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TIGSource ForumsJobsCollaborations2D isometric MMO - looking for C++ (or C#?) programmer
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Danno
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« on: October 27, 2013, 10:12:58 PM »

I want to create a 2D isometric action MMORPG. I'm looking for an experienced C++ programmer to make this possible. The project will basically follow my direction since I'm the man with the plan.
The basic aim of the project is to make an MMO that:
-Is easy to socialize and hang out on.
-Has low system requirements and loads quickly.
-Provides an enjoyable and challenging multiplayer experience.
-Has no grinding at all. The game will not have level ups nor stats - just gameplay and real goals.

The combat system is planned to have no grinding. This means monsters will offer no experience points, there will be no healing potions, you will not level up, and you will not get a quest to kill 300 blobs.
Combat will be interactive and stylish, as well as different from the norm. Players will not simply hit hotkeys and watch the fireworks, as they do in most MMOs. This project will have the player attack with good timing, caution, targetting enemies' weak points, and will require some cooperation and strategy.
You can help with ideas and stuff as long as you keep in mind that the game will have no grinding and that the combat should be challenging, not just sitting back and pushing hotkeys.

The team currently has:
Myself - Project leader/planner/tyrant, sole pixel artist, general artist.
H*cho - Art school student who helps with concept art, suggesting improvements for pixel art, and may draw final promo art.
H*nor - Inexperienced C++ programmer who has been neglecting the project.
Scuba - Storyline planner and writer.
Skoot - Musician.
*rk - Volunteered to host the game server.

What we need is someone who is:
-Experienced with C++.
-Experienced with MySQL.
-Capable of setting up a server and have it work with the game (i.e. make this an actual online multiplayer game).
If you think a different programming language would work better, you can talk to me about it. I have paid webhosting, which includes MySQL databases that can be used for the game.


This is a makeshift team that has never done anything together before. However, I've been doing little projects alone since 2004.

Example of a webcomic I made: http://cloudflash.net/CpCMix244.php
Example of manga style comic I made: http://cloudflash.net/CpElCacto047.php
Example of Flash game I made: http://cloudflash.net/GpDungeonintheClouds.php
Example of Flash animation I made: http://cloudflash.net/MpDannosRush.php
Artwork I won a contest with: http://cloudflash.net/art/SAI/DFO/contest2/DFO_Danno.jpg
Example of recent artwork: http://cloudflash.net/danno/2013-10-14_Orphelina0.jpg

The musician has been playing drums for years, has experience playing piano, and I think bass. He's been composing music for around 2-3 years and is pretty good.


If it looks like we actually have some hope of making the game, I'm thinking we could establish a Kickstarter to raise some funds to keep us motivated and pay for whatever we might need (such as server costs). If this game gets anywhere, maybe we could get it on Steam, too. The game will be completely free to play with no restrictions. We'll add a cash shop to the game when it's stable and stuff. The cash shop will only sell cosmetic items, which will be fully tradeable with other players, and the money will be used for things like server costs first, then profit. Profit would mostly just be split between you and me since we'd be doing the most work, though some will also go to the other contributing team members, as well as a small portion set aside for community events/prizes.


I'm still working on the basic pixel work, but there should be enough that you could start some basic programming as soon as you're ready. I'd also pick up the pace if I had a programmer on board since I'd be more motivated. I have standing/walking/sitting frames done for the male base sprite, as well as a decent variety of floor tiles and some wall tiles to make some maps. Below are some sprite animations.

Not the most fluid animations around in this day and age, but I think it should be good enough for the intentions of this game. Since I'm the only pixel artist, I tried to design them so that I'll be able to finish new equipment at a steady pace. I intend to make the hair move when the characters move, though, which should make them look a little less plain.
I also have a basic GUI and GUI plan completed. Depending on how exactly you want to program it, I can make more modify GUI stuff to be more appropriate.

I check my email daily, so send me an email at [email protected] if you're interested. You can also PM me here or post in this topic and I'll try to remember to check here.
« Last Edit: October 28, 2013, 04:37:08 PM by Danno » Logged
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« Reply #1 on: October 27, 2013, 11:04:12 PM »

How long are you expecting to make the game? / How big will the world be?

"Hi, I want a programmer to make me an MMO" questions happen all the time. Guess how many MMOs people actually make? Maybe one half finished one or so on these forums.
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Selmak75
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« Reply #2 on: October 28, 2013, 04:53:28 AM »

Great pixel art but from a user point of view, i don't find the features or shall i say lack of, the least bit appealing. I find a RPG with no stats/levels is no fun at all, especially for an online game.

Another thing, having a shop only for cosmetic items is nice but pointless. I would rather invest on items they can use like in battle. I'm sorry but in my opinion, again, as a player, i would never purchase stuff just for looks. Sure some would like my daughter but she'd pay for those herself  Cheesy

As for programming, no need to aim too high, while c++ is great and efficient, it is overkill for a 2D game and there are other viable languages with great portability options and you'll attract a wider variety of programmers and it would make game development quicker. I'd rather have a C# programmer with tons of experience than an inexperienced c++ programmer.

I don't know if you actually took the time to make a game design document but if you didn't, you might want to do just that, especially for a mmo.

I hope i'm wrong and it works out!

Best of luck!
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Danno
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« Reply #3 on: October 28, 2013, 04:36:54 PM »

How long are you expecting to make the game? / How big will the world be?

"Hi, I want a programmer to make me an MMO" questions happen all the time. Guess how many MMOs people actually make? Maybe one half finished one or so on these forums.
For years to come. If people are playing it, then I suppose it would go on forever. The world would be expanded as we go along and would be tied in with storyline events. For example, a pathway might crumble open through some mountain and the player might have to investigate the cause of this, as well as gain access to a new area. The programming would likely reach a point where barely anything needs to be programmed, though, since I plan for there to be tools I can use to upload new graphics, edit and create maps, and patch the players' game clients with the udpates. The game will involve puzzle-type dungeons, which I should be able to create on my own assuming the map editor has the appropriate features.

Indeed, I can imagine these "I want to make a game, but I want you to do it all for me" things must be like a plague around here. I've been interested in making a 2D isometric MMO since 2004, though, and I would say my art has developed to acceptable levels for such a project. I know programming is tough and takes time (and years of practise), but the same goes for art.

Great pixel art but from a user point of view, i don't find the features or shall i say lack of, the least bit appealing. I find a RPG with no stats/levels is no fun at all, especially for an online game.

Another thing, having a shop only for cosmetic items is nice but pointless. I would rather invest on items they can use like in battle. I'm sorry but in my opinion, again, as a player, i would never purchase stuff just for looks. Sure some would like my daughter but she'd pay for those herself  Cheesy

As for programming, no need to aim too high, while c++ is great and efficient, it is overkill for a 2D game and there are other viable languages with great portability options and you'll attract a wider variety of programmers and it would make game development quicker. I'd rather have a C# programmer with tons of experience than an inexperienced c++ programmer.

I don't know if you actually took the time to make a game design document but if you didn't, you might want to do just that, especially for a mmo.

I hope i'm wrong and it works out!

Best of luck!
Well, let's put it this way: there are hundreds of MMOs out there that are already focused on grinding stats and leveling up and most of them are not successful at all. Maple Story had the most success with that since it was a new idea at the time, but now it's been done to death.
Times are changing. Just look at how popular Minecraft became without any sort of leveling up. Then there are several games that rode on the success of Minecraft, such as Terraria. You may say to yourself "Well, why would anyone waste time building a house in a game? I can go to the store and buy a pack of Lego to the same effect." True, but that doesn't change the popularity of these games that introduced radical ideas to multiplayer online games. Haven & Hearth is a smaller example of a successful indie game, which features a unique combat system, terraforming, some simple building features, and a huge world for players to explore, claim, and establish their own cities.
It's not all about terraforming, though. While that is a fun idea (that is, in all reality, completely "pointless" and cosmetic), MMOs are changing in other ways. There are newer MMORPGs that try to add more actual gameplay and have less focus on level ups, such as Vindictus, Dungeon & Fighter, and Rusty Hearts. It's still a problem that they have level ups, though, since it forces you to grind to unlock a new area. I've played MMOs and talked to people who play MMOs - they unanimously hate grinding and it often causes them to quit the game. However, many of them think it is a necessary compromise, but only because there are not many options without grinding.
League of Legends is an example of a game that gives players the grind to some extent, but it is not the focus of the game. You level up and then you're back to level 1 the next time you start a game. It keeps the game fresh and prevents stale, repetitive gameplay.

Honestly, why would you want grinding? It is a bad MMO aspect that was added as filler to make the game "infinite". MMOs you may be familiar with were based off of RPGs made in the NES and SNES era, and those concepts are far obsolete by now. Games are increasingly aiming for originality and actual gameplay, and I think it's only natural we should follow suit.

You'd be surprised how many people like to just hang out on MMOs. They buy avatar items (with real money) to make their characters look unique even if it gives them no actual benefit. Before Dungeon Fighter Online closed, people were paying $5 to $7 for one piece of virtual clothing, and lots of people were buying it. I know it sounds stupid, but people do it. Of course, I wouldn't want highway robbery prices like that, but I do want to let players customize their character's appearance greatly with a large variety of items. Some games succeed off of that alone even with zero gameplay, such as Gaia Online, Habbo Hotel, and Endless Online. Killing Floor, a game on Steam, also sells different character skins as downloadable content. Tons of people buy it even though it offers no advantage - they just want to look different.

I don't have a formal game design document, but I do have a lot of the design aspects written (on the computer). I'm currently working on ironing out the details for the classes (warrior/mage/etc.) and exact skills. In this game, you will unlock skills as you play the game, not with "skill points", and you will not level the skills up to make them more effective. I feel leveling skills up is a bad concept since it causes you to only have 2 or 3 effective skills while leaving the rest in the dust. My plan is for each skill to actually have an applicable use, sort of like how in Zelda games, the different items are useful in different situations or against certain enemies.
The skills in this game will be about how you use them, not about using your most powerful skill to instantly kill all enemies within a 20 foot radius. The power of the skill will correspond to the effort it takes to execute it.
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Selmak75
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« Reply #4 on: October 28, 2013, 04:57:45 PM »

Well Danno i have to admit, you definitely thought this through. You are right about the grinding aspect, it's old and ridiculously time consuming. The same goes for quests, you wouldn't want to make them like like WoW or FFXIV, it's procedural and boring.

As for skills, since you don't want to attribute levels on them, one good way to diversify even more is to have your characters choose let's say 3 out of 10 skills in the beginning that are unique to the ones they can unlock further along. Something like in an old nes game i played long ago (The Goonies 2), where you can obtain a pair of shoes to jump higher or farther and reach areas you weren't able to normally.

Again, good luck!  Beer!
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« Reply #5 on: October 28, 2013, 05:03:47 PM »

There's an existing game with levels and stuff, but without the focus on grinding. Do your research! Guild Wars 2.
By the way, I'm an experienced-ish C++ programmer. I can write your client, but I'm afraid that I do not have sufficient experience to write anything with networking capability.
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« Reply #6 on: October 29, 2013, 05:37:27 PM »

one good way to diversify even more is to have your characters choose let's say 3 out of 10 skills in the beginning that are unique to the ones they can unlock further along.
I can see how that could be interesting, but at the same time I think I'd rather avoid it. I can remember 2 or 3 times I started playing an MMO only to find that I permanently "ruined" my character by not choosing the right skills and stats, then I had to start over. I think the players should be forgiven and be allowed to change their character without being punished.
However, I was thinking players could unlock and "equip" stat modifiers (or other sorts of bonuses, such as your high jumping shoes example), which would allow them to shape their character in a way that suits their play style (and make them stand out a little in a crowd). They'd only be able to equip, say, 3 of these stat modifiers at once, and they would also be fully changeable in towns, so a player would not have to regret any choices like that.
I'd like for the quests in this game to actually be rewarding. They'll actually take you on an adventure with challenging foes and puzzles; completing the quest will feel like a reward in itself, just like when you beat a game, and some of them will also reward you with new techniques or other unlockable features. The player will be able to see and feel their reward, unlike typical MMOs where you get some experience points (numbers) that let you level up (numbers) to deal an extra 5 damage in your attacks (more numbers!).

There's an existing game with levels and stuff, but without the focus on grinding. Do your research! Guild Wars 2.
By the way, I'm an experienced-ish C++ programmer. I can write your client, but I'm afraid that I do not have sufficient experience to write anything with networking capability.
Well, there are a good few games like that. Even the Final Fantasy series doesn't really focus on leveling up; it just kinda happens as you play the game, unlike Maple Story, where you have to dedicate a solid 10 hours to grind for one level up, and you need to get like, 5 level ups to be strong enough for the next area. Of course, single player RPGs are a different matter entirely since they come with an interesting cast of characters and a deep storyline.
I have not played Guild Wars 2. The gameplay looks better than your typical "click an enemy to begin auto-attacking them" MMO, though the battles I saw in a gameplay video looked kinda effortless and hotkey-based. It seems like most 3D action MMORPGs are like that.

Anyhow, if you're interested, how would you feel about using this as an excuse to learn about programming networking stuff? Or do you feel like you'd rather not until you learn and experiment more with that kinda thing in your own programming adventures?
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« Reply #7 on: October 29, 2013, 05:56:31 PM »

However, I was thinking players could unlock and "equip" stat modifiers (or other sorts of bonuses, such as your high jumping shoes example), which would allow them to shape their character in a way that suits their play style (and make them stand out a little in a crowd). They'd only be able to equip, say, 3 of these stat modifiers at once, and they would also be fully changeable in towns, so a player would not have to regret any choices like that.
That is a good idea, that would get me interested in playing the game. Smiley


Well, there are a good few games like that. Even the Final Fantasy series doesn't really focus on leveling up; it just kinda happens as you play the game, unlike Maple Story, where you have to dedicate a solid 10 hours to grind for one level up

There's a lot of grinding required in FF 1-6, 9, 10, 11. I have played those quite extensively and you can't just progress without doing it, whether it's for experience or skill exp(FFX). The other versions i'm not sure, i didn't like FF7 much at first, probably because i wasn't used in playing 3D games at the time.

Don't give up, you're well on your way to make your project & game more interesting.

Cheers!  Beer!
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« Reply #8 on: October 29, 2013, 07:49:58 PM »

Quote
Anyhow, if you're interested, how would you feel about using this as an excuse to learn about programming networking stuff? Or do you feel like you'd rather not until you learn and experiment more with that kinda thing in your own programming adventures?
It wouldn't work out. It will fail, and then it will fail again. Some things (like proper software design) is learned by trial and error.
As a manner of fact, I'm currently investing time in learning networking-friendly design so that I could tackle projects such as yours.
What I do is a simple online co-op shooter. Nothing fancy, and not worth a devlog (yet).
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« Reply #9 on: October 30, 2013, 08:06:39 PM »

There's a lot of grinding required in FF 1-6, 9, 10, 11. I have played those quite extensively and you can't just progress without doing it, whether it's for experience or skill exp(FFX). The other versions i'm not sure, i didn't like FF7 much at first, probably because i wasn't used in playing 3D games at the time.

Don't give up, you're well on your way to make your project & game more interesting.

Cheers!  Beer!
True, it was worse in the earlier games. FF1 was pretty much just boring, haha. I thought FF4 took the grinding out pretty good, though. I mostly just killed what was in my way, I don't think I ever had to specifically set aside some time for some hardcore grinding like in Dragon Warrior on the NES. There are also some FF games where the enemy level matches your own, such as FF8, FFX-2, and FF Tactics (aside from storyline battles), so grinding (for more skill variety) is optional. I beat FFX in around 24 hours (spending a decent amount of time on blitzball). I think they found a good balance between making level ups rewarding while not making the player have to spend 30 hours grinding to advance in the game.

Anyway, I'll just keep working on the game design and sprites at a casual pace until I can find a suitable programmer.

It wouldn't work out. It will fail, and then it will fail again. Some things (like proper software design) is learned by trial and error.
As a manner of fact, I'm currently investing time in learning networking-friendly design so that I could tackle projects such as yours.
What I do is a simple online co-op shooter. Nothing fancy, and not worth a devlog (yet).
Fair enough.
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« Reply #10 on: October 30, 2013, 08:07:44 PM »

watchin this project caus its got naked doods
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