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[Graham-]

I made this comment in another thread. It is very insightful. It is not easy to understand. In fact, I consider it one of the harder opinions I have about history to understand.

If you want to debate it with me I'd be happy to explain.

Something to start you off:
  . consider what is oppressive to you in your own lives
  . realize what is _necessary_ for happiness, self-fulfillment etc
  . consider the value of these things: respect in personal relationships, control over one's destiny (hard to define), the ability to learn, the right to make a contribution to society in proportion to one's ability

Some more:
  . the ubiquity and necessity of slaves in the ancient world
  . that modern society is not the same as ancient society
  . how critical ancient society was to the development of modern society

Compare to abstract forms of slavery:
  . to your parents (when you are financially dependent, say as a child)
  . to your government's laws
  . to discriminating instituions
  . to your peer groups, and their social power
  . to your boss, educations opportunities, social opportunities based on your "home" society

What is most surprising to me is the casual flippancy some people have to understanding history. The world in the past is non-trivial. You cannot say something so simple as "history has shown that <some abstract concept> was true." History is based on facts, or observations of facts; but abstractions, about how it "all fits together" is conjecture, educated guessing. _Any_ label applied to history, especially one so nuanced, is very difficult to prove. Not realizing this is a strong mark of naivete.

If you can understand why my above statement is true then you are closer to identifying what oppression really is. What are a person's most important rights? What are the things that we really need? Thinking in terms of the right to vote, right to own property, and so on, is very materialistic - that's just a start.

I have come nowhere close to being "convincing" yet. Oppression is a very difficult topic. It is politically, religiously, everything-aly loaded.

Some connections to games:
  . oppressing women in games, through games, in the industry of games
  . the big budget titles oppressing the indies
  . the games community dividing and oppressing each other
  . the person who is socially oppressed locally and turns to games

---

For you thread lawyers out there, anyone can take the discussion in any direction they like, as long as it isn't boring.

[googoogjoob]

[Stimor]

no, it's merely the definition of it

[gggfhfdh]

im loving the way these 2 threads work with each other

[Graham-]

here's a story. I live 2000 years ago. owning slaves is standard. I own a slave. I:
  . respect him
  . give him the opportunity to grow
  . feed/clothe him
  . let him play an important support role in my life

I live today. I have an employee. He can vote, own his own apartment, etc. I:
  . am emotionally abusive to him
  . manipulate him into working 30 years of his life away at a job that he hates by controlling him with fear.

"slave" as an abstraction - like "I am a slave to my libido" - is the definition of oppression. but "slave," as in a person is my property, is something else. since the first meaning is the only applicable one in modern, western, society, and is based on the second, it is easy to understand why they are confused with each other.

this isn't a shitpost. this is called analysis.

[Stimor]

yeah well shit is the analysis of what you eat

[Graham-]

yum.

[googoogjoob]

wow shit i just realized that wage slavery is a thing!!!!!

also if you don't see how one person owning another, even if they give them total freedom in everything else, is oppressive, you are an idiot

[Graham-]

ownership is abstract. everyone controls you in some way. if you think you make your own decisions then you are an idiot. your parents control you, your boss, your girlfriend - christ.

you cannot escape social pressure, or the "oppression" of nature. you just can't. the question is what is the most important freedom? when you try to answer this question you'll realize the discussion is a little more complicated than typical one-liner argument is capable of tackling.

[Cthulhu32]

[FARTRON]

Ok guys, time to come clean cause this thread was really hard to do. Graham is my alt account, it's all just a complex troll.

I was getting tired of it so I figured if I could get the character to "jump the shark" by seeming to literally support SLAVERY but even still people respond to this bullshit. I'm disappointed in all of you and frankly will be more disappointed if you don't ban my alt account which is Graham.

[Graham-]

Ok. Some points.

1. What is okay 2000 years ago is not the same as what is okay today.
2. Slavery exists in India.
3. Slavery is certainly not okay in our society.

All ancient societies used slaves. Without slaves there is no ancient society.

Conscription is a form of slavery.

[MeshGearFox]

Attention y'all:

FUCK. THIS. SHIT.

Ya guys can be lame. Ya guys can do whatever. And it's alright.

Imma just sit here and listen to Fleetwood Mac and everything be alright.

[googoogjoob]

ownership is abstract. everyone controls you in some way. if you think you make your own decisions then you are an idiot. your parents control you, your boss, your girlfriend - christ.

your parents (once you're an adult), boss, girlfriend, etc have no legally-enforcable control over what you choose to do or not do. they may act in ways that restrict or widen your options, or pressure you to make certain decisions, but they can't call the cops to arrest you for violating their wishes in the way a slave's master can do and they can't legally mutilate you at will or lock you in a cage or chain you up

you cannot escape social pressure, or the "oppression" of nature. you just can't. the question is what is the most important freedom? when you try to answer this question you'll realize the discussion is a little more complicated than typical one-liner argument is capable of tackling.

the most important freedom is freedom of thought, all other freedoms flow from it

wow i solved the puzzle

1. What is okay 2000 years ago is not the same as what is okay today.

so why fucking bring it up

[Leon Fook]

Oppressive is a thing, a thing that take some degree of freedom from you. Like a oppressive law, which say you cannot go out at night, you cannot date in Sunday, or maybe you cannot own a pet. It takes away freedom by a little bit.

But slavery is basically making your right/freedom = 0%. You cannot talk to your master, you cannot look at your master while talking to them, you cannot eat in everywhere except your own slave quarter, you cannot blah blah blah in blah blah blah while blah blah blah. Being a slave take every right and freedom from you, and that's oppressive. Ohh, you can't tell your master that you wanna quit. A man chooses, the slave obey.

Of course, i must say the term slave is different between modern society and the past. Everyone can say they were a slave to someone or something, but in truth, that "master" have no right to the "slave" and so when the "slave" choose to leave, they can, compared to the past.

edit: ninja'd by 6 people.

[Kekskiller]

The only real difference between bad and good slavery is the scope of freedom and a slaver's specific lazyness. There is no non-slavery.

[Graham-]

your girlfriend does not have legal control, but she has emotional control. so obviously creating laws to prevent her from having legal control - or be historically relevant, to prevent you from having control over her (i.e. wife) - is good. laws can apply to things that can be objective. it is hard to create laws for "emotional abuse" because we cannot measure it. .... one day we will be able to measure it, and laws will follow.

law develops to match the complexity of society. protecting slaves legally would be too difficult to do and keep society running in the past. so slaves were a necessity - so too is much of the abuse that exists in modern society. consider big banks, oppressing people getting laid off and losing their homes, and emotionally traumatizing their families. we can't make laws to prevent that shit without dismantling capitalism, so we do it really slowly.

the most important freedom is freedom of thought, all other freedoms flow from it

wow i solved the puzzle

Correct. Nice.

1. What is okay 2000 years ago is not the same as what is okay today.

so why fucking bring it up

Because "oppression" is a constantly hot topic on these threads. You learn things through discussion.

[Graham-]

Oppressive is a thing, a thing that take some degree of freedom from you. Like a oppressive law, which say you cannot go out at night, you cannot date in Sunday, or maybe you cannot own a pet. It takes away freedom by a little bit.

But slavery is basically making your right/freedom = 0%. You cannot talk to your master, you cannot look at your master while talking to them, you cannot eat in everywhere except your own slave quarter, you cannot blah blah blah in blah blah blah while blah blah blah. Being a slave take every right and freedom from you, and that's oppressive. Ohh, you can't tell your master that you wanna quit. A man chooses, the slave obey.

Of course, i must say the term slave is different between modern society and the past. Everyone can say they were a slave to someone or something, but in truth, that "master" have no right to the "slave" and so when the "slave" choose to leave, they can, compared to the past.

edit: ninja'd by 6 people.

Poor people cannot do millions of things we can do. Are they necessarily oppressed by this fact alone? A list of "things you cannot do," no matter how long, does not prove oppression. You have to show what a person desires to do. People from the past lived in a different day, and have different desires.

[Cthulhu32]

Ok guys, time to come clean cause this thread was really hard to do. Graham is my alt account, it's all just a complex troll.

I was getting tired of it so I figured if I could get the character to "jump the shark" by seeming to literally support SLAVERY but even still people respond to this bullshit. I'm disappointed in all of you and frankly will be more disappointed if you don't ban my alt account which is Graham.

[Stimor]

try slavery, tell us your opinion, if you are allowed to