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TIGSource ForumsCommunityTownhallWorld of Tahl
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codemeister1990
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« on: December 01, 2008, 01:14:48 AM »

I stopped working on GoE2 to pursue World of Tahl
which will be an mmorpg
http://worldoftahl.forum-motion.net/ is the forum site
which will have links and other information to the game
as its completed.
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Decipher
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« Reply #1 on: December 01, 2008, 01:50:10 AM »

Don't get me wrong but it's totally counter-productive and pityful to abandon a project for another one. If you start something, as Phil Fish would say, "just fucking do it".
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kyn
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« Reply #2 on: December 01, 2008, 02:08:47 AM »

Don't get me wrong but it's totally counter-productive and pityful to abandon a project for another one. If you start something, as Phil Fish would say, "just fucking do it".
And on top of that, changing to the overcrowded market of MMORPG's
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brog
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« Reply #3 on: December 01, 2008, 02:40:53 AM »

overcrowded

not to mention technically difficult, costly, and just generally less likely to ever be finished than a game in any other genre.
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Don Andy
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« Reply #4 on: December 01, 2008, 02:48:06 AM »

Don't. It won't work. I can tell you that from much, much wasted experience.
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Hajo
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« Reply #5 on: December 01, 2008, 02:56:42 AM »

Don't. It won't work. I can tell you that from much, much wasted experience.

Well, MMOs, also hobbyist-made ones, can work. It's not so rocket science as some people want to make believe.

But seeing the current density and competition in the MMO market, with so many "free to play" games popping up, there seems to be no place for new projects, unless they have some really new ideas that will attract players.
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Don Andy
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« Reply #6 on: December 01, 2008, 03:09:31 AM »

Don't. It won't work. I can tell you that from much, much wasted experience.

Well, MMOs, also hobbyist-made ones, can work. It's not so rocket science as some people want to make believe.

I know it can work, but it won't. Sure, EVERYBODY can fiddle together a MMO in a few minutes these days, there are enough tools for it out there (the most commonly abused probably being BYOND). But in the end you are putting way too much effort (and in some cases a lot of money) into a project that's absolutely not worth it in the end.

On paper or in your head its the best thing since sliced bread, but in the end you're left with a rather shitty game that's a 1:1 copy of every other MMO ever and has nothing to offer that other free MMOs don't offer, too. Nobody will play it, the thing will be hard/too costly to maintain (if it isn't hosted from a home computer) and in the end the whole thing will just go down and you're sitting there thinking why you haven't spend the last three years making real games.

And in the best case you'll also have some sort of small community that'll help you keep up the delusion that your game will be some sort of sleeper hit.

So in essence, yes, you can make a MMO with no problem, even entirely on your own within a reasonable timespan, but it'll be a waste of time. You can do so much more better things with that time, instead of creating another free MMO that maybe a hundred unique people will ever play. There are flash games done in a few hours that have more players.

In my opinion, based on what I've been through, if you're REALLY intent on creating a detailed online world that people can enjoy, then go get together a few dedicated people and try yourself on a MUD or MUSH. If the general idea of the game wouldn't have been detailed enough for creating a good MUD, then it wouldn't have made it as a graphical MMO either. There are enough grindfest games without substance out there.

Edit:

On a less serious sidenote, this thread sure comes around.
« Last Edit: December 01, 2008, 03:47:05 AM by Don Andy » Logged
Alex May
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« Reply #7 on: December 01, 2008, 04:01:42 AM »

You don't need a game to be a hit to get you by. A relatively low number of subscribers will keep your company afloat provided you have only a few guys on the team. That said it's folly if you're new to development in general IMO.
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codemeister1990
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« Reply #8 on: December 01, 2008, 09:39:30 AM »

One of the many reasons I abandoned GoE2 was that I was
working towards making an mmo, and now I can learn how
to do that, so I shall.
I have a few people working on it.
A lead map artist
A programmer
A website designer/secondary map artist
Project Manager (me)
I might have another map artist or two
depending on how things go.
I hope someone other than minamina signs up to the WoT
forums xD
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Don Andy
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« Reply #9 on: December 01, 2008, 09:48:51 AM »

I hope someone other than minamina signs up to the WoT
forums xD

If you're lucky they won't and you'll only waste a few months instead of years.
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codemeister1990
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« Reply #10 on: December 01, 2008, 03:06:53 PM »

I hope someone other than minamina signs up to the WoT
forums xD

If you're lucky they won't and you'll only waste a few months instead of years.
...thanks for the support
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neon
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« Reply #11 on: December 01, 2008, 03:11:29 PM »

I hope someone other than minamina signs up to the WoT
forums xD

If you're lucky they won't and you'll only waste a few months instead of years.
...thanks for the support

 Sad it's a warning.
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godsavant
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« Reply #12 on: December 01, 2008, 05:30:12 PM »

...as Phil Fish would say, "just fucking do it".

Considering how sidetracked he's managed to get with Fez, I'd take that with a grain of salt.

A lead map artist
A programmer
A website designer/secondary map artist
Project Manager (me)
I might have another map artist or two
depending on how things go.

I'd encourage your idea, but does it really have to be an MMO? Judging from this team roster, you could easily make a decent good ol' 3D or 2D isometric RPG, without the need to worry about hosting, connections, or competing with whatever Nexon shits out that particular month.  Wink It's certainly an ambitious idea, but judging from the desolate state of your boards, I'd say it'd be a long haul that will have dubious return in proportion to the effort required, especially now that many corporate studios with far more resources will be competing for the same consumers' time as you.
« Last Edit: December 01, 2008, 06:22:28 PM by godsavant » Logged
codemeister1990
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« Reply #13 on: December 01, 2008, 06:15:53 PM »

The forum is crap I know, its all I can really do right now though
better than nothing?
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Don Andy
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« Reply #14 on: December 03, 2008, 02:41:28 AM »

OK, here's the basic rundown of how it'll go. Based on the experience of having gone through the same process twice (with an estimated wasted time of about 3-4 years)

You will start with a really good idea and a bunch of people (in this case your current staff) who like the idea and wanna support you. You attribute yourself as the Project Manager because you can't really do things as good as your staff, but that's OK. You'll just handle the web stuff like a homepage and forum.
So you set up that forum and things are going along pretty cool. Your staff seems motivated, your forum gets a few members (maybe even about 50 active members) and everything runs smoothly. Soon however, your staff members realize that working on a MMO isn't really all that cool and fun as they thought it'd be, but is actually REAL WORK, so they start not replying to your requests anymore or take really long to do the smallest things, until they disappear completely. Since you depend on these people, one of them dropping out essentially stalls that project (till you can find a replacement, starting the circle anew ad infitum). The community you have by then, which has been eagerly following development and making absurd feature requests along the way (thus forming a completely wrong image of the game), will start to notice the lack in updates and get uneasy, leading in the staff alienating themselves from the community. At the height of it all, you're left with a broken game, a pissed off community, and maybe one or two staff members that sticked around till the end but aren't really doing anything.

The whole process can take anything from a few months to a few years, depending on how often you repeat the staff replacement cycle. About halfway along that time you will get bored of the project yourself, but don't really want to abandon it, so you will spend most of the time trying to motivate your staff for a project you aren't really motivated for anymore yourself.

Also, I'm really not trying to flame or diss you or anything, I'm merely trying to prevent you from making a really grave mistake. At the end of it you will REALLY miss the time you wasted on it. I'm 21 now and can be a pretty good programmer (if I want to), but still haven't done anything notable, simply because I've been wasting my time trying to do a MMORPG. And in retrospect, I really wish I would've spend those years in these forums, working on my programming.

So there.
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Hajo
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« Reply #15 on: December 03, 2008, 05:14:12 AM »

You attribute yourself as the Project Manager because you can't really do things as good as your staff, but that's OK.

Project leader of a hobby/amateur project should be a fairly good programmer, to advance the project all by himself, and at least as much of a painter to create intermediate art.

If you cannot understand and fix the code of your best programmer, you are totally screwed if he leaves.

Andy had bad luck there, but I also have seen projects fail in similar ways.
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Don Andy
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« Reply #16 on: December 03, 2008, 06:54:37 AM »

Project leader of a hobby/amateur project should be a fairly good programmer, to advance the project all by himself, and at least as much of a painter to create intermediate art.

If you cannot understand and fix the code of your best programmer, you are totally screwed if he leaves.

And that EXACTLY is the major problem. I'm not saying it is the case here, but usually with these projects the "Project Leader/Manager" is the guy who had the idea but absolutely none skills to realize it. So he gathers a few flukes around him who like the idea and lets them do the work. And if they suddenly stop doing work you're kind of screwed.

Andy had bad luck there, but I also have seen projects fail in similar ways.

And it scarred me oh so deep Lips Sealed

But 90% of projects like this are destined to fail (and do) and while this may be a rather "meh" fact for other people, it is a giant waste of time for everyone involved. I've seen a great many of talents who wasted their skills on projects like this and could've done so much better and beautiful things.

I mean, there is this really talented pixel artist who put his whole heart into the project. He gets better and better with pixeling over the years, but then suddenly the project breaks and all of his work has been pretty much for zilch. This'll pretty much cause him to never work for a game project again (or at least not anytime soon) and another great talent is lost. Same goes for programmers, composers, etc.
A project you work years on but never see it going anywhere can pretty much suck the life out of a programmer. I've seen it happen.
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Tanner
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« Reply #17 on: December 03, 2008, 02:22:32 PM »

look at all dat joose text
noctis v  Cry
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« Reply #18 on: December 05, 2008, 10:57:01 AM »

The MMORPG market is quite saturated. Might not be wise.
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« Reply #19 on: December 09, 2008, 07:11:17 AM »

Although I haven't been involved in the development of a MMO, I agree completely with what Don Andy said. It might be a learning experience for the artists, programmers etc., but I completely agree that it would be an even better learning experience to be involved in smaller projects that is more likely to be completed.
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