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erebusman
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« on: April 29, 2014, 10:47:24 AM »






Welcome!

This project is a dream project that I've been wanting to do for a long time. There's tons of information that I'll be sharing over time but I'm going to start off with the quick facts for those who want to know what this game is about so you can delve deeper as the devlogs continue or you can skip if its not your cup of tea.



Chronicles of the Dead Sun : The Rise of Dagon is a dungeon based RPG in the vein of Eye of the Beholder, Lands of Lore, and Dungeon Master to name a few.

While those are the inspiration for The Rise of Dagon I want to state up front this effort should be looked at similar to the way Diablo borrowed from the rogue like genre -- I hope to bring forward the visceral feel of crawling through a dungeon in first person perspective, but bring more depth of game play with modern features and game play.

One particular reason this is so dear to me is that I've always loved those classic dungeon games but (as you may have noticed) AAA studios have largely abandoned many sub-genre's of RPG's as they weren't glorious Oblivion/Skyrim style games.





new level set:







Furthermore the MMORPG craze has left players of single player RPG's with fewer and fewer choices each year.

The AAA bar to what is worth making has left generation's of RPG gamers without content that they love, and I'm here to fill the gap!



While nothing is final some proposed features at this time are:

- classic first person dungeon crawl RPG style game play
- hack and slash combat, with pulse-timed grid style movement system
- multiple floor depth level design (vaulted ceilings, ledges, stairs, pits on same level etc)
- strong distinct class system
- procedurally generated loot
- reputation system with factions of NPC's and Monsters
- multiple and varied player races
- chapter based development to improve development to player delivery time for content

There are of course other features that I'd love to have in the game; some are stretch goals -- others are just really cool and I don't want to break them out yet until I have a chance to implement them a bit before talking about it.

Right now this is planned as a Desktop title produced using Unity 3D.  This means Windows, MacOSX, and Linux should all be reasonable goals.


About me: I've been a hobbyist/indie artist for 20 years, and as of 2012 I learned programming and began developing games on my own as the indie studio Infernohawke Entertainment.  

www.infernohawke.com
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« Last Edit: March 09, 2016, 07:43:00 AM by erebusman » Logged

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« Reply #1 on: April 29, 2014, 10:49:16 AM »

This is a dream project for me so I really don't care how long it takes. Its going to be a great journey and I invite you to check in from time to time. Things are going to get interesting.

So I do have a great plot that I've worked on for a long time, a very rich universe that I've invented and pretty big heap of game lore to surround the events of the story in.  I'll share some of those things later but since this is the announcement post for it I wanted to lay out my first set of goals.

First and foremost I am in the pre-production and exploratory phase right now.  At this point I am working on the following:

- experimenting with art production tools to find the right look & feel that I need
- creating the first prototype dungeon
- creating a game play combat prototype

For the look and feel I'm a little bit in a tough spot. I don't own a commercial version of  any of the AAA art production tools like 3DS Max, Zbrush, Mudbox, Maya etc.     I do own an educational license of 3DS Max; but I can't use that to produce my game as I plan on selling it.  Unfortunately the cost of commercial license is far outside of my reach so I'm using lower cost tools.

At this time I'm getting along with with low poly modelling done in  Silo 2 3D.  It  is definitely a nice low poly modeler - but it hasn't been updated in ages and has quite a few bugs that kill me from time to time.  I'm a very frequent saver; but I've still lost 30+ minutes of work due to fatal bugs in Silo about 3-4 times in the past week.   

In any case I am attempting to find my workflow to make mid-poly dungeons with high poly sculpts for the normal, specular, ambient occlusion maps and such.  So since I don't have Zbrush or Mudbox I'm having to learn Blender 3D.  Blender has been really rough to adapt too and it feels like it lacks a lot of the more polished sculpting tools that Mudbox has for instance.

So for my first update I wanted to share some of my prototyping workflow here.

Firstly I make a low poly dungeon wall segment using Silo 2 3D as seen in the first image here:



Then I increase the detail as I'm hoping to create a more physically modelled environment that still benefits from sculpting. Basically what's going on here is that all those 'extra' boxes you are seeing above are being extruded and then beveled in  3d to make actual bricks sticking out. They would still be considered low poly at this point however.



 Next we have the sculpt in Blender.  Honestly I have only done a very small handful of sculpting before and it was all in an educational version of Mudbox.   Blender is very different and lacks a lot of the type of brushes that I was used to using (or I'm just a complete noob at it - take your pic).   I t took a lot of experimentation but I was able to get it took roughly how I wanted as seen in the third shot here.



 Then I finally get it put together and I noticed that things didn't look right. I have gone back and edited my scene to do a comparison here because things didn't work out and I wanted to share what was happening.

So my beveled and extruded wall is on the left in this next image, and my 'low poly' flat wall is on the right.



As you can see from the images and close up cut outs that the higher poly extruded bricks actually turned out pretty poorly for me in this case, while the flat wall looks "okay". 

I'm certainly not satisfied with the results but it was nice to be able to get all the way through this process for the first time ever and have a little dungeon hallway sitting in front of me using normal, specular and ambient maps on the walls!

So for a first week of exploratory work I'm pretty happy.

I hope to do updates once a week; that'll help me stay productive without doing daily updates I can balance blogging updates vs working on my game. 

See you next week!
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« Reply #2 on: April 29, 2014, 01:16:52 PM »

Chronicles of the Dead Sun : The Rise of Dagon is a dungeon based RPG in the vein of Eye of the Beholder, Lands of Lore, and Dungeon Master to name a few.
YES PLEASE!!!!
This is a dream project for me so I really don't care how long it takes. Its going to be a great journey and I invite you to check in from time to time. Things are going to get interesting.
YES! DON'T YOU GODDAM QUIT ON ME!!!
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erebusman
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« Reply #3 on: April 29, 2014, 02:02:58 PM »

Chronicles of the Dead Sun : The Rise of Dagon is a dungeon based RPG in the vein of Eye of the Beholder, Lands of Lore, and Dungeon Master to name a few.
YES PLEASE!!!!
This is a dream project for me so I really don't care how long it takes. Its going to be a great journey and I invite you to check in from time to time. Things are going to get interesting.
YES! DON'T YOU GODDAM QUIT ON ME!!!

Ha!  Thanks man you just made my day!

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« Reply #4 on: April 30, 2014, 08:56:09 AM »

Love those games, and I really want to see more of them. You nailed it when you refer that the genre has mostly been abandoned.

Hope to see this released. Smiley
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« Reply #5 on: April 30, 2014, 08:59:48 AM »

That's pretty awesome.  I really loved those games back in the day, and it would be cool to see them come back in some way.  I hope you get this done.  Looks good so far.  Will definitely be rooting for you.
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« Reply #6 on: May 03, 2014, 01:24:14 PM »

Note: To save bandwidth and forum load times these are small images, see full size images on my blog


It's been a really busy and productive week for me working on The Rise of Dagon!  I actually had to pick and choose my images to share and made some combined shots to I wasn't uploading 15 images or so :-)

So the first update is with the sculpting challenges I had last week I decided that I should definitely explore some other options.  One of the items really high on my 'must use' list is Substance Designer which I picked up on Steam sale 50% this last Christmas.

So I had purchased a very nice texture from the Unity 3D Asset store and brought it in to Substance Designer.



In here I am still very much a newbie with this tool but I was able to put together a basic substance, and add some grunge to the surface.  Once I was happy I then exported the substance file and as you see in the screenshot here I have some parameterized values I can use to adjust this substance in game.
Obviously as I learn the tool better I should get a lot more parameters to adjust but this was a really satisfying first use; and was not too difficult.

So next up we have a new dungeon door I created in Silo2.  I then used the texture I had modified in Substance Designer and tiled it, adjusted the parameters and came up with a very satisfying looking wall/arch texture.

I also designed the texture for this door using yet another new tool I had purchased on sale this week on Steam called  MindTex.   MindTex essentially takes your diffuse map texture and lets you generate normal, ao, specular (and other maps).  The results here are pretty decent.   Not as proper as they would be with a proper high poly bake of course; but I am trying to get some prototyping going -- these are not intended to be final assets!
 

 Next I created a low poly torch and wall sconce, and then actually used the MindTex again .. it turned out pretty nicely yet again and definitely saved me some time.

I did also try a high poly sculpt on the torch in Blender but I was not satisfied with the results; and after messing with it for the most of one evening I knew I had to move on and try something else so the MindTex approach was definitely welcome.



Next up I finally experienced what I would call a success in using Blender 3D to sculpt an object and generate useable maps out of it in the end.   I needed a dungeon ceiling and created a low poly ceiling segment in Silo2 and then sculpted it in Blender 3D all in one evening!


 
 As you can see the sculpt itself is not incredibly detailed but I wasn't willing to spend more than one evening when I was not sure how it was going to turn out and as I've mentioned before, I'm in rapid prototyping mode here!  So we see below the dungeon ceiling texture map bakes i was able to do in XNormal after exporting the high poly .obj file from Blender 3D.


 
And finally we have our crowning achievement for the week .. the new and much improved dungeon hallway with  substance based texture, low poly door, low poly torch and sconce and a very nice fire particle I purchased in the Unity 3D asset store :





I'm really pleased with the look and feel here, I'll be doing a few more items to be able to form the architecture I want for my prototyping but I definitely feel like I'm on track now!  

Tell me what you think about the progress and screenshots this week?
« Last Edit: May 06, 2014, 08:42:15 AM by erebusman » Logged

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« Reply #7 on: May 06, 2014, 06:30:31 AM »

Approved: How you show the tools used and the steps towards HOW you make stuff. I liked that. Last year I was trying to make a prototype like this, and because I suck at much everything, I stopped. I was going more towards Arcana.

Anyhoo, I looks GREAT, but the door is a bit too glossy.

How are you thinking about combat? Turn-based or kinda like Grimrock? And movement? Grid like or like FPS?

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« Reply #8 on: May 06, 2014, 07:09:11 AM »

Approved: How you show the tools used and the steps towards HOW you make stuff. I liked that. Last year I was trying to make a prototype like this, and because I suck at much everything, I stopped. I was going more towards Arcana.

Thanks, yeah I often appreciate when other dev's share process -- it helps me learn which is something I do not get a lot of working by myself so often.


Anyhoo, I looks GREAT, but the door is a bit too glossy.

I totally agree, I'll be re-doing it entirely at some point as it is a rapid prototype but I can probably change the specular settings a little bit for now.

How are you thinking about combat? Turn-based or kinda like Grimrock? And movement? Grid like or like FPS?

The combat is definitely grid based due to the influence of the classic's I quoted at the beginning (Eye of the Beholder, Dungeon Master, etc).

I have an interesting idea that is similar to Legend of Grimrock but because I didn't code it I can't be sure if its similar or just resembles it a little bit.

My idea of "Pulse Based Combat" revolves around letting the player make moves as close to 'real time' as they can possibly do - but still letting monsters get in their turns as appropriate.

I have not fully ironed it out but there is likely to be some underlying 'action point' style system that may or may not be readily visible to the player that helps determine that a pulse has been 'committed to'.

What this means to the player is just because you can click super fast does not mean you can have unlimited moves in a "x second period" .. it means once you've used a certain amount of actions the monsters will be going next , and then its your turn again.

The classic examples might be:

- I used a slow / heavy attack like a 2 handed axe ; this took a long time and now I'm locked in to the turn. The rest of my characters can all attack before the turn is consumed.

- I use a quick attack like a bow, or dagger attack ; I can still take other actions including possibly moving before being locked in to the turn. However if another player attacks (or heals etc) I risk being locked in to the turn and unable to move before the monsters move.

What I hope to do that is especially cool in this is have different monsters have different action points themselves -- including some monsters have more or less action points than players.  This simply means some monsters may go twice per turn for the player, or others will go once per two turns for the player.

Obviously though the monsters will have their power adjusted to make those action differences 'fair' to the player.

The real point of all the focus about pulse based timing and action points is to focus the player on the strategy of combat and movement specifically in relationship to the exact style of combat the monster they are facing uses.

Thanks for the insightful question!
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« Reply #9 on: May 11, 2014, 04:59:34 PM »

 Hello, this week's update is a little shorter than last week. I've had some sort of flue the past few days over the weekend and it really hit me hard.  I still got some things done earlier in the week and  been contemplating some changes..



Firstly I continued to build out an initial alpha prototype dungeon. As seen in the first screenshot I started adding some small bits of visual decorations as the wall bracket seen to the left here.  Its not textured as nicely as it will be eventually but at least I got the model in.


Next I took a little bit of time and polished up my movement code. The screenshot here depicts a black and grey checked grid that I used to test to make sure it was moving me exactly where it should be each time. 



The blocks seen at the edge were an asset placement test to see how I'm going to implement arches/pillars and how they will look when you are in any particular square of the grid. 

I was concerned about having them either improperly obscure the players vision or be too 'thin'. Oddly enough It worked out exactly as I was hoping it would the first time!

Next up we have the big news of this post which I honestly would like to discuss a LOT more but because I'm sick today I'm going to just give a teaser and I will explore this with you in more detail next week and that is I decided to try UE4 (Unreal Engine 4).

What spurred my decision was Tim Sweeny modified the license terms to not charge developers for the first 3k of revenue each quarter.  That being the case there were only 2 potential barriers.

Barrier 1 "Sunk Cost" :  What this basically means is perhaps you've invested too far in to a certain platform or technology that you shouldn't consider making a change.  Or you paid too much money for it etc. One great example of too big of a sunk cost to change was  probably Duke Nukem Forever. There were several times they should have finished what they started.   Being as I'm only in my 3rd week here the risk is extremely low.

Barrier 2 "Technology growing pains" : Again here I felt the risk was relatively low. I've been using Unity for less than a year and I had used Unreal in the past for some modding. I  decided to replicate the work I've done so far in the Unreal engine and it only took two evenings to get this new shot you see below.



It looks really nice if I don't say so myself!

So I've created a screenshot comparison between the Unity version and the Unreal version -- the only thing I'm missing is the wall sconce with fire sprite.  Also I didn't align all the textures exactly the same I can see now.



Hopefully for next week I can get the torch/fire in and then have a better aligned comparison and talk about my findings and if  I'll be making the switch or not!
 
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« Reply #10 on: May 13, 2014, 06:23:42 AM »

The door seems way better in UE4.

So, now UE4 is free if you make less that 3k in a quarter? Or if you make no money out of it? Now that's great!

You spiked my interest with your comparison.

Haul ass my friend! Pronto!
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« Reply #11 on: May 13, 2014, 08:24:54 PM »

The door seems way better in UE4.

So, now UE4 is free if you make less that 3k in a quarter? Or if you make no money out of it? Now that's great!

You spiked my interest with your comparison.

Haul ass my friend! Pronto!

Yeah the door is way better its pretty weird because its the same textures and stuff; however Unreal's lighting model is physical based *right now* (while Unity's will be some day in the future) and I think that's making a huge difference.

Obviously the controls in both engine I had to tweak the settings for the shader / material on each also matters.


I also am leaning towards the specular richness and shadow detail is really intense compared to unity's (current model).
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« Reply #12 on: May 17, 2014, 08:06:47 PM »

This week's update will focus on a comparison of features, costs, and reasons why I might stick with Unity 4/5 or Unreal Engine 4 (UE4).




Reality Check

First lets get a reality check. Last week I was sick on Friday but it turned out I had come down with a viral stomach flu and was sick all weekend. In fact I was bed ridden most of the weekend and finally got up for good around 5pm Sunday which is highly unusual -- I'm the kind of guy who has to keep super busy and can't stay in bed.

From that point on I was in a slow recovery .. but also hitting crunch mode at my work we have a software release coming up soon and I did about 60+ hours of work this past week even when I was recovering from my flu.  To put it in one point of perspective I lost 11 pounds this week .. I was not feeling good.


I say this not to give an excuse for how much work I have or have not done this week - but to point something out to fellow and hopeful indie dev's out there: I had a hell week folks but despite that I got some things done! 

My personal rule is: I always do what I can.

That's my standard, and it serves me pretty well. My promise is I'll always do what I can!  And its what I recommend to others. Life comes up and stuff happens!. Don't feel bad if you had a busy week.  But also don't drop your project if you had a slow week either!  Do what you can, and feel good about it - then keep going. So moving on..

So a quick list of my prototype goals I worked on this week:
Prototype Goals

As seen in the header image I created my first Unreal Particle Effect which is a torch flame effect (super bright!)
I also imported my torch sconce, and torch and the related materials and created material definitions for them
Finally I tweaked some of the scene material definitions even further as I learned more about materials particularly tweaking metallic and roughness values for several items in the scene. The roof and floor don't look right to me yet but they look a little better than they had.
I learned a few things in those items though.  The first one is in the torch sconce material the UVW's were just a teeny bit outside of bounds and Unreal did not like this.  In fact it did not like this so badly it would not build lightmaps on it!!

In most engines it would tile to the otherside and or perhaps just not get lit properly .. but Unreal was picky and let me know about it.  Not hard to adjust but something I'll have to pay more attention to than Unity because Unity doesn't care about those things.

Not only that but theres a technique I use in engines that don't stop this: I often overlap UV's or tile them on purpose to get certain coverage easier ... so that technique is out the window.   All fine and good -- nothing a good UV and texture map can't solve but important to discover!

Secondly the Particle system in Unreal appears to be vastly more configurable than that in Unity.  I've no complaints about Unity's particle system to begin with -- its quite functional and has a boat load of options (more than I ever used).  But Unreal's is even greater, and lots of these options are what I would call more nuanced and more mature engine items.

These are easiest to discover and explore when editing an existing particle that one of Unreal's built in example projects has. I'm certainly not going to outline it all here as I'm still a newbie to it all but if I were to make a guess the built in particle system in Unreal has somewhere on the order of magnitude of 4x the built in default options of effecting your particle system than Unity does.

To be clear though  -- I had no complaints about Unity's particle system and I was able to do everything I wanted to.   I wouldn't pick one engine over the other right now based on the particle system -- but it is nice to see more options and know that I would have more control in my hands if I end up using Unreal.
Unreal VS Unity


So now lets take a look at some numbers and because theres too many ways to add this up lets just stick to base scenario that I am dealing with; and that is I'm interested in creating a desktop title and pretend we arent interested in mobile. So while I'll mention mobile costs I won't add it up in the totals!

Also I am not including Unity Free in this comparison.  You might wonder why?  The reason is I need as good of lighting as I can get - and the lighting in Unity free is essentially crap. It's just not an option at all.

Unity 4 Subscription  $75.00 per month per platform you would like to use
Unreal 4 Subscription  $19.00 per month + 5%  of gross revenue past your first 3k each quarter for all platforms the engine supports

There is of course the option of outright purchasing a   X.0 version of Unity 3d for $1500 dollars. I'll add that in to a comparison to be as fair as I can.

1 year of Unity 3D = $900.00
1 year of Unreal = $228.00

Unity appears to do major releases at slightly more than 1 year intervals so lets call it 18 months?

18 months of Unreal =  $342.00
Full X.0 version of Unity = $1500.00

Now if you've ever taken accounting you know that an asset is something that has current and future value.   The full X.0 version of Unity 3D could be argued to be valuable for more than 18 months, but lets be super honest and ask if when Unity 5 comes out if I can live without the physical lighting model?  The answer is no I can't. I need physical lighting for my game to look good and I will have to purchase it. If its not Unity 5, then its going to be Unity 6 and some other feature and I'm in for another upgrade fee.

(Note: I know if you buy Unity 5 right now you get 4.x until the release; I'm actually in the opposite position - I bought Unity 4.0 six months ago and I'm reluctant to spend $600-750 more to upgrade on this engine putting my costs closer to $2100.00)

The point is Unreal's subscription model is so low it demands serious attention.

But we have that little royalty problem then don't we? 

Unreal wants 5% of gross revenue for any amount above $3000.00 you make in any quarter.

Gross revenue means before anyone else takes their cut.  So if you sold an app on iTunes for .99 cents; Apple usually takes   .30 cents before you the developer gets the leftover .70 cents.  Unreal wants their cut from the .99 cents, not your .70 cents.

But its time to get brutally honest folks! I hear lots of arguments against this royalty percentage as if its abusive, or really bad in some way.  I disagree.

Most indie games will make either close enough to nothing to be no difference, or a few will make a few thousand dollars and probably come in less than $12,000 in a year.  How many of you reading this have made an indie / self published game that made more than $3k in a quarter? 

I got close once, but I actually haven't passed it yet myself!  And its incredibly unrealistic to use hyper success stories as your litmus test for "if its worth it or not".   That's an idea I will call bullshit on!

In my judgment one absolutely must base the decision on how much you have made historically because odds are you are going to do somewhere in the same ballpark in the future. 

Yes we all hope to do much more, but your track record is more telling.

If this is the case the 5% revenue after your first 3K per quarter means absolutely no extra cost at all for Unreal to me!

But okay , okay, lets play the 'what if' game just one time. Because we all sit around dreaming of a 'hit' don't we?

Lets imagine I made my game in 1 year and I collected $75,000 dollars.  This is not hyper-sucess; but its a very nice number many indie dev's would crap their pants over.

For this example we are going to assume you are selling on Steam, and that Steam's cut is 30%.  (I've heard it ranges from 30-50% but I don't have a deal with them so Im just going with the low end here to guess.)

Desktop Only Release

Unity Breakdown:
Lease $900.00
Gross Sales: $75,000.00
Steam Cut:  $22,500.00
Your take home:  $52,500.00

Unreal breakdown:
Lease: $228.00
Gross Sales: $75,000.00
Steam Cut:  $22,500.00
Unreal Cut: $3750.00
Your Take home:  $48,750.00

So you make 7.2% less money if you used Unreal in this scenario.

If you had earlier decided it "must" be smarter to buy Unity outright for $1500.00 dollars then you would be at 6.1% difference.

Lets imagine however it takes two years to make your game.. well the numbers just start improving on Unreal's side.  And if you want to release on Android and iOS with Unity lets compare the full buy-out!

3 Platform Release Breakdown

Unity Breakdown:
Lease $2700.00  ($900 per year times 3 platforms)
Gross Sales: $75,000.00
Steam Cut:  $22,500.00
Your take home:  $49,800.00

Unreal breakdown:
Lease: $228.00
Gross Sales: $75,000.00
Steam Cut:  $22,500.00
Unreal Cut: $3750.00
Your Take home:  $48,750.00

Now we only a 2.1% difference in profits.

Conclusion


So in all honesty I think for me ; and probably a lot of indie's the ability to operate at a significantly lower out of pocket expense as I'm making my game is worth a lot more money than a mere 2% difference.

In fact a lot of Indie dev's can't afford the $2700.00 for the Unity thrown-down for one year lease!  If making your game would not be an option at all in that scenario for a lot of people.

In the end for me both Unity and Unreal are affordable as I have a nice day-job..and I can't side-line myself with mobile concerns at this phase so those costs don't come in the equation for me. It is going to come down to features and the maturity of those features in the end. 

Right now Unreal appears to be winning the feature war for my games needs - lighting being the #1 concern.
I'm going to continue moving forward in  Unreal for now until I hit my first proverbial 'brick wall'  as Unity 5 is not out yet (and I believe even when it does come out its lighting may not look quite as good as Unreal.  Unreal has been doing this a lot longer than Unity has afterall). 

I'm willing to change my mind but then again if its 6-8 months from now and I have a full third of my game built by then .. well it'll be a no brainer to finish up with Unreal.

See you next week!

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« Reply #13 on: May 24, 2014, 06:37:04 PM »

Blueprint's in Unreal Engine 4


This week was an interesting exploration in to the Blueprint capabilities of Unreal Engine 4.

If you've used PlayMaker for Unity 3D, or any visual graphing style scripting tool then you will have an understanding of what Blueprint in UE4 is about.

If not let me explain in brief.



Essentially what Blueprint is is a way to visually design your scripting of almost anything that might happen in your game including behaviors of objects, sounds, the player, or the environment.

The cool thing about visual graphing systems like this is that you can very quickly (once you learn the system) script out a solution.  The visual element can be very important as it lets you see the flow control theoretically better than in code.

In UE4 I would say the flow visualization is definitely better in than in code because the blueprint animates as it executes (if you have it open) so you can see exactly what its doing.

So my first task was to do a lot of video tutorials to learn about the blueprint system and I found this set of tutorials very helpful:





I watched the full introductory set and definitely recommend it.

Afterwards I decided to work on creating my movement script for the player in the game.

The basic Movement code utilizes WASD,  for directional movement and Q/E for looking left/right.

So after completing the Blueprint tutorials I was able to get the following movement blueprint together which worked perfectly:



The next evening I undertook to add in the left/right looking with Q and E and found that it was not working.

Specifically I was using SetActorRotation ; and was having problems so I also tried the very similar SetActorLocationandRotation -- which also didnt work.


Neither SetActorLocation or SetActorLocationandRotation appear to work at this time.



Obviously when I say I 'tried' it I tweaked it, removed it ,re-did it. I changed all the axises, tried one at a time and all those troubleshooting things you do when something doesn't work.

I also figured out how to select my player actor while the game was in game mode and inspect the rotation variables ; and saw that it was not working properly their either.

So I began searching for any issues or help and found someone was having a simliar problem in C++ style code, but since I was using the blueprint system I went ahead and posted a question on the UE4 Answer Hub  https://answers.unrealengine.com/questions/46385/setactorrotation-setactorlocationandrotation-issue.html  but the most useful thing to come of that so far is to find someone else has the same problem.

I'll admit I'm new to UE4 blueprints and I may be doing it wrong - that's a real possibility.

I decided to try a C++ approach instead as I definitely want to be able to use both C++ and Blueprint designs in my game. I've programmed 5 games in C++ using a library called AGK and I enjoyed that work quite a bit so I was looking forward to see what the UE4 approach would look like.

Also if it worked in C++ this might give more insight as to what was going wrong with the Blueprint?

I started off with 

, and found that I had not met the pre-requisite's which is you have to pull the source from Github.

So I watched this video:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=usjlNHPn-jo

And I started running in to some potential concerns about using UE4.

I want to stop here for a moment and say that I knew when I started trying UE4 that eventually I would come to a 'stuck' point -- it happens in every project that I do that I get stuck .  I'm not afraid of being stuck -- being stuck is when you learn the most, albeit very painfully usually. 

So I was (and am) willing to undergo learning pain but I also have to stop and realize: I'm a lone developer. choosing my engine has to be as smart of a choice as I can make. I have to do the code, make the models, texture the models, make the levels, do the AI, create an inventory system, create and put in the sounds, create a class system, create a procedural loot system .. the list goes on and on.  I have enough things to do that I need an engine that's going to do a fair bit of the heavy lifting for me!

In other words -- I don't need a library; I need a full featured engine!

Once Again Unity vs Unreal


So now I got my first stuck point I have to stop and take stock of what I know about UE4 and Unity and attempt to make a choice about which one is going to be the smarter choice for me to create The Rise of Dagon with.

The first  thing I learned is I would need to pull the source code and create my own branch to develop in C++ with UE4. Whenever Epic updated the source code I would have to merge their changes in to my code base.

Don't get me wrong I've worked in an environment with multiple code branches where merges occur and I have had to resolve changelists often enough but the thing is I'm not the one who has to manage all that most of the time at my work, there are two guys who do that full time.

In UE4 I'm concerned about the amount of maintenance and technical debt that I could incur - or alternatively force me to not take updates because of that debt. 

In the Unity world they do a lot to lower my concerns in this area. For the most part the scripts I write don't break in between Unity versions.  It's possible when Unity makes the cross between 4.x and 5.x that I could incur some technical debt but this should be a one time issue - the level I'm willing to deal with.

The second item is Blueprint in UE4 had a mediocre to poor showing for my first attempt.  Sure its powerful, very cool and shiny ; but it also appears to potentially be either buggy or young and still in need of polish? 

There's a fair amount of risk to my perception if Blueprint is not what it strives to be; this will mean constant problems for my development.  How far do I go dismissing Blueprint problems before I find myself really deep in Unreal and with a crippled product? Will I end up six months along and find out that perhaps these things aren't going to get addressed? 

I have no idea at this point but all of a sudden the price difference between Unreal and Unity start looking a little less important than knowing that my time is going to be spent making a game .. rather than finding bugs in Blueprint and not having my game work??

So I end this week feeling very mixed about what the right decision is. I don't want to give up on Unreal as I really like the engine, I feel like its a more technically accomplished engine ..  but I'm starting to feel like its also a little less 'super small indie' friendly. 

What are your thoughts about Unity vs Unreal at this point?
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« Reply #14 on: May 25, 2014, 10:27:38 AM »

Hey, disregarding the technical details, just wanted to add myslef to a list of people who would definately buy the game. Love the classic "grid-based" 1st person crawling, you've just made my day Sir.
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« Reply #15 on: May 25, 2014, 03:42:07 PM »

Hey, disregarding the technical details, just wanted to add myslef to a list of people who would definately buy the game. Love the classic "grid-based" 1st person crawling, you've just made my day Sir.
 Smiley

Cool thanks for checking in its nice to hear your positive comments!
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« Reply #16 on: May 31, 2014, 10:49:14 AM »

This weeks update focuses on creating proper prefabs and laying out levels in code. 

All the previous work shown has been manually positioned one piece at  a time. 

So now its time to start putting things together in a more formalized way that can be eventually turned in to a level creation algorithm and level saving / loading serialization.

The first task was to start making the prefabs that would be very specifically sized to allow the layout to occur programmatically .  That is to say for instance if I wanted to create a short hallway I could line up 3 'hallway' segments in a row placing them 5 units apart and have a 15 unit long hallway.

So in the first screenshot here I have constructed the first hallway prefab and then manually used the type-in values in the editor to place them exactly 5 units apart and as we can see they line up very nicely.



This test turned out nicely and proved that I was ready to try laying this out in code the next evening.

So I created a simple testdungeonroom class in C# the next evening and was able to lay out these hallways programatically seen in the screen shot below.




The next two days I spent working on more code to generate an algorithm to create a dungeon 'room' where I can pass parameters as to how big the room is in a X and Z axis ( its X and Z because Unity is retarded and does things in X/Z axis instead of X/Y axis but when in Rome they say ... )

I actually ran in to one unexpected issue when doing this ; which was the prefabs had all been constructed with the origin point in the bottom left.

When creating the room I used the same corner segement but rotate it 90, 180 or -90 degrees depending on which corner it will go in. 

Because the origin point was in the bottom left corner instead of the center it also rotated from that point and caused alignment issues.

I could have accomodated for that in code; but I also found that my first layout was 'too tight' and didn't look right.  I am able to adjust the camera FOV but even so it just didn't look right.

So I took an extra evening and tore the prefabs apart, made them bigger and re-centered the origin point to be the center of the prefab.

Finally we have a shot showing off the result of the weeks work which is 4 prefabs that contain origin in their center along with the first code-generated room!





This can now be used to take the next step in to generating dungeons. 

I would like to potentially have randomly generated dungeons for replay value but I do feel static dungeons allow for a much better constructed story and plot. 

I need to give more thought to how I want to proceed with all this and what is the best direction for the over-all game but for right now while in alpha prototype mode this gives me a baseline tool for getting a prototype dungeon in place and start building in more features in the next week.
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« Reply #17 on: May 31, 2014, 12:36:26 PM »

How would this compare to Legend of Grimrock? (which is also a modern revival of EOTB-style games)
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« Reply #18 on: May 31, 2014, 12:49:59 PM »

How would this compare to Legend of Grimrock? (which is also a modern revival of EOTB-style games)

Hi  bleezy thanks for the great question!

I see Legend of Grimrock as a 'bare bones' implementation of this style of game.

For similarities you can expect:
- first person
- grid based movement
- hack and slash style combat with tactical concerns about your placement while you fight.


For differences I plan on implementing features such as:

- An actual plot with quests.
- Side Quests that are optional
- NPC's that you can interact with (quest givers, merchants at minimum ; possibly more)
- Procedural Loot
- Procedural Monsters
- A more diverse selection of character races.
- A more diverse selection of character classes.

- NPC Faction/Reputation groups.  If you earn favor with a particular group you can expect them to give you more access & help. It will influence the end game also.  You will have to make a choice about who you will curry favor with as there are some opposing factions.

There is one other really huge feature that I am holding back on announcing because I need to be able to see how much of it I can implement before I start making promises I can't deliver on.  So over time look for further announcements.

Thanks!
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« Reply #19 on: May 31, 2014, 01:30:50 PM »

That sounds super cool, I loved Grimrock but I couldn't go back and play it twice.  A procedural version would be a lot of fun.
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