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beetleking22
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« Reply #2440 on: May 01, 2013, 09:27:16 pm »

the difference is in the rudeness of it. he could have said 'games from your country tend to suck', but 'your games suck' makes it more personal. particularly when that guy worked for square-enix, which is known for making games like final fantasy that a lot of westerners make fun of. so he could possibly have meant 'the games of square-enix suck' too.

This is how it went. I dont think that Phil only meant Square-enix game sucks.

The Japanese developer praised the movie and said he was pleased to see how many independent developers had been inspired by games such as Super Mario Bros and Zelda since their childhood.

But when he asked what the panel thought of modern Japanese video games, Phil Fish (pictured) immediately replied “your games just suck” – a comment that sparked an audible reaction from the crowd, though some were cheering.

Others looked on awkwardly as the Japanese developer was then subjected to a string criticisms about game design flaws in his native country. The developer nevertheless thanked the panel for their response and returned to his seat.



« Last Edit: May 01, 2013, 09:38:37 pm by beetleking22 » Logged
deathtotheweird
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« Reply #2441 on: May 01, 2013, 10:28:07 pm »

I thought there were supposed to be really interesting metagame-y puzzles in addition to the exploration platformer aspect?  Has that not showed yet or is it just not that interesting?

I'm about 40% now and haven't seen any of those. Though someone told me about the QR codes, but that honestly doesn't sound very interesting at all. I found some treasure maps, but I'm not really sure how to read them or what purpose they serve. Everyone recommends to find things on your own and not look up a guide, but the vagueness of them doesn't really make me interested in finding out what their purpose is. I just hope they're optional.

The anti-cubes I've encountered are the reward after little block puzzles. They did break up the exploration a tiny amount, but they weren't that compelling. Solutions were obvious and the block handling made solving the puzzles tedious.

And then comes the backtracking, which is also incredibly tedious. There is a world-map, I don't understand why I can't just fast-travel somewhere. Instead I have to traverse entire levels (with varying degrees of platform difficulty) or hope I find a warp gate or shortcut door that brings me closer to my goal (rare). Don't make the mistake I did, don't leave an area unless you're 100% sure you got all the things.
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ஒழுக்கின்மை
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« Reply #2442 on: May 01, 2013, 10:38:46 pm »

that's also my biggest complaint about the game so far. i haven't played it as much as allen, but i don't like that there's no fast travel. it feels like an artificial way of extending game time. even zelda 1 had fast travel, in the form of the flute that would warp you to any of the 8 dungeon entrances. you'd think in 2013 we could have something from 1986.

i do like many other things about the game though and still think it's worth playing. the visual style is pretty good, and the controls feel good. i just don't understand the decision to limit the player's mobility to such a degree
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Forstride
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« Reply #2443 on: May 01, 2013, 10:52:22 pm »

but i don't like that there's no fast travel.

Yes there is.  Keep playing.
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ஒழுக்கின்மை
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« Reply #2444 on: May 01, 2013, 11:03:58 pm »

if you mean the warp points, i don't count those, because you can't actually warp to them from anywhere on the map. fast travel doesn't mean merely warps between points, it means being able to go to different areas of the map from anywhere on the map, not just from specific locations. e.g. like the flute in zelda, or the grail in la mulana

i have on good word from those who have completed the game that there's never a method of fast travel, there's only those warp points

but even if those people are somehow wrong and there is fast travel, making the player wait so long into the game to get access to it isn't a good idea, because what's the use of it if you can't actually use it until very late into the game?
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Forstride
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« Reply #2445 on: May 01, 2013, 11:13:44 pm »

The game is heavily focused on exploration.  There's already a way to warp to the main areas in the game, what more do you want?  If there was a way to warp to every single area in the game, it'd be crappy IMO.
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ஒழுக்கின்மை
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« Reply #2446 on: May 01, 2013, 11:26:54 pm »

i already explained what more that i want: fast travel. the ability to go to those warp points, from the worldmap, without having to re-play through platforming challenges that i already played through once

and of course the game is focused on exploration. but almost every game that i am aware of that focuses on exploration has some form of fast travel. some examples:

- most of the zelda series
- la mulana
- the elder scrolls games
- dragon quest games (the "return" spell)
- waking mars
(could go on)

i think it adds to the exploration to be able to go back to old areas easily and explore them, without having to walk all the way there or find the nearest warp point and hope it leads to somewhere closer. it's just strange to me that it wouldn't have something that so many other exploration games do have. being forced to go through many of the same area several times even though i've already collected all the cubes in that area and even though the map tells me there are no secrets remaining in that area sort of put me off from playing the game, it didn't add to the exploration, it took away from it
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« Reply #2447 on: May 01, 2013, 11:57:55 pm »

The hate and "controversy" surrounding Fish's comments on spreadsheet pcs and jrpgs sucking is way overblown. Why are people getting so upset about some dudes random poorly articulated and overly generalized opinion? It's ridonkulous is what it is.

That said, mooooootherfuuuucker those guys gotta get on it and fix their steam release. The game won't even load on my laptop. got the patch, updated graphics drivers, nada.
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deathtotheweird
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« Reply #2448 on: May 02, 2013, 12:35:45 am »

Exactly. I just want to be able to skip places I've already been, it's super tedious going back and forth doing the same platforming challenges I've already done multiple times just so I can get one tiny cube piece I accidentally missed. Once you've already been to an area, there's little reason to not allow me to warp back to it.

Like Paul said, the forced backtracking feels like padding. It doesn't add anything to the game and instead it just makes me bored; the warp gates do little to alleviate this. Even if it did have a fast travel function, those who don't like it wouldn't have to use it. It would change absolutely nothing for you, but would make my experience much more enjoyable.

I honestly can't see how you would enjoy traveling through the same area multiple times, doing the exact same jumps, just to get where you need to be. Feels like a colossal waste of time when I look at the map and see where I need to be and all the various areas I've already been that I need to traverse just to get there. Yawn.

Aside from that it's pretty enjoyable, but I do wish there were more puzzles to break up some of the exploration. Some areas give you too many cube pieces for little effort, I feel a bit more time could have went into those areas to make them interesting.
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« Reply #2449 on: May 02, 2013, 01:15:33 am »

There are a lot of hidden shortcut doors that only open after visiting the rooms on both sides, although I had beaten most of the game by the time I noticed them. Also after a certain point you can just skip all the platforming if you feel like it. (and know how)
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« Reply #2450 on: May 02, 2013, 01:58:21 am »

Does this have all the bugs of the xbox version? Like, is it a simple port, or did they rewrite the code?
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Ashkin
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« Reply #2451 on: May 02, 2013, 03:40:57 am »

Beat the 'main' part of the game.
Having so much trouble deciphering this language- I'm a really bad decrypter. All I've done is copy down all the glyphs and some example words, plus figure out the number system (I think)
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« Reply #2452 on: May 02, 2013, 04:23:38 am »

This is how it went.

Again, that's what was reported, but it doesn't reflect the whole event. "Your games suck" started a bigger argument (Jon Blow was also participating, it was for IGtM) about how recent japanese games, like western ones pretty much, have a lot of hand-holding which both Fish and Blow don't like at all.

re. Fez...
the camera rotating doesn't really add a whole lot, only managing to slightly distance the game from other similar exploration based platformers. remove the camera rotating and the game's averageness would become much more apparent.

it seems like they spent all their time and effort into the presentation and not the game-play. if the graphics/animations and music/sound effects weren't so good the game wouldn't be worth playing at all. but luckily they are all very high quality and make up for the rather uninteresting game-play.

I'm obviously not into Phil's brain, but the more I think about Fez (and it's a game I've spent a lot of time thinking about since it was released on 360), the more I'm convinced that the camera rotation was never intended as a "gameplay mechanic", but rather just a way of providing more depth to the environments and the exploration. I don't think dexterity-based challenges were ever meant to be obstacles, but rather just a way of breaking the potential monotony of walking around. Fez is pretty much a game that, to me, seems to be entirely about immersing yourself into a world, and there is no friction at all to prevent that - unbroken navigational flow is super important and difficult platform sections would have gone against that intention I think.

So, yeah, it's not a game about "gameplay" in the mst common sense of that term. Yeah, a lot of effort went into the presentation. But honestly I prefer the game for it. You don't blame Proteus for its bland gameplay - the point of the game is to walk around. You don't blame Dear Esther for not having platforming sections. In the same way, I'm actually thankful that Fez is focused on being so pleasant to navigate, and that's due to the presentation, and also the jump's tuning which is basicall perfect.

Re. lack of fast travel, I also think it's sometimes cumbersome to go through several areas just to get to a warp gate, but overall imo this is better than fast travel of any kind, for the same reason I stated above: it increased my immersion and was cohesive with the general enjoyment I got out of simply navigating. It also reinforced the "see patterns everywhere" element, which becomes fairly unavoidable after you've spent som time with the game and are trying to uncover its deepest secrets - as you go from point A to point B, you start to notice tons of things on the way; with fast travel, that wouldn't have happened, and potentially the game wuld have simply felt like "warp to A, then warp to B, then warp to C" with most time spent on the fast travel menu than actually in the levels.
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beetleking22
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« Reply #2453 on: May 02, 2013, 05:40:37 am »

[

Again, that's what was reported, but it doesn't reflect the whole event. "Your games suck" started a bigger argument (Jon Blow was also participating, it was for IGtM) about how recent japanese games, like western ones pretty much, have a lot of hand-holding which both Fish and Blow don't like at all.



Maybe he didint meant that but he would have been able to explain it a bit better as the saying "Your games just sucks".



Or did he? This is huge generalization.


Phil:

"And people have gotten it wrong. I said modern Japanese games suck,"


« Last Edit: May 02, 2013, 05:47:13 am by beetleking22 » Logged
Eigen
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« Reply #2454 on: May 02, 2013, 05:45:40 am »

I'm loving the game but I haven't found a good set of keys to use on the keyboard ... right now I move with the arrow keys, turn the perspective with A and D and jump with S. Doesn't feel right. Maybe I'm just not used to holding two hands on the keyboard when playing. Mouse+WASD has become second nature it seems. What keys are you guys using?
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« Reply #2455 on: May 02, 2013, 06:53:50 am »

Or did he? This is huge generalization.

Yes, he did, that's my point. Only the "your games suck" phrase was reported by news outlets but in the actual Q&A session after the film they spent some time discussing this and explaining what they meant. Obviously the phrasing of that sentence is still harsh, but it was meant a "shocker" or whatever that was supposed to be heard within the context of a longer answer.

edit: anyway I'm not going to spend more time talking about Phil Fish, I think he's getting way more flak than he deserves (and probably handles it in a rather immature way himself) but it doesn't matter let's talk about fez
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« Reply #2456 on: May 02, 2013, 10:23:33 am »

Beat the 'main' part of the game.
Having so much trouble deciphering this language- I'm a really bad decrypter. All I've done is copy down all the glyphs and some example words, plus figure out the number system (I think)
For the language there's a location with a "rosetta stone." It's hinted at pretty subtly, if you know much about typography.
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beetleking22
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« Reply #2457 on: May 02, 2013, 10:56:15 am »

Or did he? This is huge generalization.

Yes, he did, that's my point. Only the "your games suck" phrase was reported by news outlets but in the actual Q&A session after the film they spent some time discussing this and explaining what they meant. Obviously the phrasing of that sentence is still harsh, but it was meant a "shocker" or whatever that was supposed to be heard within the context of a longer answer.

edit: anyway I'm not going to spend more time talking about Phil Fish, I think he's getting way more flak than he deserves (and probably handles it in a rather immature way himself) but it doesn't matter let's talk about fez

Yeah I agree with you..  I should not have brought the subject because its is just stupid arguing about this one.. I apologize bringing this topic back.
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« Reply #2458 on: May 03, 2013, 10:49:12 am »

Ok, I've played a bunch ... haven't hit any savegame problems or anything yet Smiley

I like the game a lot; it really is a joy to explore.  I haven't found backtracking to be too much of a pain; so far (I have 16 cubes) I've just been able to go through areas collecting everything along one path, and the warp back...  I can see that it would be nice if there were e.g. an item to let me warp back to nearest gate from any point, though.  I don't think that would break immersion really.

I don't like code-deciphering-type puzzles so I cheated a little bit.  Not really convinced it ruined anything for me but I can see why some people would really enjoy figuring out that sort of thing on their own.
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Ashkin
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« Reply #2459 on: May 03, 2013, 02:35:27 pm »

Beat the 'main' part of the game.
Having so much trouble deciphering this language- I'm a really bad decrypter. All I've done is copy down all the glyphs and some example words, plus figure out the number system (I think)
For the language there's a location with a "rosetta stone." It's hinted at pretty subtly, if you know much about typography.
Is it the book artifact? If not, well... I don't know much about typography...
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