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[Greipur]

my 2 cents: i think the scale is fine as is. in absolute numbers, how many people actually consider this a problem? because there's always going to be a vocal minority asking for more "realism". if you're considering the change due to fear of losing your audience, that might be something to keep in mind.

I see your point, our last game Among Ripples (which was free) have had 400,000 downloads on Steam and only about 1000 reviews (thankfully mostly positive). So there's a huge discrepancy between people who play and people who talk about it. I myself am very vocal about games but I never make reviews. But, personally I think that if you see comments crop up more than say, 10 times and you start see threads about it on the Steam forum perhaps it's something more than just a vocal minority. As the community manager I tend to treat them as a poor man's marketing research. When I studied graphic design, typography etc. during school I remember a teacher said "If anyone of you feel that's something is odd with this text then one out of ten out there will think the same thing.". I think it's words to live by, we're all unique, but many thoughts are shared subconsciously at least.

Of course I shouldn't be listening to every person out there, it's good that you brought it up. We shouldn't pander needlessly! I think Jeff Vogel said some interesting things last year about it, and these words have been with me since then.

If you let too many loud voices into your head, it can drive you mad. Outside feedback is necessary, but you have to filter it. For me, ten sensible people are far more useful than 10000 internet randos.

And we've had our fair share of loud voices, the porridge should me warmer, it should be colder! The porridge looks exactly like the porridge I ate ten years ago, the porridge tastes too differently from the porridge I ate ten years ago! Etc. etc. That kind of feedback I just skip past nowadays, but I think this scaling thing is a reasonable concern, well artciulated by some of the fanbase as well. And it's not like I've had doubts myself, and I think that's what I tend to do, to follow intuition together with feedback.

I guess my problem is that I've been going at it (together with the rest of the team) for so long that it's hard to find a fresh perspective, so I guess it's more of "how" I should rather if I "should".

if you really wanted, you could use more and smaller characters a la the settlers series or you you replace the big characters with groups of small characters with an icon over them for easier readability, though that might end up looking more awkward than what you currently have.

anyway, great game, keep up the good work.  

Thank you for the tip and encouragement!

[io3 creations]

Though, I haven't played many games in this genre, my first impression was also that the people (and animals) looked "giants".  However, it was part of the visual style/theme of the game and looked good (though I'm partial to low poly-ish look and looking for such inspirations).  But this is obviously my subjective opinion.
Looking at the similar game images you've posted, some of them have a much closer resemblance to table top games.  Perhaps, the scale difference might be easier to ignore since people are already accustomed to that with tabletop games?

The Question of Scale
This is something that has been on my mind for some time, from time to time people on our forum or YouTube comments/reviewers etc. say that people in Crest are giants, and that it looks weird.

The first thing I would look at is, what is your vision for the game?  The second, since you are creating a commercial game (vs a personal hobby project where financial outcome can be ignored) you probably want to create a game that appeals to as many people as possible.  Since your game is in Early Access, is there a possiblity to ask people to fill out a survey (or just that one question) if the scale is an issue?  That might give you a better understanding of the true "scale" of the problem. (pun intended)   If indeed those numbers are small, then it'd easier to ignore those comments.

It is true that many others may also share what a few complain about.  But it's also true for the good parts.  If (many) people are playing interested in the game and keep playing it, then they either:
-like
-don't mind
-can ignore
certain features and keep playing  if they like other aspects of the game.

It's definitely a balancing act.

[Greipur]

It's definitely a balancing act.

Oh, for sure. And it's not like I will change the big people, little world look, just tweak it, it's just how I can't decide at the moment. Should I make the people as large as the ones in Total War? Should the buildings become smaller? Each of the games I showed at the last page all have different solutions, yet they share the same overall idea that units/characters are bigger than the world.

I'm pretty happy with how the game looks, but I still feel that it lacks that finishing touch. I've been brooding over things like this for a long time (which is my job as art director after all), and when certain comments pile up they sort of affirm that feeling. As such I've come to the decision to do something about it, not just to please a minority, but rather to make something good even greater. Think of it as craftman's pride or something.

For this difficult question I specifically wanted to turn to the TIGSource community, I want opinions from other devs, not if I should do it, but rather how I should do it. Of course if you see no problems then that's fine too, but I've already decided that I'll do something.

Thanks for the comment!

[io3 creations]

I see.  But wouldn't the how still depend on similar aspects: your vision, other's perception/complaints.  Or more specifically, what is your definition of going from good to great?  Is it when you like the visuals or perhaps when there are no "complaints" about them?


Speaking of scale and "giants", here's a painting http://www.morrisseauprints.com/prints.html I just came across today by Norval Morrisseau aka "Picasso of the North" - North American native artist.  There are a few more of his paintings some of which obviously deal with spirits and somewhat similar-ish themes as Crest: http://www.morrisseauprints.com/prints.html  And there's a longer list at Pinterest if interested in exploring more: https://www.pinterest.com/Custom_Brites/norval-morisseau-aboriginal/

[Greipur]

I see.  But wouldn't the how still depend on similar aspects: your vision, other's perception/complaints.  Or more specifically, what is your definition of going from good to great?  Is it when you like the visuals or perhaps when there are no "complaints" about them?

When you make experimental games I think there will always be complaints and people you can't please, I'm completely fine with this. As I said prior I listen to feedback when it resonates with me. We've had stuff on the forum like "So Godus didn't turn out that great, can't you make Crest into the game that Godus was supposed to be?" and to that I simply anwer with "No, we're doing something completely different.". It depends on if the feedback aligns with what we're aiming for.

Speaking of scale and "giants", here's a painting http://www.morrisseauprints.com/prints.html I just came across today by Norval Morrisseau aka "Picasso of the North" - North American native artist.  There are a few more of his paintings some of which obviously deal with spirits and somewhat similar-ish themes as Crest: http://www.morrisseauprints.com/prints.html  And there's a longer list at Pinterest if interested in exploring more: https://www.pinterest.com/Custom_Brites/norval-morisseau-aboriginal/

Thanks for the links!

[io3 creations]

When you make experimental games I think there will always be complaints and people you can't please, I'm completely fine with this. As I said prior I listen to feedback when it resonates with me.

So, if I understand correctly, it wasn't really for the complaints why you want to change things but rather because it doesn't resonate with you.  If so, then the how to change things that you are looking for would be ... up to you since you are the only one that knows when things are not just good but are the "best".  Am I getting closer?

[Greipur]

Sure, io3creations.





I've done three different scale ideas for ways Crest could look, if you agree with the premise that the scale should change, which one do you prefer? If you don't like any of them feel free to give me other suggestions.

You can contribute anonymously here if you like: https://goo.gl/forms/Sk44ThO2YXerxG343

[io3 creations]

Is the camera zoom changeable during the game or is it preset? 

Based on the three images, I prefer the first one (seems like the current setting). But having seen the other images, I wouldn't mind if the characters were a bit larger.

Could character (people, animals) height/size be added as an option?  One thing that would be fairly easy to customize is to make sure that walking looks good (i.e. no "skating on ice" like foot slipping) but there may be other animations/actions that might not be possible to adjust so easily.

[JobLeonard]

I think 2 is much too large, but 3 kind of hits that sweet spot of human models obviously being a token, because they're much too big to fit into the buildings.

Having said that, if you scale things up I think it becomes more important to avoid the clipping issues seen now

[Greipur]

Is the camera zoom changeable during the game or is it preset?

You can zoom out quite a bit.

Based on the three images, I prefer the first one (seems like the current setting). But having seen the other images, I wouldn't mind if the characters were a bit larger.

Ok, thanks for the feedback!

Could character (people, animals) height/size be added as an option?  One thing that would be fairly easy to customize is to make sure that walking looks good (i.e. no "skating on ice" like foot slipping) but there may be other animations/actions that might not be possible to adjust so easily.

Having scale up for the player to decide would basically leave them to have to tweak a key portion of the art direction, I don't think it's feasible from an art perspective. It also opens up the possibility of a lot of bugs, and with a procedural game there's enough of possibilities of that happening.

I think 2 is much too large, but 3 kind of hits that sweet spot of human models obviously being a token, because they're much too big to fit into the buildings.

Having said that, if you scale things up I think it becomes more important to avoid the clipping issues seen now

Ok, thanks. Why do you think it will become a bigger problem? Speaking of clipping it's pretty common in both Armello and Civilization 5. Personally I don't find that a problem in that kind of game with symbolic representation.



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Here's some more concept art for the time map!

[JobLeonard]

Well, if the token represents a group of humans in that area, it just feels weird to have different tokens stacked on top of each other.

Maybe "clipping issue" isn't the correct term; I think what I mean is that I think the actors (humans, animals, etc) should not walk through each other.

[Greipur]

Well, if the token represents a group of humans in that area, it just feels weird to have different tokens stacked on top of each other.

Maybe "clipping issue" isn't the correct term; I think what I mean is that I think the actors (humans, animals, etc) should not walk through each other.

Ah, then I understand better. It's tricky to fix (pathfinding and performance are key here), we'll see how it turns out.




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Finally done with all of the concept art for the underworld, these are just polished versions of stuff you've seen before so it needs no further comment I think. Though, the background is made with the same materials and lighting as I had in the Faith trailer. Instead of painting this by hand I did a crazy mashup instead.

[oldblood]

A little late to the party, but I'd also go with #3 on the scale question. I think bumping up the size a bit (without getting too drastic) would help. Ps. The underworld is looking great!

[JobLeonard]

That is one pretty underworld!

[Greipur]

Thanks for feedback and compliments. Number three seems to be the most popular option, I'll think we'll pursue that one.


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There's no more concept art for me to do and I'm grateful for that. I've started with The Chronicler model, just as a bonus I did an exaggerated animation mockup for how you can navigate in the underworld. Of course it'll be much slower in the game.

[io3 creations]

Is the camera zoom changeable during the game or is it preset?

You can zoom out quite a bit.

While using that much zoom probably won't be used often, increased people's height looks better when changing zoom from time to time depending on task/activity.

Here's some more concept art for the time map!

I like the spirals that start out thinner and increase gradually in width and so does the gap between them.  That way, you can avoid the issue of trees, characters having double contact with the spiral.  When those elements touch the spiral with their top, it looks like a "shortcut" in the timeline ~ e.g. as in Snakes and Ladders board game.

[Greipur]

Thanks io3 creations. We'll keep it in mind and try to avoid the Snakes and Ladders problem.


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The voting is over and most people wanted number 1 and number 3. Option 3 had a few more votes, and that's also the one that my gut is telling me is correct. So 3 it is! We'll update the scale in the coming month.

In other news Johannes is currently adding the distribution mechanic into the game again. We came to this conclusion that we needed more actions between the different followers in order to create a better sense of community.

Jesper is working on the word discovery feature, basically people will only have a handful of words in the beginning and as they discover their surroundings they will grow. Here's an early version of the GUI that accomodates this feature. The player can see which words are currently in the process of being discovered, each word needs to be "seen" a couple of times before the player can use it.

Christoffer has been making concept art for the children in Crest, this is part of our new overpopulation mechanic. The children won't be workers or followers but rather mouths to feed and followers to be, as such they have several stages before they're grown up. I remember fondly Knights and Merchants in this regard, they had stables/stud farms where you saw a foal grow up to a war horse. Or the cows in Stronghold, which started out as calves. In this regard the feedback in Crest will be similar.

Stronghold 1, Firefly Studios

And here's the actual concept art.

I'm currently working on modelling The Chronicler, here's some WIP images, from my work space and screenshot from Blender.

[JobLeonard]

Will you be able to make commandments for the children? "when too many children walk to the lions" if you want them to be eaten? (Basically the equivalent to The Sims' "pool without an exit ladder" murder)

[Greipur]

Will you be able to make commandments for the children? "when too many children walk to the lions" if you want them to be eaten? (Basically the equivalent to The Sims' "pool without an exit ladder" murder)

There's no plans for it right now, no. Children are multipliers for a follower, they can have one or several children, this increases how much food they need. And there's also the nurturing aspect that instead of followers being put to service instantly they will gradually come into society, if they are well nourished.

[JobLeonard]

Ah, to the little tykes will follow the adults around? That could make for a nice graphic trail effect, like a duck and her ducklings