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TIGSource ForumsCommunityTownhallForum IssuesArchived subforums (read only)CreativeWritingI don't write. What should I look for in a writing teammate?
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Author Topic: I don't write. What should I look for in a writing teammate?  (Read 3631 times)
DrDerekDoctors
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« Reply #20 on: October 03, 2013, 02:50:50 AM »

It makes total sense. If they're just writing dialogue, why would you need someone who can write a novel? A novel might contain great dialogue, but there's no need for novel writing skills for someone writing just dialogue. I'm not saying DON'T get someone who can write a novel, I'm saying it's not relevant if they're just writing dialogue. However, someone with script writing skills would be far more relevant.
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ஒழுக்கின்மை (Paul Eres)
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« Reply #21 on: October 03, 2013, 03:06:32 AM »

that's an extremely reductionist way of looking at it. most of the skills of any type of storytelling transfer over to any other media. for illustration, most of the best star trek episodes were written by sci-fi novelists, not by people who only write for television, and a good part of the best game writing was done by people who are also novelists

writing isn't just about writing "parts" of a thing, as if you were assembling a machine in a factory. when you are writing dialogue, you need to have a good sense of character and how to portray that through characterization, how plotting works, how to integrate the theme, how to build and resolve conflict, various structures of story that work (e.g. three-act structure and similar), that kind of stuff. there's a lot that goes into good dialog besides "being good at dialog" in isolation

you can acquire those skills in places beside writing novels of course (like you could also write plays, epic poems, etc.), but it's such a dominant form that almost every writer has written a novel (especially with the advent of nanowrimo), so reading their novels is often the best way to judge their skill as a writer, particularly because it's harder to get a sense of a writer based on small bits of writing (such as short stories)

what you are saying is equivalent to saying 'if you are looking for a musician for your game, and your game is a rpg, look for only musicians who have done music for other rpgs, don't look for musicians who are good in general or musicians who have never made music for a game'. you can see what's wrong with that, right? the skills of a musician transfer over, whether they are writing for movies, television, games, or anything else. same thing with writers
« Last Edit: October 03, 2013, 03:20:30 AM by Paul Eres » Logged

DrDerekDoctors
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« Reply #22 on: October 03, 2013, 04:18:14 AM »

that's an extremely reductionist way of looking at it. most of the skills of any type of storytelling transfer over to any other media. for illustration, most of the best star trek episodes were written by sci-fi novelists, not by people who only write for television, and a good part of the best game writing was done by people who are also novelists

Sure, absolutely, they transfer over. However, I'm saying they don't HAVE to be a novelist to write for games. If you don't limit yourself to novelists and people with a great appreciation for the classics (as you posited in an earlier post) then you'll have access to a larger pool of writers, many of which could be great, despite preferring to watch Toy Story rather than read Tolstoy.

writing isn't just about writing "parts" of a thing, as if you were assembling a machine in a factory. when you are writing dialogue, you need to have a good sense of character and how to portray that through characterization, how plotting works, how to integrate the theme, how to build and resolve conflict, various structures of story that work (e.g. three-act structure and similar), that kind of stuff. there's a lot that goes into good dialog besides "being good at dialog" in isolation

Those aren't skills that only novelists have, though. I'm just trying to point out that you don't necessarily have to choose a good writer purely through them being a voracious reader of novels. They may choose to immerse themselves in films, for instance.

you can acquire those skills in places beside writing novels of course (like you could also write plays, epic poems, etc.), but it's such a dominant form that almost every writer has written a novel (especially with the advent of nanowrimo), so reading their novels is often the best way to judge their skill as a writer, particularly because it's harder to get a sense of a writer based on small bits of writing (such as short stories)

I'm not sure that almost every writer has written a novel, you know. Most of the game writers I know haven't, to my knowledge. Really, one of the best way to judge a potential game writer is to play another game they've written.

what you are saying is equivalent to saying 'if you are looking for a musician for your game, and your game is a rpg, look for only musicians who have done music for other rpgs, don't look for musicians who are good in general or musicians who have never made music for a game'. you can see what's wrong with that, right? the skills of a musician transfer over, whether they are writing for movies, television, games, or anything else. same thing with writers

Perhaps I was a bit unclear and over-zealous in my initial post, however I don't think this analogy holds water at all. I'm saying by all means use all types of musician, however a musician who specialises in RPG music might well be the ticket and shouldn't be discounted because that's all they do. I'm saying be more inclusive.
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ஒழுக்கின்மை (Paul Eres)
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« Reply #23 on: October 03, 2013, 05:25:11 PM »

i didn't say you *have* to be a novelist to write for games. i was just saying having written a novel or two is a great way to tell good writers from bad ones if you are looking for a writer for games and can't tell good writing from bad -- remember the context of the thread

if someone has some other games that they have written the story for, that's a good way to tell someone's skill too, but if *all* they've done is write for games and haven't have anything else published i'd less comfortable with a writer than if they have shown they can write for a variety of media, because the latter means they're adaptable

anyway, this post by jeff vogel reminded me of this thread; worth reading:

http://jeff-vogel.blogspot.com/2013/10/never-write-wacky-surprise-ending-again.html

he talks about why stories in games often suck and what can be done about it, and mentions some of the things i went into about it being important that a writer read a lot, etc.

he mainly focuses on one particular way to identify bad writing -- the 'crazy plot twist' or 'crazy ending'. a surprise ending is often thought of as something desirable when it actually isn't all that great. if a writer relies on twist endings too much, then they probably aren't very good at writing, because they are focusing too much on the events or plot, seeing those as the most important thing, and not enough on the characterization and how the story changes the characters (not to mention that they discourage re-reading or going through the story again, because once you know the plot twist at the end it's not anywhere near as enjoyable the second time through)
« Last Edit: October 03, 2013, 05:30:35 PM by Paul Eres » Logged

DrDerekDoctors
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« Reply #24 on: October 04, 2013, 01:09:50 AM »

i didn't say you *have* to be a novelist to write for games. i was just saying having written a novel or two is a great way to tell good writers from bad ones if you are looking for a writer for games and can't tell good writing from bad -- remember the context of the thread

Okay, fair enough, that's my bad.

if someone has some other games that they have written the story for, that's a good way to tell someone's skill too, but if *all* they've done is write for games and haven't have anything else published i'd less comfortable with a writer than if they have shown they can write for a variety of media, because the latter means they're adaptable

Personally, if I was looking for a games writer and the person only wrote games and wrote them well, I'd be fine with that. Still, that's your prerogative. Smiley

anyway, this post by jeff vogel reminded me of this thread; worth reading:

http://jeff-vogel.blogspot.com/2013/10/never-write-wacky-surprise-ending-again.html

he talks about why stories in games often suck and what can be done about it, and mentions some of the things i went into about it being important that a writer read a lot, etc.

he mainly focuses on one particular way to identify bad writing -- the 'crazy plot twist' or 'crazy ending'. a surprise ending is often thought of as something desirable when it actually isn't all that great. if a writer relies on twist endings too much, then they probably aren't very good at writing, because they are focusing too much on the events or plot, seeing those as the most important thing, and not enough on the characterization and how the story changes the characters (not to mention that they discourage re-reading or going through the story again, because once you know the plot twist at the end it's not anywhere near as enjoyable the second time through)

I shall have a read of that, thanks. I mostly agree about the twist ending issue, although sometimes if it's done especially skillfully then replaying/rewatching makes you pick up on clues you totally missed the first time (and didn't even remember all of when the twist was revealed). However when the entire plot is in service of that twist, it's "meh".
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« Reply #25 on: October 04, 2013, 09:15:01 AM »

Get a sample of their writing in the format you need it. Did you like it? Good.
Ask them to change it. Did they happily do so? Good.

This seems like the best advice I've seen all thread. I've heard similar for directing in theatre, where auditions are best if someone perform the scene you want, but can also take directions.

Now I just have to figure out what the style of writing is that I need... so I guess I should be a bit better read for that, if I want any creative control over that. (Which I guess I do? But my taste is probably terrible still)
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DrDerekDoctors
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« Reply #26 on: October 04, 2013, 10:14:17 AM »

Well, I'd think the style of writing is largely defined by the style of game and even the art style (or rather a mismatch in art and writing may feel odd). D'you know what those are?
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« Reply #27 on: October 06, 2013, 07:41:58 PM »

Simple, bright and distinct colors so that shapes are easily identified. Minimalist in a lot of ways, and meant to be quick to convey information, but a happier theme still. Is there anything like that which appeals to all audiences? Simple and happy sounds like children's novels, Dr. Seuss, etc. I would love to have something simple, yet enjoyable for everyone.
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« Reply #28 on: October 07, 2013, 12:46:06 AM »

That's a good brief, and Dr Seuss is a great reference for a writer, very explicit, and enjoyable for all. If you would define the tone and context of your game as well, you would get a good job ad here.
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... but that is mostly psychological. Check my devlog!
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« Reply #29 on: October 07, 2013, 09:27:17 AM »

I'm less familiar with tone and context - what would be some examples of that?
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« Reply #30 on: October 07, 2013, 06:32:31 PM »

If you give the context and gameplay in few words it would be enough to help, like a dark gritty metroidvania in a rebuilt medieval town on the verge of war or a point'n'click featuring a happy group of friends going for a discovery trip in their magical bus... something to let your writer have a feel for the environment you envison.
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« Reply #31 on: October 07, 2013, 08:11:03 PM »

So character descriptions? Setting? Things that would be starting points for the plot then, and then the writer takes it from there?
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« Reply #32 on: October 07, 2013, 08:59:29 PM »

Yes, it doesn't need to be long, just a sentence and a list of features to get an idea of what you want or what you need in your game. For example :

"a light-hearted steampunk RTS, starring a naive mechanic in an escalating war between two powerful nations"

featuring
- funny dialogues and crazy situations
- anti-heroes thrown in a conflict they have no control over, teaming up to save the world
- opposing sides with their own unique technology tree, featuring over 200 units each with unique background and dialogues
...

and so on, so your team can estimate roughly what they have to do, and how much work is expected from them.

It's best if you can assign priorities and specs to things you need, like technology description is a must and must consider 3 rounds of upgrades, characters backstories need to be 300 words each and 600 max, NPC dialogues are optional and depend on player's gender...

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... but that is mostly psychological. Check my devlog!
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