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[William Chyr]

I felt I should comment since our games have such similar names, and I always see your thread around, and...wow. The beautiful art. As someone who likes pen and ink drawings it's really nice. I love the hard black line edges...

Ha. Both are gardens. Definitely very different vibes though. Thanks for the kind words!

[William Chyr]

DevLog Update #341 - 5/21/2017

Development update video #6 is now up! It summarizes the last 10 months or so of development down to 5 minutes.





These are some of the topics covered:

- Save system
- Menu
- New water art style
- Tree growing animation
- New portal system
- World shrinking mechanic

The last one of these videos I did was back in June 2016, then development got really busy and I stopped. Now that the architecture of the game is more or less set, I'd like to produce these on a biweekly basis.

[jctwood]

The recursive map idea is lovely and fits so well within the world. The way the tree grew from the fruit when the water is added makes so much sense, it made me smile hard when that happened. Is there any indicator of a portal or is it always going to be a seamless part of the environment? Near the map cube with the infinitely recursive portal I was completely lost as to where the portal started and stopped.

[William Chyr]

Is there any indicator of a portal or is it always going to be a seamless part of the environment? Near the map cube with the infinitely recursive portal I was completely lost as to where the portal started and stopped.

Some of the portals are very clear, usually the ones that take you to another level. I refer to these as interlevel portals. The portals within a level tend to be more seamless (intralevel portals). It depends more on the specific environment I want to create.

[jctwood]

That makes a lot of sense! Very excited to see how puzzles interact with the portals.

[quantumpotato]

Is there any indicator of a portal or is it always going to be a seamless part of the environment? Near the map cube with the infinitely recursive portal I was completely lost as to where the portal started and stopped.

Some of the portals are very clear, usually the ones that take you to another level. I refer to these as interlevel portals. The portals within a level tend to be more seamless (intralevel portals). It depends more on the specific environment I want to create.

I've pushed manifold.garden out of my head for a while because I'm so excited to play it. Portals + recursive maps just sounds amazing..

[io3 creations]

https://forums.tigsource.com/index.php?action=post;topic=37314.1160;num_replies=1164

@1:10  The cubes are fruits that grow on trees.

I knew that Cube Watermelons had to come from somewhere!

@1:25  Eventually, you make your way outside.

Is the first level, right?

I'm just wondering because showing how the world wraps around itself might have been better with a smaller "world grid" size.  I mean, when you fell off or dropped the object off the legde, it took a while to return to your original position (also after passing some other "island").  If I didn't know that the world wraps around itself, I probably wouldn't have realized that ... for quite some time.  Or is there something that gives a clue/hint about the world wrapping?


The curved water lines seems a bit out of place while everything else is made up of straight lines.  Much like having vector graphics in a pixel game. 
I know I mentioned having "Minecraft like" water but didn't have time to do it.  At time, I was also thinking of creating a full 3d mockup.  In hindsight, I could've just done something like with my *trusty* Flash CS4.   Smaller grid size for the patterns would be more fitting to the game, but this is what I had time for.

"big pixel" version




Gradient colors:




If you wanted splashes, then those could be cubes (perhaps different sizes) and similar white/blue color pattern applied to them.

[Zorg]

I have to disagree. In my eyes, the new water looks great and fits the game perfectly. Big pixels would look out of place, imho. The only point i could criticize about the water are the sharp corners, created by a cube which blocks the water instead of redirecting it. I would prefer if those would be slightly rounded, too.

[Ninety]

I feel weird about people conflating blocky art styles with pixels. I see where you're coming from with the straight lines, but remember a huge part of MG's art style is colour blending which is distinctly not blocky. It's perhaps a bit cartoony but I don't think pixels would fix that at all, I actually like the organic element the water brings.

[io3 creations]

Technically, the bottom two image with gradient colors aren't pixels.  But in terms of shape, instead of squares and rectangles, triangles, hexels and other shapes seen in the game could also be used.

There are two things at play:
1) Subjective experience.  Let's take combining two food items.  There'll be those who like it and those who don't.   Whether few/some/many others will find the "curvy water" also not fitting will remain to be seen.
2) I have been following the devlog for a while but haven't seen any shapes that didn't adhere to the straight line principle.  While it makes sense that buildings do, if "natural" trees with curves and fruits are represented in the same way then I wonder why the water doesn't follow that.  Also being a "flat" water reminds me more of origami (i.e. straight lines).   

Of course, a game world can have it's own rules and work well within those as long as there's an explanation.  However, it'd be nice but doesn't have to be explained explicitly in game but it might come up in interviews.
So:
-Why does the water visual use curves?  Is it because it's a different phase i.e. liquid?
-Are there other things that aren't drawn straight lines? 

[Ninety]

What about something smoother, like this? (super rough mockup)



Only if it was animated well, obviously.

I don't mind the use of straight lines but I think individual blocks of white that contrast heavily with the water wouldn't mesh well at all with the broader visual style.

[William Chyr]

@1:25  Eventually, you make your way outside.

Is the first level, right?

I'm just wondering because showing how the world wraps around itself might have been better with a smaller "world grid" size.  I mean, when you fell off or dropped the object off the legde, it took a while to return to your original position (also after passing some other "island").  If I didn't know that the world wraps around itself, I probably wouldn't have realized that ... for quite some time.  Or is there something that gives a clue/hint about the world wrapping?

You do make your way outside in the first level. I had thought about introducing world wrapping via a smaller grid world. However, I really like the "wow" factor when players first go outside. One of my favorite moments in NaissanceE is during the "Going Down" chapter, when you step out from a tunnel and are faced with this immense space for the first time. It took my breath away. I'd like to evoke this same feeling of awe when the player first goes outside.

You don't need to know that the world wraps around itself during the first level (although it does help). I've seen players go through the opening area without once wrapping around, and that's fine. Eventually you will discover it. There are some things that I've put a lot of effort into tutorializing for the player through the level design, and there are some things I'd like for players to discover on their own pace.

@1:25  Eventually, you make your way outside.

Is the first level, right?

I'm just wondering because showing how the world wraps around itself might have been better with a smaller "world grid" size.  I mean, when you fell off or dropped the object off the legde, it took a while to return to your original position (also after passing some other "island").  If I didn't know that the world wraps around itself, I probably wouldn't have realized that ... for quite some time.  Or is there something that gives a clue/hint about the world wrapping?


The curved water lines seems a bit out of place while everything else is made up of straight lines.  Much like having vector graphics in a pixel game. 
I know I mentioned having "Minecraft like" water but didn't have time to do it.  At time, I was also thinking of creating a full 3d mockup.  In hindsight, I could've just done something like with my *trusty* Flash CS4.   Smaller grid size for the patterns would be more fitting to the game, but this is what I had time for.

"big pixel" version




Gradient colors:




If you wanted splashes, then those could be cubes (perhaps different sizes) and similar white/blue color pattern applied to them.

The curved lines on the water are intentional. There are several reasons for having them curved as opposed to straight.

As you've mentioned, everything aside from water follows a very rigid style with straight lines. The reason for this is because of the gravity changing mechanic. You can change gravity onto any surface, and since there are only 6 gravities you can change to, every surface in the game has to be oriented along one of the 6 gravity directions. This means I cannot have any surfaces on an angle. It was very important to me in designing the game that every surface be walkable, so that players have a lot of freedom in navigation. If I had surfaces that weren't walkable, then pretty soon, I would be using them to force players to take certain pathways. This leads to a very rigid, austere, and somewhat static feel to the environment. I wanted the water to offer contrast. The water should feel organic and free-flowing. It represents life (you're using water to grow trees in the game, after all). I wanted the style of the water to stand out from the environment. Of course, it still has a gameplay element so the mechanics dictate how far I can stray with the art style. For example, the water still only bends at 90 degree angles, and also doesn't have any thickness (because I need the player to be able to walk over it).

In any case, huge thanks to everyone for the suggestions and feedback! Really appreciate it. It's always great to be able to discuss design decisions like this in detail.

[William Chyr]

Unfolding The Garden - Weekly Design Show



Starting on Saturday, June 3rd, I'm going to be doing a weekly twitch show called "Unfolding the Garden" where I play through old builds of Manifold Garden and discuss how the design evolved.

The show will be every Saturday at 2pm EDT / 1pm CDT / 11 am PDT / 18:00 UTC. Each episode will be about 90 minutes.

I'll be going through the builds in chronological order, and talk about what I was thinking at the time. If you're interested in the design process of Manifold Garden, be sure to check this out!

https://www.twitch.tv/williamchyr

[Tomas (Yawarjelo)]

Hey William! Looks really good! I try to not read or watch too much because I don't want to spoil it. I want to play the final game I think. Although I would love to help with the beta testing!

I have a question that probably you already answered here somewhere. (Sorry in advance for repeating it if its the case) Does the game has some kind of music or sound system that reflects the recursiveness of the world?  I don't know why but while I was looking at your Video Blog the question just popped into my head.

[William Chyr]

I have a question that probably you already answered here somewhere. (Sorry in advance for repeating it if its the case) Does the game has some kind of music or sound system that reflects the recursiveness of the world?  I don't know why but while I was looking at your Video Blog the question just popped into my head.

I haven't gotten around to doing much of the audio yet, but yes, this is something that I would like to have in the game!

[io3 creations]

You do make your way outside in the first level. I had thought about introducing world wrapping via a smaller grid world. However, I really like the "wow" factor when players first go outside. One of my favorite moments in NaissanceE is during the "Going Down" chapter, when you step out from a tunnel and are faced with this immense space for the first time. It took my breath away. I'd like to evoke this same feeling of awe when the player first goes outside.

That's a good point.  I also remember games with similar "wow" factor when entering a larger space.

Though I wonder, won't the trailer spoil aspect as it'll be showing a variety of gameplay including some/many with vast expanse? 

[Tomas (Yawarjelo)]

I have a question that probably you already answered here somewhere. (Sorry in advance for repeating it if its the case) Does the game has some kind of music or sound system that reflects the recursiveness of the world?  I don't know why but while I was looking at your Video Blog the question just popped into my head.

I haven't gotten around to doing much of the audio yet, but yes, this is something that I would like to have in the game!

Do you have any ideas you can share? I'm an ignorant regarding recursion in music but from what I quickly googled algorithms can be interesting in the theory but musically not that attractive (for me at least). Maybe the composer/sd can do something conceptually recursive but not quite?

[William Chyr]

Though I wonder, won't the trailer spoil aspect as it'll be showing a variety of gameplay including some/many with vast expanse?  

Definitely, but that's sort of just an unfortunate part of game marketing - the trailer needs to convince someone to play the game, so it needs to show the best parts. But hopefully once enough people play the game, it can spread by word of mouth and convince others to play without watching the trailer.

Do you have any ideas you can share? I'm an ignorant regarding recursion in music but from what I quickly googled algorithms can be interesting in the theory but musically not that attractive (for me at least). Maybe the composer/sd can do something conceptually recursive but not quite?

Not at the moment. I haven't looked into audio design very much. I plan on doing it once the design and tech is locked down.

[Tomas (Yawarjelo)]

Found this video that has real recursive music (not like the track that I did that is not mathematically correct): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mq0z-sxjNlo&feature=youtu.be
But it's hard for me to imagine nice music composed this way...!

[io3 creations]

One more question:  I know you mentioned in your reddit post that you'll write in-depth about the recursive portal effect with stencil but I'm wondering about one thing.  Are you using materials with the corresponding stencir "Ref" (reference) numbers?  Using RenderTexture is working fine and since my game isn't that processing intensive I might use that as it doesn't require to have extra material setup.

I've seen seen a Unity thread where someone posted a split screen done with stencil shader but didn't give detailed explanation as to how.  Only mentioned that you can write to the stencil buffer and basically any shape can be used.  I'll look into that once I have a better grasp of shaders.