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[policedanceclub]

Am I the only one who likes MDickie because his games are fun?

[ஒழுக்கின்மை (Paul Eres)]

I'm pretty sure it's natural to get mad at things that suck, especially when the creator won't admit that it sucks.

No, it's not natural, it's a defense mechanism. It's just as egoistic as MDickie. To feel good through putting others down is no better than thinking you're the greatest. When others actually do have problems, the correct emotional reaction is *pity* or *compassion*, not *anger*.

Am I the only one who likes MDickie because his games are fun?

I like them because they're good games too. They aren't polished, they aren't pretty, they aren't very well tested because he unfortunately has social problems and thinks he doesn't need playtesters and seldom takes advice, but they're good games.

[Matt Thorson]

I'm pretty sure it's natural to get mad at things that suck, especially when the creator won't admit that it sucks.

No, it's not natural, it's a defense mechanism. It's just as egoistic as MDickie. To feel good through putting others down is no better than thinking you're the greatest. When others actually do have problems, the correct emotional reaction is *pity* or *compassion*, not *anger*.

You sort of contradicted yourself.  It is a natural defense mechanism.  Humans are evolutionarily trained to travel in groups and exclude outsiders.  Pity and compassion are reserved for "insiders", for the good of the tribe.  Humans are very good at dehumanizing those they have little in common with and it's perfectly natural.

Not to mention, MDickie doesn't seem to have an affliction as you describe it.  He just seems to be disrespectful to the indie scene.  It's hard to pity someone whose "problem" is insulting you.

But regardless, I'm not really all that angry at him.  I'm just saying that his self-proclaimed stardom puts me off playing his games.  They might be masterpieces for all I know, but even if they were I doubt I could enjoy them for what they are now that I know the way he talks about himself.  I can't really enjoy the 3D Ninja Gaiden games because of what the lead designer has said about some other developers either.  It just gets to me when artists disrespect other artists.  It cheapens their art for me and I find it hard to relate to it at all (even if I would have before knowing).

Indeed, life is too short for resentment.

[ஒழுக்கின்மை (Paul Eres)]

That depends on what you consider natural. I consider defense mechanisms to be maladaptions, and hence unnatural, even though they are common. As an anlogy, lead poisoning is unnatural because humans weren't meant to live in close proximity to lead. But it's a common thing too, because it's what happens when you mix humans and lead.

I don't think this is an instance of disliking someone who doesn't fit in, I think the anger comes from elsewhere. You're right that if its source is that he doesn't fit in with the rest of the group that the anger would be natural, but I don't think that is its source. I think its source is that he reminds people how much of a failure they themselves are, and the anger misdirected anger at oneself.

I do think he has an affliction: being unable to relate to others is an affliction. It causes many people to isolate themselves from society. Thankfully it doesn't prevent him from creating things of value to (some) others, but it is still a thing that hurts him.

[Valter]

I'm pretty sure it's natural to get mad at things that suck, especially when the creator won't admit that it sucks.

No, it's not natural, it's a defense mechanism. It's just as egoistic as MDickie. To feel good through putting others down is no better than thinking you're the greatest. When others actually do have problems, the correct emotional reaction is *pity* or *compassion*, not *anger*.

Like YMM said, it's disrespectful. If he knows about more influential indie developers like Nifflas and Pixel, and he still decides to claim to be the "most influential man in Indie gaming ever", then he's arrogant, and that's totally deserving of my anger. If he isn't aware of other more influential developers, that's ignorance, and that still makes him deserving of my hatred and contempt.

I was willing to just forget about him, but whenever anybody says "I'm the best ___ ever", warning bells go off in my head. 'Cause that's either borderline megalomania, or just blatant idiocy. I'd rather you let the fans decide how good the game is, because no matter how their prejudices work, they're probably going to be more impartial to your game than you are.

[ஒழுக்கின்மை (Paul Eres)]

Nobody's arguing that he isn't arrogant. I just don't think it's a good idea to be angry at arrogant people, I think it's a better idea to realize that although their priorities are messed up and they're self-absorbed, they're people too, and even though they have flaws, we all do.

I don't think it's true that Nifflas and Pixel are more influential than MDickie, honestly. He's been around way longer than those two have, and has made way more games, and his games are arguably just as good. I'd put him at least at the same level as those two. But I agree that it's arrogant if he were to say something like "Nifflas and Pixel are like nothing next to me", even if it's true. I don't think he's actually said anything like that, though. Have you read his Iceman Thaws blog entry?

[Gr.Viper]

Is "making (good) games" and "being influential" the same thing?

[ஒழுக்கின்மை (Paul Eres)]

Of course not, but he was talking about influence so I talked about it.

And going back to what I was saying earlier, the indie games scene is a big place. Nifflas and Pixel are of course *locally* more influential than MDickie is, among the people who post on this forum. But *globally* among all indie game developers the influence evens out and he may have more.

To me, Pixel hasn't really done anything innovative, he's just really good at polishing retro stuff. He isn't very consistent though: he made one really great game (Cave Story) but the rest of his games are kind of average. His shooter game was even pretty boring, although it had some nice polish to it. And he's influential in that his games have inspired a bunch of Cave Story clones, and a resurgence of metroidvania games, yes. But that's an influence I think I'd personally have been better off without.

Nifflas is more innovative, but I preferred Seiklus to Knytt and he even admitted that Knytt was heavily influenced by Seiklus. Still, he makes very pretty games, Within a Deep Forest was very innovative within the platformer genre, so props to him for taking the platformer genre where others are too afraid to take it. But I don't really think he's been that influential: how many other people have taken the direction he and Clysm's Seiklus have gone in and ran with it? How many other people have made games which focus on atmosphere and feeling instead of gameplay mechanics? They exist, but not that many, really.

MDickie on the other hand is hugely influential in the subgenre of sports indie games and wrestling indie games. If you play any indie sports games, a lot of them feel modeled on MDickie games -- there are a ton of team manager games for instance. Which isn't an insignificant field in some quarters. MDickie also has tens of thousands of fans, and his games have sold in the thousands, which is very successful as shareware indie games go. Of course, most of those sales are to wrestling game fans, which aren't really my cup of tea either. His more experimental games like The You Testament and Wrecked are very artistic, but I'm not sure they're that influential, because not that many people have played them, it's his sports and wrestling games that are the most popular.

[Fuzz]

Pretty sure he's being at least a little facetious.  I mean the description of The You Testament on his site is rigorously descriptive down to all the weirdness that make his games entertaining in the first place.

Consider that

is an official video for the game (watch the end).

Life is too short for resentment!

I love this trailer:

It's the Jesus matrix! But seriously, that idea of revealing how the game's graphics were made as a story element seems pretty cool and innovative to me. Of course he's not the best indie developer ever, but he doesn't care what people think of him and he does whatever he wants. Really, people should give him more respect.

To me, Pixel hasn't really done anything innovative, he's just really good at polishing retro stuff. He isn't very consistent though: he made one really great game (Cave Story) but the rest of his games are kind of average. His shooter game was even pretty boring, although it had some nice polish to it. And he's influential in that his games have inspired a bunch of Cave Story clones, and a resurgence of metroidvania games, yes. But that's an influence I think I'd personally have been better off without.

I agree that Guxt wasn't all that good, but Glasses is great. The gameplay itself wasn't particularly interesting, but the story made it awesome. A spaceship steals a princess. It is up to a nerdy guy to catch his glasses (which are falling from the sky) and get a high enough score to unlock a boss fight with the spaceship and save the princess. I love Glasses.

[Valter]

Nobody's arguing that he isn't arrogant. I just don't think it's a good idea to be angry at arrogant people, I think it's a better idea to realize that although their priorities are messed up and they're self-absorbed, they're people too, and even though they have flaws, we all do.

Ok, that clears that up. In that case, it comes down to whether or not you view arrogance as a worthy qualifier for contempt.

I was more affronted by his claim that he's "the best/most influential ____ ever!". That kind of statement always sets me off. I'm not nearly as interested in discussing what I am and am not allowed to get mad at.

[Anthony Flack]

Hatred and contempt; eeek. Mild amusement is a more appropriate response.

[ஒழுக்கின்மை (Paul Eres)]

I was more affronted by his claim that he's "the best/most influential ____ ever!". That kind of statement always sets me off. I'm not nearly as interested in discussing what I am and am not allowed to get mad at.

Oh? I think that as interesting as MDickie is, this common reaction to him is far more interesting. I understand that it might not be as interesting to people who have that reaction as it is to people who don't, but it's a bit interesting to people who don't.

[Problem Machine]

And he's influential in that his games have inspired a bunch of Cave Story clones, and a resurgence of metroidvania games, yes. But that's an influence I think I'd personally have been better off without.

You'd rather those people didn't make games at all than make games you don't want to play?

[ஒழுக்கின்மை (Paul Eres)]

No, I think you might be misreading that. I meant that I'd rather not see indie games go in the direction of solely retro remakes and making games that focus around nostalgia for bygone days, with a focus on pixel art and scan lines and double jumps. People can and should make the games they like to play, and I do like to play Cave Story and metroidvanias, I didn't mean that I don't like them. But I do think it's a bad thing when there's such a focus on looking backwards rather than looking ahead, and where the supposed pinnacle of achievement in the indie game scene is to make a game that plays much like SNES games did.

[ஒழுக்கின்மை (Paul Eres)]

Also, if it'd help my case, I should note that I myself have made retro-themed games, here are two examples:

http://studioeres.com/games/alphasix
http://studioeres.com/games/fedora

So it's not that I dislike them or hate playing them or anything, I love them just as much as the next guy. I just really don't think they should be the direction independent games is headed in. They're okay once in a while, but it's the games that move us forward and try out new things that really matter in the long run, not the games that look back and replicate what worked in the past.

[Problem Machine]

People make the games that interest them. I'd rather play something derivative and heartfelt than 'innovative' and hollow. I tend to agree with the take that Jon Blow had on this in one of his lectures: Innovation is great because it widens the possible field of expression in games, but it's not the end goal. The chances of a very innovative game being truly great are low because it's aiming for an unknown target. If people want to fall back upon established tools and tropes in order to express themselves more perfectly, I wholeheartedly encourage that. If people want to be innovative, likely at the expense of making a quality game, then I encourage that too. These are both necessary if we're going to achieve the goal of making meaningful games.

[ஒழுக்கின்மை (Paul Eres)]

I still think you're misinterpreting, I'm not saying innovative games at the cost of quality are a good idea, or that people should make games they hate. I'm unsure how you can believe that someone could seriously advocate any of those ideas. What you just said is kind of obvious and I wouldn't disagree with anything in it.

I meant more that Cave Story sort of set the tone for what people are aiming at when they make indie games, and that without its existence there would not today be such a focus on making retro games. In other words, yes, people should make the kinds of games they want to make, but the kinds of games people want to make come from somewhere, not from some idiosyncratic black well, and that one of the biggest sources of that is Cave Story.

Counteracting that of course is that it's often the game that got many people involved in independent games in the first place -- many of the people on this forum would have never heard of indie games and would still be playing Halo or whatever if Cave Story didn't exist, so one positive effect of it was that it did draw new people in. It's just that it drew them in in such a way that it set the tone of what people thought of when they thought of indie games or making an indie game.

[Problem Machine]

That's my point exactly though; it's not a matter of making Cave Story influenced games or making not-Cave Story influenced games. For many people, their status as game creators is inseparable from creating games influenced by Cave Story. I don't think that you actually believe that you'd rather people wouldn't make games than that they make Cave Story derivative games, but my point is that a for many of those people if they weren't making those games, those particular games that Cave Story made them want to make, they wouldn't be making games.

[ஒழுக்கின்மை (Paul Eres)]

But I didn't say I'd rather people not make games than make metroidvanias -- all I said was that I think it's a bad trend and I hope indie games get over the retro obsession eventually. I was afflicted by it myself so I know firsthand how it feels and how much it can limit you. I think it'll happen, I just don't know how long it'll take.

[Problem Machine]

I think it's a bad trend

It's a bad trend that people are being inspired to make games?