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TIGSource ForumsDeveloperDesignMeaningful death in a permadeath game?
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Jungletoe
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« on: November 21, 2013, 05:41:52 AM »

Intro
Hi, I'm developing Dwell, a game where you explore a giant world, build villages, overthrow other villages, and survive the wilderness. It is a top down 2D ORPG (servers can hold upwards of 1000 I believe). The game is permadeath. You have 3 lives, but after the last one you lose everything.

The situation
I've been trying to find a way to add permadeath without the player feeling annoyed or defeated at the end. Ultimately, I would like the player to be disappointed, but motivated enough to continue. I personally like a RotMG approach (a leaderboard with stats, account-wide stats not tied to your character, but nothing affecting gameplay). My artist suggested adding a Path of Exile death system where your character is teleported to a different server (aka league). I don't really think that sort of system could work in a game like this.

The question
How should I add meaningful death in a permadeath game so that the player is still motivated to continue?
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Sir Raptor
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« Reply #1 on: November 21, 2013, 12:11:40 PM »

Permadeath in definition is more or less meaningful death. If you want players to keep on playing your game, you need to make sure the game itself is fun, not concentrate on making the least aggravating death program.

The only real problem with this is hypothetically how you'd tie this into an ORPG. There's not that many multiplayer games with permadeath, and of those I think none of them ask you to openly compete with other players in this way. I'd... almost be tempted to say that this game model is flawed.
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« Reply #2 on: November 21, 2013, 08:31:21 PM »

You could allow the next player to find the loot of a previous attempt.
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« Reply #3 on: November 21, 2013, 08:44:21 PM »

I like the notion of decaying the world for a period of several years depending on the character's level, and then having the new character be created in that world ("Ever since the death of the great hero <old player name>, the ogres have been raiding our villages and enslaving us").
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« Reply #4 on: November 22, 2013, 07:47:54 AM »

I like the notion of decaying the world for a period of several years depending on the character's level, and then having the new character be created in that world ("Ever since the death of the great hero <old player name>, the ogres have been raiding our villages and enslaving us").
This is a really interesting idea, I like it. But sadly it would take a lot more effort to make and is probably not worth it because you would have to duplicate the amount of assets in the game. Interesting idea nonetheless.

The question
How should I add meaningful death in a permadeath game so that the player is still motivated to continue?
I think you could look into Realm of the Mad God. It has permadeath and I've played it a couple of times, it's a lot of fun. You may want to play it a bit (if you haven't already) and see what they do to keep the player engaged even tho they lost everything when dying.
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mrBlack
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« Reply #5 on: November 22, 2013, 09:08:43 AM »

You could allow the next player to find the loot of a previous attempt.

Basically, this.  It would probably be easiest.

Aside from that, you could have a Rogue Legacy type of thing where the child of the slain character inherits traits from their father/mother.
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« Reply #6 on: November 22, 2013, 10:55:59 AM »

You could allow the next player to find the loot of a previous attempt.
Basically, this.  It would probably be easiest.
Aside from that, you could have a Rogue Legacy type of thing where the child of the slain character inherits traits from their father/mother.

A couple of ideas from a game I was working on that I might not end up using, but are similar to these:
1) Child character receives an heirloom--one of the items that the parent character used, but heirlooms have a small stat-increase or whatever.
2) In a similar vein to Rogue Legacy, child inherits stats based on what the parent's class was (e.g., parent was a mage, so child was around books all the time and gets +1 intelligence).

:: shrug ::
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« Reply #7 on: November 22, 2013, 02:23:03 PM »

I've mulled about this concept for a while in a game setting as well.  All my thoughts have flaws to them, but the "next-of-kin" concept always sounded best for me.  Perhaps having a family mausoleum which securely holds the remains and possessions of the fallen heroes would be a believable game mechanic.  The new hero can go to the graveyard and gear up with whatever was on the fallen heroes (plural) of his (her) family that adventured before them.  With a gear-based progression model, this would allow for most of the player's progress on the previous character to not be in vain.
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« Reply #8 on: November 29, 2013, 04:44:52 AM »

Intro
Hi, I'm developing Dwell, a game where you explore a giant world, build villages, overthrow other villages, and survive the wilderness. It is a top down 2D ORPG (servers can hold upwards of 1000 I believe). The game is permadeath. You have 3 lives, but after the last one you lose everything.

The situation
I've been trying to find a way to add permadeath without the player feeling annoyed or defeated at the end. Ultimately, I would like the player to be disappointed, but motivated enough to continue. I personally like a RotMG approach (a leaderboard with stats, account-wide stats not tied to your character, but nothing affecting gameplay). My artist suggested adding a Path of Exile death system where your character is teleported to a different server (aka league). I don't really think that sort of system could work in a game like this.

The question
How should I add meaningful death in a permadeath game so that the player is still motivated to continue?

I find the question is a tad worrying. It almost seems like you're pursuing the idea of adding permadeath for the sake of it, rather than considering what is that permadeath would bring into the game.

Permadeath is not a mechanic you can expect to be able to pour into any design, ending up with a better result. Permadeath needs to support the rest of the experience, otherwise it might as well end up ruining the experience as a whole.

As an example of that, take the genre which most prominently uses permadeath to its advantage: Roguelikes.

In (most) roguelikes, the core of the game is a combination of the following: tactical combat (most often than not turn based, rather than real time), decision making, resource management and exploration; Also multiple, possibly very elaborate systems are thrown in for good measure, in order to make the game space significantly larger and allowing for emergent gameplay.

Permadeath in RLs is actually supporting (and enhancing) all the other mechanics. It makes the design (and most importantly the gameplay experience) better as a whole.

The same goes with games like Spelunky, RotMG, The Binding of Isaac, Rogue Legacy, etc. etc. (games often referred as Roguelike-likes, and for good reason).

For instance, permadeath in all of those games doesn't really feel like an overly severe punishment for failure mainly because, even though you're required to start again from the very beginning) the game is throwing at you a wholly different experience every time you start a new game. As long as you're learning something new, or you're making some progress in therms of player's skill, dying doesn't feel like an utterly meaningless defeat.

This is very important. And in fact permadeath in all of those games is ultimately making the learnining process all the more important. Coincidentally, the fact most of threats the player is going to face are procedurally generated also means the player can't simply "beat" the game by memorizing map layouts, enemy locations and solutions to puzzles.

So, the real question I feel you should ask yourself would be: "Would permadeath add to Dwell's experience as a whole?".

You mentioned, in Dwell, the player explores a big world.

If the player is to permanently die, would he have to re-experience the exact same content from the very beginning? This could easily lead to player frustration (notice how most action/adventure games which feature linear/static content opt for a save/checkpoint system instead).

Is the player expected to learn a whole set of skills (meaning player's skills, like in knowledge about the game's system, or maybe execution skill)? If that's not the case, and starting over is merely a matter of "grinding your way" through already experienced content in order to being able to face whatever killed you the last time and take another attempt at beating the same challenge... you get my drift.

So yeah, I felt like it was important pointing out the very basics about why pemadeath could be a good idea for your game or not. This is only the tip of the iceberg, and you can certainly find a whole lot of useful (and more in depth) info about he subject by using google.

Assuming permadeath is a good option for Dwell, it's important you implement a system of sorts which is keeping progress acquired via previous games from being lost.

Most traditional RLs (think Rogue, Nethack, Angband, etc.) can get away without this mainly because the player is usually acquiring new knowledge with each following game. So all the progress is out-of game player's knowledge, rather than anything like an in-game reward.

Spelunky goes a similar route. Beating the game is hard, especially if you're a new player, but you're acquiring new knowledge and your platforming/whip-swinging skills are getting better (even if marginally) with each game. Furthermore, the game is full of secrets (maybe the first time you beat the game you don't know what the purpose of the Udjet Eye is. And possibly even when you've beaten the game multiple times you've never been to the Worm level, or Hell).

The Binding of Isaac uses an interesting approach. As you play more and more, new items are unlocked and can from a certain point onwards randomly spawn in the game's dungeons. You're unlocking some new creazy item with basically every playthrough, so the player feels rewarded even though he technically lost. Hundreds of unlockables are in the game, so this system also heavily taps into collector-type players' psicology.

In Rogue Legacy, the gold you acquire in a game can be spent to upgrade the shop (these are permanent upgrades) and buy upgrades for your next character (these you lose upon dieing), so you can effectively re-invest resources gained over the course of a given game. A very important caveat of this is, you can't store earned gold in a bank: any amount of gold you don't spend is lost as soon as you start a new adventure. The important consequence of this is you can't simply hoard gold in order to build yourself an overpowered character.

RotMG is kind of a unique beast. The game doesn't feature an ultimate goal. Unlocking classes and completing class quests is a short term incentive, diminishing the severity of death. But even then, there's a slight problem with having to pot your character up again every time you die (unless you manage to hoard lots of potions and storing those in your vault/mules). Furthermore, the game kind of gets repetitive soon enough, despite the use of randomly generated dungeons. You always face the same combination of enemies in every dungeon, and the enemies/bosses always use the same patterns.

It's complicated. Leaderboards are only relatively effective in giving RotMG players an incentive to play the game again after a death, if you ask me. My experience with the game is, you generally want to play more just in spite of the fact that the game is fun and very addictive way (and I don't necessarily mean it negatively way). Other than that, the main goal for a long term player is hoarding more and more riches, growing a powerful pet or becoming a celebrity among the game's playerbase (all of these usually end up playing into each other). But I can assure you a huge percentage of new players end up leaving the game out of frustration in little time (both the game's difficulty and the community can be very harsh to newer players).

As a rule of thumb, leaderboards or other ways for the player to track his progress over the course of several playthrough is a nice feature. Those let the player withness for himself if he's getting any better at the game by exposing some kind of metrics.

If many different classes are in Dwell, you might require the player to hit a given mileston for him to unlock all of them. This gives a short term incentive with trying new classes out and, as long as reaching said milestones is easy enough, makes the player feel rewarded despite losing.

If exploration is a huge part of Dwell, you might add an entry in an hypothetical player's log/diary upon reaching specific landmarks. This would be persistent over many playthroughs, so the player might be willing to explore a different part of the world after creating a new character.

You mentioned players in Dwell build villages. Maybe players retain ownership upon whatever they built?

Ultimately, the "right" way to make death less severe of an outcome is going to be entirely dependent on how exactly Dwell works. I can only point you out in a general direction, but only you can work out the finer details.

Hopefully this long-assed post was helpful.
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randomnine
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« Reply #9 on: December 01, 2013, 06:11:16 PM »

The question
How should I add meaningful death in a permadeath game so that the player is still motivated to continue?

I approach this by treating death as the payoff for the work up to that point - linking rewards and recognition to death itself, so that player death becomes the realisation of everything achieved in life & feeds forward into other systems. It does suck for players so IMO it's worth reassuring them it wasn't wasted time by recording data and giving them something. eg:

- Leaderboards.
- Achievements.
- Class unlocks.
- Some permanent record of that character's story (or ongoing legacy).

Simply recording as much as possible about that character and honouring them can help prevent it feeling like all the time invested in them just disappeared, I think.

(Given that it's online: can you will property to other players, or otherwise make the player's death benefit their friends and allies? Can players build cemeteries in their villages?)

And then there's just giving them something to move onto. If the early game is exciting and varied and responds well to many different early builds/strategies, if players have to specialise so there's no possible way to see everything in a single life, if the game's biased towards skill enough that new characters can contribute/compete, then players may already be thinking about what they can do differently next time and all you'll need to do is nudge them into getting started.

Oh, one more thing. I don't think permadeath should ever be done without respect for "drama". When you die, I believe you should be able to see it coming and it should happen as this gathering crescendo of "oh shit!" moments where you're obviously getting closer to death and the stakes are going up; you should never ever be able to die suddenly from full health etc. or in a completely unexpected or unavoidable way. If death feels fair and narratively satisfying I think that's half the battle.

A single unfair/sudden death, even if it's just because the player didn't realise something or forgot it, might make them walk away from the game forever.

Three lives sounds like a great move in this direction, but I'd still worry that people who have been on one life for a while might start to feel complacent, and then permanent death might come as a nasty surprise to them. And I hope you're super clear to people what might happen once they reach their last life. :D
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Jungletoe
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« Reply #10 on: December 02, 2013, 05:51:48 AM »

@Bandreus
Thanks for the long post. I'll talk to my team and add a few of your suggestions to the game. On a side note, I should mention that the whole world in Dwell will be over 20,000x20,000 tiles and will be procedurally generated, so there is never a lack of new content to explore.

@randomnine
I completely agree about the lives thing. I think we'll remove them.

@Everyone Else
Thanks for the suggestions/ideas!


Also, our game has stats. How should we incorporate stats into the whole permadeath equation?
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Vanin
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« Reply #11 on: December 04, 2013, 03:48:15 PM »

It'd be cool to build the playstats into the gameplay- legendary playthroughs can create legendary items, or the top 10 people on the leaderboards take on the name of gods that randomly generated temples are devoted to.

Additionally- I agree that permadeath is meaningful. I think you're asking a different question- How do you make it sticky when sometimes you lose everything? So in that case it could be (for one idea) venturing back out to see how you've impacted the world. Could be more original of an idea to explore than heirlooms.

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« Reply #12 on: December 28, 2013, 07:57:40 PM »

Don't put all your eggs into one character basket.

I like the idea of a genetic or family line with permadeath.  Give your players families and children who will take over when the parents pass.  Each generation can pass on legacies.  Just because one character dies doesn't mean he hasn't been providing for his family the whole time.  Life goes on!

If each new generation of offspring can have the potential of random bonus attributes and skills, cycling through new chars won't hurt so bad. 
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« Reply #13 on: January 21, 2014, 06:21:04 PM »

Also, our game has stats. How should we incorporate stats into the whole permadeath equation?

Maybe reset stats for each new character, but based on the stats of all previous characters give a bonus to how quickly new stats increase? This would make it so that each time you play through leveling a stat up, you have to spend less and less time on it.
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erebusman
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« Reply #14 on: January 23, 2014, 02:35:12 PM »

There's only one game I ever found perma death to be even reasonably meaningful enough to keep playing and that was Realm of the Mad God; because that was the only way to unlock new classes.

So you deliberately had to die to in 2 or more classes to unlock certain other ones.

Pretty much every other perma death game I either wont buy or stop playing after I die. Its just simply much to severe of a punishment to be fun in most games.

I know some people get a kick out of punishment gaming but I think there are more than don't?
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« Reply #15 on: January 24, 2014, 12:05:18 AM »

I know some people get a kick out of punishment gaming but I think there are more than don't?

I honestly don't know about actual figures, but if I had to judge on how popular the roguelike-likes market has become (spelunky, dungeons of dredmore, binding of isaac, rogue legacy, nuclear throne, etc. etc. etc.) I would say the number of people who "get a kick out of punishment gaming" is large enough.
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« Reply #16 on: January 24, 2014, 01:35:18 AM »

Also, our game has stats. How should we incorporate stats into the whole permadeath equation?

Maybe reset stats for each new character, but based on the stats of all previous characters give a bonus to how quickly new stats increase? This would make it so that each time you play through leveling a stat up, you have to spend less and less time on it.
or you could make it so that you, y'know, don't have to waste time grinding stats in the first place
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« Reply #17 on: January 24, 2014, 09:31:11 AM »

or you could make it so that you, y'know, don't have to waste time grinding stats in the first place

Games can implement stats in way that's not grindy but where it still would be nice to level up faster after you've already gone through the process once.
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erebusman
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« Reply #18 on: January 24, 2014, 11:30:42 AM »

I honestly don't know about actual figures, but if I had to judge on how popular the roguelike-likes market has become (spelunky, dungeons of dredmore, binding of isaac, rogue legacy, nuclear throne, etc. etc. etc.) I would say the number of people who "get a kick out of punishment gaming" is large enough.

Plenty of Rogue-like's don't feature perma death.  Or some that do you have it as an optional choice. 

Diablo is a probably the most popular rogue-like ever and you don't have to have perma death unless you choose it.

It's just like PVP ; lots of vocal people scream for it but when you see MMO's settle down after launch there are a large ratio of PVE servers to the PVP servers.

Is the audience for perma-death punishment gaming 'large enough' ?  I guess it probably is??   What do you feel is large enough for you??

If your game had the -option- to have it or not would your audience be larger?  No doubt about it : yes.

Am I okay with a larger audience?  Heck yeah.
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« Reply #19 on: January 24, 2014, 03:16:12 PM »

You can also design the game where stat progression exists outside of the life of your character. Tokyo Jungle, for example, portrays your characters as descendants of previous playthroughs and thus you inherit a portion of stats of previous runs. Spelunky doesn't feature stats at all, but does allow you to build shortcuts that persist between playthroughs.

Rather than looking at permadeath as added punishment look at it as an opportunity to mix up the progression. When your stats are permanent you have to start the game over from the beginning in order to experiment with different builds, or to try a different technique for leveling. There's not much incentive to learn the early parts of the game to do them more efficiently, since you're liable to only play them a few times. A permadeath title gives the player a reason to repeat early parts of the game repeatedly, and try to perfect their strategies. If you offer the player a lot of content in the early game so they can experiment to find better ways to progress, especially ways where they can use advanced techniques to do things that seemed impossible on their first try, you've created an experience that simply wouldn't exist in a traditional title.

That's the real allure of roguelikes - that you're not learning levels but mastering mechanics.
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