that it deals with reality indirectly, relieving the tensions of reality you have. dreams work similarly. if it were true that games were pure escapism and had no cathartic value, why would more angry people gravitate towards violent games? why would analytic people gravitate towards mystery novels? why would romantic people gravitate towards romance novels? shouldn't they want to *escape* their real-life interests or problems in art? but that isn't what happens empirically.

[Dragonmaw]

To note:

The woman still crawls away, and you still approach her with the phrase 'Finish Her' flashing on-screen. Instead of dropping trou, though, the main character grabs her head as if to do the head slamming execution, and the games cuts to the director junk.

[AshfordPride]

watching someone get shot in call of duty, a more or less bloodless activity, which is closer to jumping on a fucking goomba in mario than any real depiction of someone getting shot, is not the same as watching a rape scene??  ?  ?? ? ? ? ? ?

You're not watching a rape scene.  The act in question is a depiction of a depiction of a rape scene.  You're playing a video game of a movie of a rape that doesn't happen.  It all seems pretty tame to me, really.  But rape, regardless of context or how it's depicted, is apparently something our babytown medium just can't handle.

ooh i must hate rape because i hate sex!

Stop.

This doesn't help anyone when you just assume I'm the imaginary worst case scenario of someone to talk with.  I'm not here to validate how right you are by making a fool of myself no matter how many poorly spelled, lower caps words you shove in my mouth.

But, I don't know, are you sex-negative?  You scoff at that, but isn't that a thing?  I'm sure some people out there who take issue with this might be coming from that sort of place.  These are crazy times.

btw people do feel uncomfortable by many violent game scenes and theres plenty of controversy behind those

And where has the controversy with violent games gotten us?  

to think that people are only mad at rape and not "violence" is so you can lie to yourself about how sex and rape are the 2 offlimit things in art.

I've never heard anyone say anything about how violent Hotline Miami is.  When these little pixel people want to kill each other in the most graphic way the art style can communicate, it's fine.  But suddenly these pixel people can commit a different shade of atrocity and it has all this weight to it.  I don't get it.  If we were to make these little pixel people actually hump it'd look so ludicrous you'd spit your Mountain Dew all over the screen when you see it.

i'd say it's the closest you can get to the status quo

So mainstream!  

same thing applies in reverse, though; most of the gut reaction of gamers defending rape in their games at all costs comes from emotion rather than reason.

What emotions?  Everything I said in my first posts was about how unsure I was about the content and depiction of what was going on.  First of all, I don't understand why we're up in arms about the very idea of rape.  Secondly, I can't come up with a reason as to why we should disallow someone from doing what they want to do.  Let it come out, say you hate it, write a whole Kotaku post about it.  I might even be there with you!  But you have to let this stuff happen before you can condemn or praise it.  The only thing I have to guide me on this is the last game they made, which gives me enough trust to think that they had a reason behind doing what they're doing.

I'm sure the whole thing is going to be removed thanks to "feedback" anyway.

because it's a way to convince yourself that you are right by focusing on the character flaws of the other person rather than on what they are saying.

It's not a flaw to not be able to handle sexual content.

I can't stand the sight of realistically rotting or decaying flesh.  I remember I once ripped a Resident Evil ad out of a magazine because it disturbed me so much.  Like, this woman had her cheek rotting off and...  Ew.  This really isn't a flaw, it's preference, but it sure would be if I went around beating a drum about how this content has no place in the things I enjoy and no practical or artistic use.

it's not baseless but perhaps you don't have knowledge of the base? i thought it was pretty common knowledge though that people play violent games to relieve stress, to take out their anger in a healthy way.

I think that's kind of a bullshit bone we give video games.  How they help with hand eye coordination, or they improve decision time, or they make us better team players.  It's an easy pill to swallow for people who are leery about video games.  In reality the reason for violence in video games goes back to the previous quote I posted about violence and art.  That's why I posted it, after all.

i really think you are blinded by icycalm's theories here.

Oh my god.  Is this going to hang over my head for the rest of my life?  Why doesn't eva get the I Love Icycalm badge of discredidation every time she posts?  Their ideas were so in sync he published an "essay" she wrote on his site.  I'm some jackoff he banned in two posts.  

[ஒழுக்கின்மை (Paul Eres)]

i feel like your replies aren't actually replying to what i'm saying, so i'm not even sure what the quote-reply format is intended to do. it's like half the time i can't even understand how what you say below what i say is in any way connected to it. what virtue does that 'reply line by line' style actually have? it seems to obfuscate things more than clarify them

for example, to illustrate: i wasn't saying that you in particular are being emotional, i was saying that many people on both sides are being emotional. claiming that i'm saying you personally are being emotional is nonsense, i said nothing at all similar to that

[feminazi]

ooh i must hate rape because i hate sex!

Stop.
This doesn't help anyone when you just assume I'm the imaginary worst case scenario of someone to talk with. I'm not here to validate how right you are by making a fool of myself no matter how many poorly spelled, lower caps words you shove in my mouth.

I really think the discussion about this as a mechanics or implications is just dancing around the issue that some people can't stand deviant sexual content in any sort of context.

I'll write "correctly" and put on the "calm and reasonable/logical" internet face today if that saves you from MRA breakdowns.

But, I don't know, are you sex-negative?

I'm sex-positive about my sexuality: consensual sex and that isn't misogynistic and that isn't about male power dominance. When people argue sex-negative and sex-positive feminism it concerns with men asking women "How do you feel about sex in art?" which translates to "How do you feel about hetero male perspective sex?" if you look at what art is, and to all that i'll gladly take the title of sex negative feminist or prude or whatever judgment if that's what makes you feel comfortable about your nasty rape fetish.

You scoff at that, but isn't that a thing?  I'm sure some people out there who take issue with this might be coming from that sort of place.  These are crazy times.

Do you really think people who are against rape are against sex? "This doesn't help anyone when you just assume I'm the imaginary worst case scenario of someone to talk with." No, I don't think it's a thing. I think it has to do with your false equating of sex and rape.

btw people do feel uncomfortable by many violent game scenes and theres plenty of controversy behind those

And where has the controversy with violent games gotten us?

Rephrase your question.

to think that people are only mad at rape and not "violence" is so you can lie to yourself about how sex and rape are the 2 offlimit things in art.

I've never heard anyone say anything about how violent Hotline Miami is.  When these little pixel people want to kill each other in the most graphic way the art style can communicate, it's fine.  But suddenly these pixel people can commit a different shade of atrocity and it has all this weight to it.  I don't get it.  If we were to make these little pixel people actually hump it'd look so ludicrous you'd spit your Mountain Dew all over the screen when you see it.

When people are offended by violence they are offended by context, not the level of gore or blood, mainly because we're already used to things bleeding. There's reasons why people are offended by the torture scene in Splinter Cell: Blacklist or the civilian shooting in Modern Warfare 2 than something like chainsawing aliens to gibs in Gears of War. Again, you're the one saying crazy things like "when people see pixel people humping," equating it with a rape scene.

i'd say it's the closest you can get to the status quo

So mainstream!

Rape culture, and I know you hate that term, how about "rape apologism" is pretty mainstream.

First of all, I don't understand why we're up in arms about the very idea of rape.

Uh...

Oh my god.  Is this going to hang over my head for the rest of my life?  Why doesn't eva get the I Love Icycalm badge of discredidation every time she posts?  Their ideas were so in sync he published an "essay" she wrote on his site.  I'm some jackoff he banned in two posts.  

I get the "she's crazy" discrediadation every time I post so it's about the same. Also, I wrote that "essay" for TIGForums, he published it without my permission. I have never signed up for his forum or joined his cult. So yeah, live with your mistakes, as Nitchyman would say.

[ஒழுக்கின்மை (Paul Eres)]

icycalm follower is characterized by several core things

- replies to stuff line by line
- believes in complexity-difficulty and escapism as the most important values videogames provide
- believes videogames are in danger of being destroyed (by art games, indies, casuals, or various other enemies)

i'd say that regardless of whether icycalm banned you or not, you are an icycalm follower as long as you exhibit those traits. if you don't want to be treated as one, you'd have to either abandon those core traits or live with the label

[gimymblert]

Samtagonist not seeing the debate over violence is dishonest at best (because being part of gamer culture it's impossible to not see it), I mean it's like THE hot button, there isn't a weak for it to be addressed in one way or another, the whole notgame was a criticism of that, game like gone home are direct reaction to that, the whole bioshock infinite had raise some flag etc...

[ஒழுக்கின்மை (Paul Eres)]

Samtagonist not seeing the debate over violence is dishonest at best (because being part of gamer culture it's impossible to not see it), I mean it's like THE hot button, there isn't a weak for it to be addressed in one way or another, the whole notgame was a criticism of that, game like gone home are direct reaction to that, the whole bioshock infinite had raise some flag etc...

that's a pretty good point. violence in videogames is a really big issue that's often talked about. saying 'nobody minds violence in videogames' is pretty wrong. *gamers* don't mind violence in videogames, but everyone else does

[gimymblert]

weak = week

[AshfordPride]

First of all, I don't understand why we're up in arms about the very idea of rape.

Uh...

Look, eva, I know it's probably far to late for this, but I legitimately feel like we got off on the wrong foot.  I legitimately don't get it, and what doesn't help is that when I say this all I get back is an OF CUORSE YOU DONT.  I don't get it, it's not an issue for me, and talking to someone like you is the first time I'm even hearing something of a counterpoint.  So when you go off on crazy shitposting, I get nothing.  It's not an attempt to discredit you, I just legitimately can't give a fuck when you're posting things that are considered a little far flung for me in with the most batshit syntax you have at your disposal.  

Again, you're the one saying crazy things like "when people see pixel people humping," equating it with a rape scene.

The point I was trying to make is that at this point it's kind of ludicrous to think of something so removed from an actual human being that it's really hard to think of them as sexual entities.  This isn't about a rape, it's about the idea of a rape.  The idea of the larger cultural ramifications and the culture surrounding it when it's really just a shitty sprite dropping his pants.

"How do you feel about sex in art?" which translates to "How do you feel about hetero male perspective sex?" if you look at what art is, and to all that i'll gladly take the title of sex negative feminist or prude or whatever judgment if that's what makes you feel comfortable about your nasty rape fetish.

But I don't understand why you don't want to glean anything from it.  Prevalence aside, the hetero male perspective on sex still is a perspective on sex.  I've experienced art that concerns people from perspectives other than this, and it's fascinating.  I just don't understand why one viewpoint deserves to be trashed because of it's frequency.  

Rephrase your question.

We've been spinning our wheels with the issue of violence in video games.  Maybe it's for the worst but I don't think video games have budged despite any level of dissent and disapproval that comes their way.  People have taken issue with violent content in video games, and they've never really gotten any sort of concession or found a majority to agree with them.  I just don't see where rallying against content in art gets us in general.  It seems that more often than not, content wins over whatever fringe group protests against it.  I don't see where it gets us.  

icycalm follower is characterized by several core things

You people care more about Icycalm than I do, holy shit.  

I reply like that because that's how it works on the forum I'm usually on.  I value confidence and friction over whatever that shit is.  Also, video games are constantly dying only to be reborn so they might die again.  

So there.  Myth busted.  

I mean it's like THE hot button,

It's the hot button issue that will forever be etched in countless webcomics across time, with more 3/4th posed Jack Thompsons than you'll ever know.

Why do we care what people who don't play video games think about video games, anyway?  They aren't here.  You can talk all the shit about them you'd like, you know.  We don't have to listen to the people who say Doom caused Columbine.  

[ThemsAllTook]

Why do we care what people who don't play video games think about video games, anyway?  They aren't here.  You can talk all the shit about them you'd like, you know.

People aren't born as either gamers or non-gamers. Seems like a pretty insular way of thinking. If you can attract a playerbase beyond what you already have by changing the content of your game a little bit, that's interesting, and might be worth doing if it doesn't compromise what you're trying to do with the game. Presumably making this change didn't compromise cactus and Dennis's vision, and having made it, their game might be open to more people to play. I don't see a downside. They might have gotten a lot of hate directed their way if they stuck to their guns, but with an audience large enough they'll spew hate at you for anything.

[Sved]

To me, rape is considered psychological horror, it plays on basic fears and primal impulses, it is a heated society issue that is addressed now, it has lots of grey areas, is very personal and intimate and a very powerful topic overall.

Books or movies explored it since very long, both from the point of the view of the perpetrator(s) or the victim(s), usually exploring both and their consequences (or the lack of) in society or on the psyche of the characters and their relatives.

It is not easy to talk about,and Dennaton may not be the best people to do this, but I think there should be more mature games that bring these kinds of difficult topics to the gaming audience.

[feminazi]

"How do you feel about sex in art?" which translates to "How do you feel about hetero male perspective sex?" if you look at what art is, and to all that i'll gladly take the title of sex negative feminist or prude or whatever judgment if that's what makes you feel comfortable about your nasty rape fetish.

But I don't understand why you don't want to glean anything from it.  Prevalence aside, the hetero male perspective on sex still is a perspective on sex.  I've experienced art that concerns people from perspectives other than this, and it's fascinating.  I just don't understand why one viewpoint deserves to be trashed because of it's frequency.  

I didn't mean I'm negative about it because it's the most prevalent (I mention it's prevalence to mean that when people discuss sex they mean male heterosexuality by default) I'm saying male heterosexuality has become aggresive and disgusting and the masculinity and rape themes and whatever that comes out of it is unappealing and I would gladly be sex-negative if that's the kind of art we're discussing.

Again, you're the one saying crazy things like "when people see pixel people humping," equating it with a rape scene.

The point I was trying to make is that at this point it's kind of ludicrous to think of something so removed from an actual human being that it's really hard to think of them as sexual entities.  This isn't about a rape, it's about the idea of a rape.  The idea of the larger cultural ramifications and the culture surrounding it when it's really just a shitty sprite dropping his pants.

I'm going to ignore the whole graphical fidelty of rape discusson because it makes no sense. Here's all you need from the game for it to have some kind of "cultural ramification": it's clearly meant to be a rape scene, there is enough detail to say so, then now there's enough to remind you about rape (which would be bad if you are a victim or know a victim yourself) or make you argue stupid shit on the internet about how rape is the final frontier of libertarian art and therefore making people stop caring about rape is a thing you should be striving for. OK people, stop being sensitive about rape because that's what we need in current society, apparently. anyway for artists, rape has baggage and you can't expect people to ignore real rape when looking at your stupid cartoon rape so if you for some reason want to insert rape and then want to be evaluated outside of cultural context then quit your life.

[Dragonmaw]

Why do we care what people who don't play video games think about video games, anyway? They aren't here.  You can talk all the shit about them you'd like, you know.  We don't have to listen to the people who say Doom caused Columbine.

First off: There's a difference between "Doom cause Columbine" and "treating rape so casually in media is disgusting."

Now, to your main point: Because games are a widespread, important medium, and you should care about what outside people think about it. Incestual reproduction between game developers to create their interactive children can only go so far; building interesting media requires, by very nature, for some people to provide outside perspectives on said media.

Outsider art and outsider critique is very important, because it adds a new voice to the conversation. It's kinda like the complaints Polygon and Escapist received when women for both sites reviewed Dragon's Crown. "Why have a woman review Dragon's Crown," whined the commentators, "it's a game made for men." Because the perspectives of other people, especially people who may take issue with the depiction of their gender as helpless quivering sex kitten, is important.

While I value the opinions of, say, my ubernerd friends when looking for a game to play to derive MAXIMUM ENJOYMENT MODE from, I value outside opinions more for the sake of the medium. Criticism, by necessity, needs new perspectives and new blood at regular intervals. Movies, comics, and books have all shown this to be the case: Outsider critics bash traditionalist media, and outsider artists create counter-culture media. By this act of rebellion, they deepen the cultural meaning of the medium.

[ஒழுக்கின்மை (Paul Eres)]

We've been spinning our wheels with the issue of violence in video games.  Maybe it's for the worst but I don't think video games have budged despite any level of dissent and disapproval that comes their way.  People have taken issue with violent content in video games, and they've never really gotten any sort of concession or found a majority to agree with them.  I just don't see where rallying against content in art gets us in general.  It seems that more often than not, content wins over whatever fringe group protests against it.  I don't see where it gets us.  

this isn't true. it's true that the discussion on violent games hasn't, overall, made violence less extreme in games, if you consider only the most extreme examples. but one thing it *has* done is to create a market for non-violent / casual games. people who want to play non-violent games today, in 2013, have a huge plethora of options that they did not have in 1990, or even in 2000. the biggest budget games still tend to be violent, but with the advent of medium- and small-budget games, the variety of games available to people has increased

also, in certain genres, violence is now less common than it once was. for example, fighting games used to have a lot more blood in them than they do now: i don't even think street fighter 4 has any blood at all, whereas street fighter 2 was full of blood (think of the bloody portraits between battles), mortal kombat even moreso. similarly, there are a lot of bloodless FPS games today, such as halo, they aren't all bloodfests the way they were during the advent of doom clones. it's also more common nowadays to have options to turn the blood off than it was in the past

so i think to say that nothing was accomplished by all the discussion of violence in videogames is a mistake, considering how much violence in videogames has changed since it was brought up

[Nektonico]

So rape > murder, in this current western cultural zeitgeist.