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[fallen2]

So can you get a refund on the next Halo game or Gears of War then, I think you will find the answer is no, then why is that?

Also what possible reason whould they have for the refund, it didnt work, play the demo first, so the game works then, then you want a refund for what reason?

[princec]

I think you find that you can get a refund on the next Halo or GOW, as it is actually a) your statuory right, in Europe at least and b) if you buy it with a credit card, you can simply get a chargeback. You don't need a "good" reason to ask for a refund.

If I bought Bioshock tomorrow I'd be asking for a refund as it runs crappily on my system. Fortunately I played the demo first

Cas

[ravuya]

Most north american stores do not accept returns on opened software. This is because, instead of paying a small amount of taxes to protect the consumer, we would rather spend a large amount to spread Christianity to the middle east at the barrel of a gun.

[Alex May]

Oho! A lefty, eh? 

j/k. Totally agree

[ravuya]

I'm just a wee wee wee bit left of centre.

Back on topic, though, the obvious reason they don't accept opened software is because of the "Fry's Rental" (burn a copy, then return the game to the store). Incidentally, this is exactly the reason we're arguing against refunds in this thread.

As a consumer, refunds are awesome. As a developer without the ability to disable their copy of the game (and consumers are getting smarter about software that "phones home" for mandatory activation), not so much.

However, a lot of game stores do buy back used games, but they pay so little for them you're still going to lose a lot of money. Perhaps you could offer like 25% back?

Edit: Actually, that reminds me of a common complaint I hear from people who work at game stores: taking used copies of games with mandatory one-time Internet activation (like WoW) that have already been 'used up'.

[Xander]

There's something I always found so sweet about online activiations. It's like a kid who's just settling down at college checking in with his folks at home.

'Hey mum! I'm doing fine thanks, just wanted to let you know things are going great. Yeah, I'll see you in the fall. Sure, keep me updated! Cheerio!'

Ah... they grow up so fast. Refunding is awesome, but in the UK with GAME there was a time it was quite rediculous. I used to live in Southhampton as a kid, and once EB was taken over by GAME and the new shopping centre opened there, there were 3 GAME stores within literally a few hundred metres of each other. They used to (maybe still do?) a return policy where you could return it within a set amount of days (10 I think) and they would let you exchange it for something else no questions asked. Or, as close to what that means, they still ask questions but you feel a lot less obligated to answer them directly. Except PC games, which were never allowed really, because they were so much easier to copy than console games, heck you could just drag and drop as far as I'm aware. And of course online games, because of the using up thing of course.

It's a grey area for sure, and I guess it's just up to developers to regulate it themselves, though a great shame that such a thing is needed. Still, Steam seems to be working well for a lot of people. Viva Digital Distribution?

[Alex May]

No shit? My name's also Alex and I grew up in Southampton.

[Jimbob]

Yeh, I worked in GAME for a while (nowhere near Southampton tho) and had to ask every single person to check the System Requirements (although you'd get the obvious parents who would say "I've got WindowsXP, is that alright?") so that if they came back to say it didn't work, they couldn't just get a refund. I think we offered exchanges in some cases though. On a different note, it was sometimes amusing that some peeps who I worked with (no names, because THEY might be watching) would take traded-in console games (at a staff discount) and go down the road to the 'other' retailer for a tiny but tidy profit... 

[Oddball]

Didn't read the whole thread so forgive me if this has already been mentioned. If you are a UK seller, selling to a UK buyer, then you must offer a unconditional 7 day return on any distance sale (Sales not made face to face). This is part of the buyers statutory rights, and cannot be waivered. Here's the link for more details.

http://www.dti.gov.uk/consumers/fact-sheets/page38102.html

[DrDerekDoctors]

Didn't read the whole thread so forgive me if this has already been mentioned. If you are a UK seller, selling to a UK buyer, then you must offer a unconditional 7 day return on any distance sale (Sales not made face to face). This is part of the buyers statutory rights, and cannot be waivered. Here's the link for more details.

http://www.dti.gov.uk/consumers/fact-sheets/page38102.html

Except the 7 day cooling off period doesn't apply to unsealed software, so if you have some way of determining whether software has been run or not you can refuse the refund.

[princec]

...except when the goods prove unfit for purpose, ie. the customer claims that the software does not run correctly or at all on their machine. In practise, the customer has all of the rights here and only a very foolhardy retailer would waste time and money disputing this with a customer.

Cas

[DrDerekDoctors]

Ah, but if you can only buy the game by completing the demo or at least running the game program then you can discount that as a possibility most of the time.

[princec]

Possibly - was talking about retail there

I wouldn't hesitate to refund someone, even if they played through the entire game.

Cas

[DrDerekDoctors]

Liberal sap.

Why, though, in that instance would you refund them? I mean of all the examples to choose that's the craziest, surely?

[Alex May]

Exactly; what he's saying is that he will offer a refund even under the craziest of circumstances.

[DrDerekDoctors]

MADNESS! GAAAAAAAH!

[skaldicpoet9]

In my opinion you don't have to offer a guarantee if you don't want to since the credit card process automatically gives one.  At the same time if someone writes to you bitching that they want their money back it's much cheaper to issue the refund than it is to have a crank sending angry e-mails to your ISP and transaction provider / PayPal and getting your accounts frozen.

I agree, I think it would be much easier to allow customers to contact you about possible refunds on non-working games. I think that it cuts down on the fraud factor by limiting the amount of people that are willing to go that extra mile to get their money back (which in theory would mean that the people that are really having trouble will be the ones contacting you for their cash back). Besides, I don't think that refunds are very necessary these days anyways due to the fact that if someone wants they can contact their bank and or credit card provider and dispute the charges...

[princec]

I think mostly what this is all about is paranoia on the part of developers who think that everyone wants to rip them off. The vast, vast majority of people who buy your games - and I mean looking at my own statistics, 99.95% - will not ask for a refund having bought your game. So when it happens, just do it happily and know that someone will be slightly happier for having got their money back when they asked. And if you're like me, be happy yourself too, knowing that you have remotely deregistered their copy too

Cas

[DrDerekDoctors]

99.95% is a healthy statistic, I agree. If that's a typical ratio then indeed I'm making a mountain out of a molehill. It'd be interesting to get some more wide-ranging data from people broken down by game to see if there are any trends to do with genre or publisher.

[ஒழுக்கின்மை (Paul Eres)]

I'm just a wee wee wee bit left of centre.

Hey, that's not a strictly left position. Ron Paul's a fairly far-right republican and has the same position.

But where were we? Refunds!

I've only ever had one person ask for a refund. And that's because they double-ordered the game by mistake, ordered two copies on the same day.

I think I'm going to echo princec here: don't advertise that you give refunds, but if someone asks for one, give it to them just to avoid problems.