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[Unplayables]

I told you they have a strategy, to pass as nice and feminist and hammer key political point to undermine the discourse from inside.

I didn't expect to receive such an attack. I'm not passing of as nice. I'm being myself.
I am taking a political position, yes, I think we need to be more critical and skeptical and focus on the things people say, rather than, attacking people personally.

Finally, I'm not trying to undermine discourse, I'm trying to stimulate it.

[Blambo]

snip

feminism isn't "we hate men". it's gender equality that comes from the perspective of women because that's who the inequality is affecting.

I agree. However I believe there are a lot of people who call themselves feminists who have the perspective that western society is heavily skewed to disadvantage women and as a result, the people who believe this behave very unfairly towards men.

--

In regards to #gamergate. There are a lot of feminists in #gamergate.
There are a lot of things coming to light that show that what we've been told about the zoey quinn situation isn't what we first believed it. Today multiple people were harassed simply for supporting #gamergate on twitter. Someone was threatened at home. People are receiving strange calls and packages. Escapistmagazine got a ddos attack. Someone's boss was repeatedly called until she fired her employee. Simply for supporting #gamergate.

I guess it makes sense if you see #gamergate as a violent, agressive, harassing movement, but that's not what the movement is about at all; that's only how it's being painted.

But I suspect once the things that have been uncovered reach a broader media, that you will possibly rethink your current views.

uhhhhhHHHHHHH i don't think that a lot of self described feminists are feminists in good faith, nor do they understand or read a lot about feminism/gender equality.

and with regards to the harassment thing, that's obviously pretty shitty but to discredit feminists or their supporters because of it is kind of hypocritical if you also want to support gamergate, since gamergate is mostly really extreme right wing reactionaries who STARTED with harassment and death threats. it got coopted by people who either don't get that they're subscribing to a movement with shitty origins or are just mean spirited. they then take the reaction to the "movement"'s bullshit, retcon the reason why it's happening to "oh they just hate men and nerds for no reason and that makes THEM the oppressors". it just doesn't make sense.

it's weird that people emphasize the mean language of SJWs and completely ignore the inundation of death threats and harassment coming from gamergate. like it's hard to take you seriously when you do that.

[gimymblert]

It's unplayable. If you are genuine I can't tell so whatever, you just happen to bring the same point as many clone on many forums since #gamergate evolved, I can't tell, I will be suspicious. I monitor this evolution since the beginning I simply don't care by that time.

[Blambo]

gimmy i kind of have a problem with you not giving him the benefit of the doubt, because there's a lot of people who take this stance simply because they're misinformed.

i hope that's the case with unplayables and lee.

i hope.

please.

[gimymblert]

Well take the turn, I currently fed up to play the reasonable side, I pass the flag on this one. You have no idea how gamergate affect me, I had to consider staying and leaving making game because of this shit. It deeply depressed me. The things is they fire everything at us, not just opposition but dishonesty and any strategy possible, like polluting the discourse by looking like they espouse the discourse to better backstab you. I'm just fed up.

[Blambo]

yeah it sucks. i just choose not to take most people from gamergate seriously.

[gimymblert]

Notice you have to combine that with the fergusson events, happen at the same time more or less, it did show how shitty people are and they are not hiding it anymore, they are there to bring you down. Neither are done or solve either, and hint at a general degrading in favor of harasser.

[Unplayables]

uhhhhhHHHHHHH i don't think that a lot of self described feminists are feminists in good faith, nor do they understand or read a lot about feminism/gender equality.

and with regards to the harassment thing, that's obviously pretty shitty but to discredit feminists or their supporters because of it is kind of hypocritical if you also want to support gamergate, since gamergate is mostly really extreme right wing reactionaries who STARTED with harassment and death threats. it got coopted by people who either don't get that they're subscribing to a movement with shitty origins or are just mean spirited. they then take the reaction to the "movement"'s bullshit, retcon the reason why it's happening to "oh they just hate men and nerds for no reason and that makes THEM the oppressors". it just doesn't make sense.

it's weird that people emphasize the mean language of SJWs and completely ignore the inundation of death threats and harassment coming from gamergate. like it's hard to take you seriously when you do that.

If you're curious about hearing people who support #gamergate, there's a livestream here: LINK REMOVED
They're currently talking about how they're dissapointed that they can't find people to openly argue against #gamergate.

I agree that it's shitty to discredit feminists because #gamergate supporters are being harassed. That is a very valid and very important point. The reason I bring it up, is because #gamergate is being discredited for exactly the same thing.

I said before that I agree that both sides fling shit, so please don't say that I'm ignoring the harassment of feminists who are against gamergate. But say this is coming from gamergate is unfair; if people are harassing they have no place in the #gamergate movement. That's not what it's about and repeatedly called out.

Eh.. sorry I said it'd be my last post eh? My apologies, I believed it at the time.

Finally you believe that people who call themselves feminist are saying that in bad faith. Well I can't prove it, that's for sure. I can only say that I'm a feminist. My two exes with whom I have good contact are feminists. My current girlfriend is a pretty political feminist.

Although I admit that these (including me) have all been sex positive feminists, whereas most anti gamergate feminists seem to be sex negative feminists, so maybe that's somehow part of the divide, I don't know.

edit: my bad, links aren't allowed?

[gimymblert]

Lol at sex negative anti gamergate lol

https://soundcloud.com/idlethumbspodcast/the-classic-alien-form
Anita lied in that video SHE is a gamer, listen at how she drops some mad games knowledge.

[Unplayables]

Well take the turn, I currently fed up to play the reasonable side, I pass the flag on this one. You have no idea how gamergate affect me, I had to consider staying and leaving making game because of this shit. It deeply depressed me. The things is they fire everything at us, not just opposition but dishonesty and any strategy possible, like polluting the discourse by looking like they espouse the discourse to better backstab you. I'm just fed up.

If you have the energy still, I would love to hear that.
If not, you can also send me a message (later, if you like), because I'm genuinely interested to hear.
And not in a "I want to prove you wrong" kinda way. I'm just interested in hearing, without judging. This is the first hint you've given about how it's affected you and if you put a little faith in my good intentions, I promise you won't regret it.  

[Blambo]

If you're curious about hearing people who support #gamergate, there's a livestream here: LINK REMOVED
They're currently talking about how they're dissapointed that they can't find people to openly argue against #gamergate.

this is why i can't take this more seriously than i would a bunch of teenagers acting entitled.

also why you probably removed that link buddy.

I agree that it's shitty to discredit feminists because #gamergate supporters are being harassed. That is a very valid and very important point. The reason I bring it up, is because #gamergate is being discredited for exactly the same thing.

I said before that I agree that both sides fling shit, so please don't say that I'm ignoring the harassment of feminists who are against gamergate. But say this is coming from gamergate is unfair; if people are harassing they have no place in the #gamergate movement. That's not what it's about and repeatedly called out.

well you don't exactly decide who's in the gamergate whatever. again it originated as a campaign of harassment and hate. if you have serious issues to bring up, please don't coopt something that started as an outlet for idiots with delusions of grandeur.

Finally you believe that people who call themselves feminist are saying that in bad faith. Well I can't prove it, that's for sure. I can only say that I'm a feminist. My two exes with whom I have good contact are feminists. My current girlfriend is a pretty political feminist.

Although I admit that these (including me) have all been sex positive feminists, whereas most anti gamergate feminists seem to be sex negative feminists, so maybe that's somehow part of the divide, I don't know.

well...then i don't know why you intend to be centrist on this issue. gamergate's mostly been about hate and "get your politics out of my video games".

[Unplayables]

I didn't remove the link. A moderator did. I just edited to explain that.

I don't appreciate the continual assumption that I'm arguing in bad faith, but I guess it's hard for you to see that I'm honest and straigth with you when you can't see my face and the emotion on it.

The chat may go crazy, but I linked it for the radio discussion, not the chat. Which you might remember was civil and intelligent. But no matter. We don't need to agree.  If you argue that #killallmen is an ok tag for women who are harassed, then why is that behaviour not ok for people that just got censored, insulted, fired?

Either way, I'm glad that at least we got to discuss this a little and you have given me food for thought.

[MorganRamsay]

The original poster asked questions about diversity in the workforce, not feminism, sexism, misogyny, equality, or #GamerGate.

"What big games were created by women and minorities? How did their being in those groups affect development, especially with regard to the opportunities available to them? If there aren't many people in these groups, do you think that's a problem to be solved?" (rewrote)

If you're not answering these questions, you're looking for Women as Background Decoration: Part 2. This isn't Part 3.

[Neo]

Speaking more broadly of minorities issues, the problem could be more complicated than simply being inclusive to anyone and everyone.

There are more barriers that don't allow a large group of people to get into game development because making games is simply a big privilege, it may not be a big deal to get into it if you were born in a first world country or stable family, but for people living in underdeveloped countries it is difficult, in my case I'm relatively privileged because i can now afford to have a decent computer and internet access which I didn't have a year or 2 ago, these may seem to be a given nowadays but in a poor country these are privileges that not everybody can have. I've always been into games, probably around 11-13 more than ever(as a gamer), perhaps I could have gotten started earlier if I had the chance, but that's the thing, I didn't have the opportunity, I didnt have internet access or a computer I could freely use, or a mentor, or a friend that was into that, none of that, making a videogame seemed to be some sort of mysterious black magic, and that's a problem, most people don't have the chance and the majority of them are minorities.

Besides this, if you live in an unstable economic situation the last thing you'll be thinking about is making video games, they take a lot of time and you just can't get any benefits from it in the short/mid term, you would rather put your energy into helping your family and yourself by getting a job or whatever, food on the table comes first than any of your hobbies.

By the way in poorer countries playing/making games(not a lot of difference from the perspective of people whom never touched one) is more stigmatized, if this was hard enough for a boy then imagine how difficult it would be for a girl.

Gee.. I have a lot of respect for women and other minorities that get into games, it's tough out there.

[BarchKing]

One scene you guys who are interested in this stuff of emerging minority groups is the Brazilian indie scene, its a good example for those curious of emerging scenes. to have the charestics of being able to create community's that are quite like our own. eg forums/events/mentors etc. Which I have a few theorys why. it could be anything from brazil unstable economic politics from 1980-2002 which would of swayed many people away from it or just the wider effect of the english language being taught within brazilian culture as apposed to Portuguese.

Solutions for more minoritys getting in could range from anything from notch funding Ghana to build a computer industry, releasing your game in multiple languages (remi did a good article on the problems of a english dominated software language base), providing economic stability for countrys.

some of these solutions are way out there though, I dont think even the mighty barch the prince of poets could stop the western sahera conflict and though I might put alot of effort into it it is not a good use of my time. The simple ones are that tigsource members could do with not much effort are simple. Making translations of your work, and answer questions from people that you localize it for to tell them about the programming myths and how easy it is. You would have a direct influence on those peoples lives, and their childrens lives. thats a simple solution.

it may seem strange but while some children in libya might have a translated copy of minecraft, they wouldnt understand notches blog about his story and his life as easy as we do. So even then.

there are hard solutions that give minor results
and their are easy solutions that give major results

both give results, so you can help in minor ways that could potentially allow cultures to share works with eachother.

EDIT : on a flip note I remembered that cavestory was fan translated which allowed Japanese indie games to be enjoyed with western indiescene localisation and translation man 

[jamesprimate]

that is (another) really good point (and you may have just convinced me to take a few courses of action actually.)

from my own experiences, these non-english scenes are REALLY passionate. ive gotten a number of emails from Polish, Arabic, Spanish, Japanese and French-language gaming communities asking if we would be willing to localize to their language, offering a range of help from free translation services to showing which marketplaces are popular within that scene, etc., just because they want their community to have access to a wider range of cool new indie games.

I'll admit that its more than a little overwhelming to think about localizing to all these different languages when just getting your damn game to steam is an epic task, but that's a bit near-sided. A global community benefits everyone.

[Tazi]

feminism isn't "we hate men". it's gender equality that comes from the perspective of women because that's who the inequality is affecting.

It's not "we hate men", but some of the feminists have no problem to go there. For example this was one of the starting reasons of "#gamergate".
Why? Quinn had a post back then, where she explained that cheating should be considered as rape, which is pretty harsh, but okay, I can understand why someone gets to that conclusion. Later she cheated his own partner, and had no concern about how she just committed something that she previously labaled as immoral and criminal. That pretty much indicates that she has a double standard where it's okay for females to cheat their partner, but forbidden for males.
What's even more sad, neither of the sides seemed to point that out. The most part of the anti-Zoe crowd just made stupid memejokes about 5 burgers and fries, and basically harrased her, instead of criticizing her views, which led to the pro-Zoe crowd to dismiss the whole thing as sexist harrasment, in a case where the crizicized person's gender shouldn't even count. (in fact, it should never count)


There are other feminists like that, some even more extreme. Like the ones who claimed that there should be special tax paid by men only, because of their past crimes in history against women. Now I see the logic, but why don't go further a bit and fix all the other things like that? Like, we should sell all white americans as slaves. Or what about germans or russians? All the genocide they did in WWII, I'm sure we could think up something for them...
That would be the real social justice.

Hell no! You can't solve social issues by oppressing people.

Now I don't wanna quote you a platitude, but it's true, there's only one thing that can dismiss hatred...

[Unplayables]

that is (another) really good point (and you may have just convinced me to take a few courses of action actually.)

from my own experiences, these non-english scenes are REALLY passionate. ive gotten a number of emails from Polish, Arabic, Spanish, Japanese and French-language gaming communities asking if we would be willing to localize to their language, offering a range of help from free translation services to showing which marketplaces are popular within that scene, etc., just because they want their community to have access to a wider range of cool new indie games.

I'll admit that its more than a little overwhelming to think about localizing to all these different languages when just getting your damn game to steam is an epic task, but that's a bit near-sided. A global community benefits everyone.

The language thing... that's actually a very good thing of you to mention. I've seen a lot of indy's use volunteers to help translate their game. I guess there's also value in having people translate some of the things you write about game design choices. MMmm interesting.

[gimymblert]

http://everydayfeminism.com/2014/09/explain-feminism-non-threatening-way/

[Faust06]

There's more than one brand of feminism, so Mr Webster's definition suffices. The vast majority don't purport imaginary ideas they're often accused of, like man-hatin'.