Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length

 
Advanced search

1411273 Posts in 69323 Topics- by 58380 Members - Latest Member: bob1029

March 28, 2024, 12:58:39 AM

Need hosting? Check out Digital Ocean
(more details in this thread)
TIGSource ForumsCommunityDevLogsManifold Garden
Pages: 1 ... 39 40 [41] 42 43 ... 63
Print
Author Topic: Manifold Garden  (Read 389943 times)
Ninety
Level 1
*


turnip boy


View Profile
« Reply #800 on: August 01, 2015, 07:38:49 PM »

Willy, even when your game breaks it looks incredible. I just found my new wallpaper.
Logged

William Chyr
Level 8
***



View Profile WWW
« Reply #801 on: August 01, 2015, 08:31:37 PM »

Willy, even when your game breaks it looks incredible. I just found my new wallpaper.

Glad to hear that Smiley

I'm going to put up real wallpapers soon! With the right aspect ratio and everything!
Logged

Connor
Level 8
***


Smooth talker, musician. Loves all things 70s.


View Profile WWW
« Reply #802 on: August 01, 2015, 09:01:52 PM »

whenever i come back to this it just ends up looking more and more gorgeous.

getting super hyped for the full release.
Logged

Firearrow games
www.firearrowgames.net

blitzkampfer:
https://forums.tigsource.com/index.php?topic=52009.msg1280646#msg1280646

too bad eggybooms ents are actually men in paper mache suits and they NEED to be agile
William Chyr
Level 8
***



View Profile WWW
« Reply #803 on: August 02, 2015, 11:47:08 AM »

whenever i come back to this it just ends up looking more and more gorgeous.

getting super hyped for the full release.

Super glad to hear that! And there is going to be so much more stuff coming soon.

We've only scratched the surface!
Logged

William Chyr
Level 8
***



View Profile WWW
« Reply #804 on: August 02, 2015, 01:50:12 PM »

Devlog Update #242 - 08/02/2015

Interlockable Design

The last few days have been spent trying to work out the design of the interlockables.

It was decided early on to go with the gradient over the stripe patterns. I myself much preferred gradient, and a quick poll on twitter showed that most people agreed:



I posted a few more iterations on twitter to figure out what was essential to the design, and got a lot of really good feedback. I thought I'd post everything here to show you the process of arriving at the design, and also to talk about the constraints that are involved.

How do the interlockables behave?

The interlockables are giant polynominos that cannot be picked up, but which respond to the player's gravity.

Interlockables are always bi-directional, and respond to gravity on either ends of an axis. So they are red-blue, yellow-green, or purple-orange.

The Interlockables cannot be picked up.

The Interlockables sometimes have lines on them, which can connect to other lines and carry power (from a switch) to an object that can be powered on (like a door).

An interlockable can have more than one line. The lines don't necessarily have to follow the entire shape of the interlockable ie the line can stop halfway up the side of the interlockable.

Version 1.0

This is what the interlockable originally looked like



As you can see, there are lots of problems with this.

The biggest complaint I got from playtesters was that you couldn't tell which direction an interlockable was going to fall in when it was inactive.

Usually, it was along the axis of the longest piece, but that wasn't always the case.

Version 2.0



First major revision of the interlockable. Basically using the double gravity cube texture and making it really big.

the problem is that it's super ugly, and also the stripes don't help communicate direction. As in, only the the very top and very bottom stripe show direction. The middle stripes don't really do much.

Plus, it's hard to see the line on the interlockable.

Version 2.1



Added white center stripe so that the line shows up better. Using gradient to signal direction.

Not a big fan of the diamond in the corners and after asking on twitter, a lot of people agreed.

Plus, with diamonds, it's a bit hard to tell direction. You could be looking at the diamond from an angle, and it isn't always clear which direction is the longer one.

eddriofer suggested this:



The problem here is that the center stripe doesn't always align with the shape of the interlockable. So sometimes the center stripe would have to be orthogonal to the shapes of the diamonds then.

Version 2.2



Moving the diamonds to the gradient. Still has same problem of diamonds not being super clear with indicating direction.

Also, as main_gi pointed out, it looks too much like a playing card:



Version 2.3

Gavin McCarthy suggested using chevrons, which I thought was a good idea.



A rough draft:



Cleaned up the chevrons, but realized I didn't know what to do w/ the chevrons on the bottom of the LL



Juliano had this suggestion:



However, it made me realize that having chevrons right next to each other made it hard to tell direction, because where they were touching could be interpreted as where the chevron was pointing.



Mark's suggestion made this pretty clear.

Version 2.4



Here I didn't like the way the center stripe was blocking the bottom chevrons.

Alan suggested this:



This actually looks really good. However, the chevrons here are part of the center stripe, and the center stripe isn't always present or pointing in direction of interlockable gravity, so this doesn't work functionally.

Version 2.5

This is what I'm going to go with for now. It's the most consistent so far. There is some spacing issues that can be tweaked (alignment, etc), but I think the general idea is there.





One detail that Daniel pointed out is that the chevrons should be compressed a bit vertically so that spacing between the top and bottom is equal to spacing on sides.



Anyway, that's where the interlockable designs are at now.

There'll definitely be more art passes eventually. Right now, it's enough to start playtesting and see if it's getting the right information across to players.
Logged

ProgramGamer
Administrator
Level 10
******


aka Mireille


View Profile
« Reply #805 on: August 03, 2015, 05:05:36 AM »

I don't know, why not something like this:

The trick would be to make the direction markers clearly visible weather or not the middle line is there, right? Are there reasons why this wouldn't work?
« Last Edit: August 03, 2015, 06:40:40 AM by ProgramGamer » Logged

Zorg
Level 9
****



View Profile
« Reply #806 on: August 03, 2015, 06:34:56 AM »

This looks really complicated to me. If these interlockables were always this big, you would only need smaller arrows, don't you? Smiley

Logged
William Chyr
Level 8
***



View Profile WWW
« Reply #807 on: August 03, 2015, 11:33:03 PM »

I don't know, why not something like this:

The trick would be to make the direction markers clearly visible weather or not the middle line is there, right? Are there reasons why this wouldn't work?

This could work, but the issue is that there isn't always a middle section long enough for the stripe lie in the "new no stripe" version. It also means that if the top part of the L is covered, you can't see the arrows.

This looks really complicated to me. If these interlockables were always this big, you would only need smaller arrows, don't you? Smiley



Actually you are right. I think I'm going to go with the smaller arrows like you've suggested instead of the 4 chevrons.
Logged

jctwood
Level 10
*****



View Profile WWW
« Reply #808 on: August 04, 2015, 12:47:18 AM »

So glad the design has been simplified. I think the overly complicated patterns would break the aesthetic of Relativity. Look forward to a final design and the mind bending puzzles that the interlockables will allow for.
Logged

William Chyr
Level 8
***



View Profile WWW
« Reply #809 on: August 04, 2015, 11:33:27 PM »

So glad the design has been simplified. I think the overly complicated patterns would break the aesthetic of Relativity. Look forward to a final design and the mind bending puzzles that the interlockables will allow for.

I find that every design goes through several cycles of getting super complicated to fit in all the constraints, and then simplifying down to just the essentials and no more.

I don't think we're quite there yet, but it's better than before.

I imagine a few more cycles and we'll be good.
Logged

jctwood
Level 10
*****



View Profile WWW
« Reply #810 on: August 05, 2015, 04:35:07 AM »

I have to say I am a little confused as to why chevrons are necessary when surely the gradient direction and colour conveys the direction?
Logged

ProgramGamer
Administrator
Level 10
******


aka Mireille


View Profile
« Reply #811 on: August 05, 2015, 05:08:17 AM »

Because the color can be turned off in game. Also, color blindness.
Logged

jctwood
Level 10
*****



View Profile WWW
« Reply #812 on: August 05, 2015, 05:54:14 AM »

Very true, thank you for pointing that out!
Logged

Connor
Level 8
***


Smooth talker, musician. Loves all things 70s.


View Profile WWW
« Reply #813 on: August 05, 2015, 11:54:26 AM »

you should totally make a tetris minigame entirely using interlockables.
Logged

Firearrow games
www.firearrowgames.net

blitzkampfer:
https://forums.tigsource.com/index.php?topic=52009.msg1280646#msg1280646

too bad eggybooms ents are actually men in paper mache suits and they NEED to be agile
William Chyr
Level 8
***



View Profile WWW
« Reply #814 on: August 05, 2015, 04:09:45 PM »

I have to say I am a little confused as to why chevrons are necessary when surely the gradient direction and colour conveys the direction?

Because the color can be turned off in game. Also, color blindness.

Yep! ProgramGamer is right. One thing I'm doing with all the design elements in the game is to not rely on color alone for conveying information.

To be clear, color can't be turned off in game since you need at least one floor colored, or at least darker, to see which way is down, but colorblindness does means that it's not using differences in color to signal.


you should totally make a tetris minigame entirely using interlockables.

I got my hands full with the main game as it is!

Logged

Connor
Level 8
***


Smooth talker, musician. Loves all things 70s.


View Profile WWW
« Reply #815 on: August 05, 2015, 10:01:45 PM »

true, true lol
Logged

Firearrow games
www.firearrowgames.net

blitzkampfer:
https://forums.tigsource.com/index.php?topic=52009.msg1280646#msg1280646

too bad eggybooms ents are actually men in paper mache suits and they NEED to be agile
William Chyr
Level 8
***



View Profile WWW
« Reply #816 on: August 19, 2015, 12:59:37 PM »

Devlog Update #243 - 08/19/2015

Edge Detection Shader Deep Dive! Part 1 - Even or Thinner Edges?

It has been a while since the last update. I think this may actually be the longest gap between updates on this devlog in quite some time....

I spent the last week and a half deep diving into shaders, writing multiple edge detection algorithms, connecting them to MIDI controllers for better tweaking, so my mind was down that rabbit hole. I feel like I've finally emerged and am seeing sunglight for the first time in a while.

Anyway, I'm going to talk about what I did during this past week, and the different approaches I tried. What worked, and what didn't.

Basic Shader Knowledge

Edge detection in Unity relies on using the depthNormal texture from the camera.

I've written about this before, so recommend checking it out just to get a basic understanding:

Unity Shaders - Depth and Normal Textures - Part 1

Even / Thinner Edges

The edge detection shader I had been using for most of the past year, relied on this algorithm:

- Sample surrounding pixels
- Compare the normal values of opposite surrounding pixels (if values are close, it's not an edge, else, it is)
- Compare the depth values of opposite surrounding pixels (if values are close, it's not an edge, else it is)

So basically we test for both normals and depth. The pixel only has to pass one of the tests to be considered an edge. Some edges the depth test miss, some the normal test miss.

This is what it looks like:



I describe this version as using uneven lines, as you can see that some of the lines are slightly thicker than the others. These are always at the place where there is both normal and depth difference, so it' just that the edge there is being drawn by both the normal and depth test.

I decided to try another approach, inspired by Lucas Pope's approach for the edge detection shader in Return of The Obra Dinn.

This time, here's the algorithm:

- sample surrounding pixels
- combine depth and normal values to form a color
- compare the values of the new combined color in surrounding pixels (if values are close, it's not an edge, else it is)

This is what it looks like:



The lines are definitely much more even (since we're only doing one test now), but also a lot thinner.

I actually am not such a big fan of the thin lines. Some people said it looked cleaner, but I felt it looked too faded, and didn't have a strong visual impact.

My last approach was combining the two approaches, using the first approach for lines that are closer (so that they are thicker), and using the second approach for lines farther away.

This basically just involved having both of the above algorithms together in one shader, and I would set a depth split threshold. If the depth values were below this (closer to camera), I'd use first approach, if depth values were above the depth split threshold (farther away), then we use second approach.

This is what it looks like:



There are several problems with this. Having thick lines closer and thin lines farther doesn't really help as much with depth perception as using color (lighter lines farther away, darker lines closer).

The width of the lines is due to sample distance, which is actually discrete, so that means the line width change is not continuous.

The farther lines are very faded, and I actually prefer how the far lines look in the uneven line version, as you can see better what's in the distance.

Finally, and most importantly, this version looks awful in motion. You can see exactly where the algorithm change happens as the line width change is quite sudden. So it just looks like this bit of darkness that's moving in front of you when you move.

So this whole exploration took about a week, as I was also writing a custom inspector to sort out variables (so that the inspector only showed the necessary variables for each edge detection method), and also connecting it to the MIDI controller for tweaking (which was a real pain to set up with all three methods as I had to write in ways to change the setup of the MIDI controller as well).

In the end, it turned out the method I had before was the best one. This was a bit of a disappointment, but such is game development.

Anyway, while doing all this shader stuff, I thought I might as well try to tackle the edge detection shader artifact issue that had been bugging me for the past 2 years.

Continuing in Part 2.
Logged

William Chyr
Level 8
***



View Profile WWW
« Reply #817 on: September 13, 2015, 08:28:37 PM »

Devlog Update #244 - 09/13/2015

Been really busy the past several weeks, getting ready for name change announcement, and a ton of stuff in the works.

To be honest, I'm feeling pretty stressed out and overwhelmed. I think once the name change announcement is made, I'll be able to rest for a bit.

Writing here just to let you all know development is still going, and I will get back into regular posts here soon.

I'm still streaming regularly over on Twitch: http://www.twitch.tv/williamchyr

Here are some screenshots of a glitch effect I've been playing with:









This happened due to some weird bug in the shader that renders the depth buffer inverted from everything else.

Here's one of my favorite screenshots that I've taken in a very long time:



Also been working on water - that's almost done. The hardest part is getting it to work with world wrapping. There's a lot of edge cases.

David has also been working on a level editor. More stuff to show about that soon.
Logged

oldblood
Level 10
*****

...Not again.


View Profile
« Reply #818 on: September 14, 2015, 04:47:08 AM »

Gorgeous screenshots of the glitch and your (and my) new fav screenshot. Awesome work! Glad to hear that a name change is imminent. I was always worried about the marketability of the current name, I think you've done a great job controlling the "relativity game" search terms but it's still not the most memorable name besides from the fact just searching for "relativity" will generate no relevant results.

Hang in there with the stress. When I'm feeling overwhelmed, I just keep setting small/attainable goals that break apart the piece of development that's overwhelming me into bitesize chunks. Keeps me feeling like forward momentum is occurring... Hang in there. Looking forward to what's coming next...
Logged

sidbarnhoorn
Level 3
***


View Profile WWW
« Reply #819 on: September 14, 2015, 05:49:13 AM »

Super gorgeous!!  :D
Logged

Siddhartha Barnhoorn
--------------------
Award winning composer

Composed music for the games Antichamber, Out There, The Stanley Parable, Planet Alpha...

Website:
http://www.sidbarnhoorn.com
Bandcamp:
https://siddharthabarnhoorn.bandcamp.com
Twitter:
https://twitter.com/SidBarnhoorn
Pages: 1 ... 39 40 [41] 42 43 ... 63
Print
Jump to:  

Theme orange-lt created by panic