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[nnyei]

I meant to comment on this devlog for a while now and somehow never got around to it, but I guess now is a good time as ever.

That must have been an extremely difficult decision to completely overhaul the entire project, but if that's what you want to do, then I applaud you for that courage and wish you the best of luck with this revamped project!

May I just ask a couple of questions? Are you proficient in the language or are basically playing it by ear? (I'm mostly asking because whenever I download an app for learning vocabulary, I always end up uninstalling it because I keep catching mistakes or inaccuracies that make me lose all faith in the whole thing...) What level of proficiency are you targeting? Vocabulary ranging from N5 to N1? Will this game just teach vocabulary or are you also including expressions, example sentences, and/or compounds like yojijukugo?

[oahda]

Good choice of new concept for the game!

— A linguist and a game developer.

The world needs more stuff like this.

[Zizka]

@Princessa:
Thanks. It's actually a concept I had worked on a long, long time ago (over 5 years to be exact). It was called Slimongo by then (Slime + Nihongo). I dropped it because it was too ambitious.

@nnyei:
Hello nnyei,

May I just ask a couple of questions? Are you proficient in the language or are basically playing it by ear? (I'm mostly asking because whenever I download an app for learning vocabulary, I always end up uninstalling it because I keep catching mistakes or inaccuracies that make me lose all faith in the whole thing...)

I lived in Japan for a short while (about 4 months) but I had studied before going there. I also lived in China for about 3 years. So I'm well accustomed to the Chinese characters in both languages. I doubt some inaccuracies could slip by considering it's pretty basic stuff. Also, keep in mind that the game teaches vocabulary which is harder to misrepresent than if you just targeted individual, out of context kanji (which, from my experience, is at times vague and not really recommended). There isn't anything audio here, it's just text, so I won't be mispronouncing anything or even attempting to.

What level of proficiency are you targeting? Vocabulary ranging from N5 to N1? Will this game just teach vocabulary or are you also including expressions, example sentences, and/or compounds like yojijukugo?

I want to go for an episodic format. I really think there's no better way to approach this. On my end, I can get something out in a fairly short time since I have a lot of the graphics done already. For players, they can choose to go for the later episodes if the first ones turn out to be too easy for them.

As far as the vocabulary is concerned, the first episode will be for false-beginners. I want everyone to feel welcome to start learning vocabulary. I find that it's a very difficult task when learning a language. You can have a sound understanding of grammar and yet have trouble to understand/communicate because you have no vocab.

No expressions or example sentences at all. It wouldn't adapt well to the concept and it's not what I'm going for. This is a vocabulary building game, that's it. In a way, it's also a typing game in the sense that the faster you type the Japanese words, the more words you can link for combos. But that's certainly not the priority.

My goal is to make the vocabulary accessible without having to learn the kana which is why answers to words use romaji. This means that anyone who starts the game can start learning words right away.

As far as the actual words are concerned, every word will be selected based on their high frequency. The words learned at the beginning will be the most used ones (highest frequency words). This means that you can actually learn words which are useful on a day-to-day basis as opposed to force yourself to learn obscure/useless words just for the sake of it. 

I want to reach in for people who want to be able to play JRPG, watch Anime and read Manga in their original versions for one thing.

I think this makes STX "superior" to other apps in the sense that newcomers won't be put off with learning the kana out of context but actually get right down to vocab right away.

I think this should answer your questions. 

[oahda]

What's the default reading of kanji in isolation with no context from surrounding characters BTW?

In case you're ever unsure about anything, BTW, there's always the "Omniglot fan club" language group on Facebook where you can confirm things with natives who hang out there.

[Zizka]

If I understand your question correctly, you should lookup "kun" and "on" readings of kanjis online, Princessa. It'd be pretty long to go through it right here but there are plenty of great article online about it! 

Thanks for the ref!

[nnyei]

Thank you for the detailed anwser, Zizka. I gather that I'm not your target audience for this project, which I personally find a bit disappointing for obvious reasons, but that's totally okay and by no means a fault of the game. I wish you good luck and I'll still follow this devlog!

What's the default reading of kanji in isolation with no context from surrounding characters BTW?

I can answer that. Kanji in isolation are usually* read in their kun-yomi (Japanese Reading) unless they don't have a kun-yomi, in which case they are read in their on-yomi (Chinese Reading).

[*there are always exceptions. 強 for example, if anyone's wondering. (I can elaborate, but this comment is already getting way too long.)]

For example:

Take for example the kanji 春 (spring). In isolation with no context, it's read "haru" (that's its kun-yomi). But if it's strung together with another kanji, it usually* defaults to being read as "shun" (its on-yomi). For example the word 春秋 (spring and fall) would be read as "shunjuu".

[*there are always exceptions.]

If a kanji has no kun-yomi, for example 意 (has many meanings, "feelings, thoughts, meaning") it's always read in its on-yomi. In this case "i". "i" is its only pronounciation.

Kanji that have only one reading are fairly rare. I'm not sure if I want to give it a percentage, but it certainly feels like only 5% of the kanji I've learned have one reading. That percentile is most likely false, but it certainly feels that way. (There are also kanji that only have a kun-yomi, but those are even rarer.) Usually, you come across kanji with multiple readings, and how it's read depends on its context. Whether it's used as a verb, a noun, as a compound with another kanji etc. I'm usually happy when I only have to learn 3 readings for a kanji.

And names are an entirely different beast.

ETA: sniped by Zizka. XD But yeah, that's the gist of it.

[Zizka]

Well, I'm actually not sure what supposed to be obvious  . You were hoping for something more difficult? For sentences?

Anyways, wait and see. It's a bit premature to be disappointed just yet I think.  I do want to have challenges for the more experimented players. Not sure it would be enough to challenge really advanced learners however.

[nnyei]

Ah, sorry for being unclear. I just meant to say that I'm disappointed because I didn't feel like I was the target audience, and because of that I couldn't look forward to the game. That was what I was trying to say. And yeah, I'd personally like something more advanced. I still feel like your primary target audience are beginners because, sure, if you teach vocabulary like "egg" or "frying pan", you don't need example sentences. But the more advanced you get, the more often you come in contact with words that require you to look deeper into some things.

I'll give you concrete examples: how are you going to handle words like かける that are bursting at the seams with definitions? How are you going to convey the big difference between 始める and 始まる without examples? The difference between 差し掛かる and 近寄る? In which situation exactly do you use 手数 and how is it different in tone from 面倒くさい? You'll never know how to use 勝手 properly if you don't look at examples because English doesn't have a fitting equivalent without going into a somewhat awkward description. You can see that I'm already getting into the nitty-gritty here, and maybe I'm cherry picking stuff to hard, but that's one reason why I tend to find these vocabulary or kanji flashcard games/apps lacking. You might find yourself saying "that's not up to me to teach" or "this is outside of the game's scope", which is perfectly fine of course, but it's not what I personally want.
(Not that you have to address what I want in any way. Also, don't feel like you have to answer or address any point in this paragraph; I just want you to maybe think about some problems you might run into and if you even want to address them.)

A couple of day ago I came across the vocabulary 管轄, and I looked up the translation, but felt like I still didn't have a good grasp of the word, so I looked at a couple of example sentences. That word is, relatively speaking, fairly clean-cut, but I still felt better with a little practical example. Maybe that's just me, but I feel like examples can go a long way.

That thing aside, let's just pretend for a moment that I'm completely happy with how you handled everything else and now I'm playing your finished game. And let's pretend the content of your game is equially distributed between beginner, intermediate, and advanced learner in a beautiful 1/3 split. Assuming I'm an advanced learner, 2/3 of the game would either be a grindfest, or if you've implemented some kind of content skipping method, I'd only get to appreciate 1/3 of the game.
Now, I have to admit that I don't know how most other games or apps handle this because I only get apps that target or incorporate my proficiency level (I have yet to find a game that does that) and I don't feel like investing time or money when I'm not sure if the game/app has enough content for me, so I don't know how that's usually handled or if developers just shrug and primarily address beginners because that's usually your biggest demographic, but how would you handle that? Learning games or apps are special in that sense that not everyone who bought your product starts on the same page, and that might be a problem if you stick to a game-y structure by which I mean it's not an app where you can simply choose your proficiency level and skip the stuff you don't need.
This is all the more true under the assumption that you're planning to monetize your game, which I'm sure you want to do considering you must have already invested a lot of time and resources.

So that's why I basically came to the conclusion "it's not for me" when I read your answer. Maybe you're right and that's an unfair assessment, but as far as the scope goes, you have to go pretty far before my purchase of your game is justified. (← putting it in the harshest way possible)

Sorry for the wall of text (bad habit). I'm not trying to be confrontational or trying to push my opinions on you in any way or already talk smack about your game or anything. I'm just trying to explain my thought process behind why I might not be your target audience. (Also, don't feel like you have to answer or address anything in here. I know answering this takes a while, and you can do better things with your time than spent it answering this word deluge. )

[Zizka]

Ah, sorry for being unclear. I just meant to say that I'm disappointed because I didn't feel like I was the target audience, and because of that I couldn't look forward to the game. That was what I was trying to say. And yeah, I'd personally like something more advanced. I still feel like your primary target audience are beginners because, sure, if you teach vocabulary like "egg" or "frying pan", you don't need example sentences. But the more advanced you get, the more often you come in contact with words that require you to look deeper into some things.

I agree. The same could be said of most languages, I feel. Certain basic words do not require context to make sense while others are more context sensitive.

I'll give you concrete examples: how are you going to handle words like かける that are bursting at the seams with definitions? How are you going to convey the big difference between 始める and 始まる without examples? The difference between 差し掛かる and 近寄る? In which situation exactly do you use 手数 and how is it different in tone from 面倒くさい? You'll never know how to use 勝手 properly if you don't look at examples because English doesn't have a fitting equivalent without going into a somewhat awkward description. You can see that I'm already getting into the nitty-gritty here, and maybe I'm cherry picking stuff to hard, but that's one reason why I tend to find these vocabulary or kanji flashcard games/apps lacking. You might find yourself saying "that's not up to me to teach" or "this is outside of the game's scope", which is perfectly fine of course, but it's not what I personally want.
(Not that you have to address what I want in any way. Also, don't feel like you have to answer or address any point in this paragraph; I just want you to maybe think about some problems you might run into and if you even want to address them.)

I'm not taking anything you say the wrong way at all. Don't worry. I do understand what you mean about context sensitive expressions. The first episode would definitely be way too easy for you, no doubt about it. I think the problematic you're describing, while valid, is a non-issue for the game I'm working on isn't concern with those. It's something I'll need to consider where it comes up for sure in the far future however, that's a good point. I actually find this an interesting challenge and would really need to think things through. We maybe can discuss it if/when I reach that point and find fun creative approaches to integrate harder, more touchy expressions.

That thing aside, let's just pretend for a moment that I'm completely happy with how you handled everything else and now I'm playing your finished game. And let's pretend the content of your game is equially distributed between beginner, intermediate, and advanced learner in a beautiful 1/3 split. Assuming I'm an advanced learner, 2/3 of the game would either be a grindfest, or if you've implemented some kind of content skipping method, I'd only get to appreciate 1/3 of the game.

Well not really because the whole game would be spread over episodes. I guess you would probably miss the content of the first episodes, that's true, but I don't really see any way to avoid this. I think a recap sequence at the beginning of each episode could help but that's the most I could do for that I think.

Learning games or apps are special in that sense that not everyone who bought your product starts on the same page, and that might be a problem if you stick to a game-y structure by which I mean it's not an app where you can simply choose your proficiency level and skip the stuff you don't need.

That's true, you won't get to skip anything you don't need. You do have some choice of attacks and defense, each with its own set of words but I don't think that would be hard enough for you. You seem pretty advanced.

So that's why I basically came to the conclusion "it's not for me" when I read your answer. Maybe you're right and that's an unfair assessment, but as far as the scope goes, you have to go pretty far before my purchase of your game is justified. (← putting it in the harshest way possible)

Oh that's totally fair. I'm the same way. I wouldn't have it any other way. You invest money in what you believe in.

Nah, I like answering people. It allows me to clear my mind about the project and precise things which I wasn't definite about beforehand.

[Zizka]

Ok, so I worked on some more stuff. I want to switch to animations for devlogs as opposed to text to make them more attractive to people. Takes about 10 hours for each one of those but I do practice a lot of techniques and experiment with stuff.



At the moment, I'm listening to indie dev on youtube as I draw about getting noticed by the media. I find that the most challenging (to me anyway). I watch Vlambeer's presentation about this (it was about an hour long) and he had some interesting ideas. From what I understand, it's really about meeting people in person and real life interaction where the magic happens.

[oahda]

And names are an entirely different beast.

Yeah, I've looked at that before. Thanks for the clarifications on default readings.

Also nice update, Zizka. I could find myself doing something like that if the winning LD theme becomes "the four classic elements".

[JobLeonard]

I can't explain why, but  I really like the whatever-the-hell the bottom right UI element is.

[Zizka]

Cheers!

Well, the thing at the bottom right is supposed to be a map. The idea is originally from Darkest Dungeon by Red Hook but it was probably done before them:



Grey cubes are rooms which are already explored. The arrows points to where the player is although I'll probably do something less intrusive to indicate the location of the player in the future.

The door is the "entrance" while the dollar sign is a shop where you can buy items with the currency dropped by beating foes.


The idea of the dungeon exploration is also from Darkest Dungeon as it allows me to have exploration without doing any level design (which I hate).

[JobLeonard]

Now I know why I liked it! It reminds me of the map system of

, a very, very old gameboy game.

[nnyei]

I'm glad my comment didn't offend you and was at least somewhat useful. I was worried that I unintentionally came off as dismissive or belligerent.

We maybe can discuss it if/when I reach that point and find fun creative approaches to integrate harder, more touchy expressions.

Sure, I enjoy these kinds of discussions, so I'm always up for that. I'm going to follow this devlog anyway, but you're welcome to contact me via PM or e-mail if you want.

[Zizka]

@JobLeonard :
I actually had never heard of the Sword of Hope. That’s probably because the Gameboy is the console I know the least about. It’s cool to know that this kind of mapping system was done before. I would’ve felt uncomfortable if it as a unique feature of the Darkest Dungeon.

@nnyei:
The fact that you could come across that way didn’t even cross my mind to be honest. The fact that a lot of people here at TIG are dev implies that we need to be extra careful when giving feedback out of fear of getting negative retribution for our own game. This is something Bakkusa talked about in the Saturday Screenshot thread which I agree about. This *can* lead to self-serving positive praise as a marketing strategy, i.e., you scratch my back and I scratch yours. Which, in turn, can lead to dishonest positive feedback. Like Vlambeer said, that’s the worst kind of feedback. It misleads you that you’re on the right track when you’re not.

So my point is: do criticize what I do honestly. That’s why I’m always looking forward to post from alvarop or bakkusa because they always say what’s on their mind and you can build from that.

I get it though, giving feedback is always a touchy thing to do. We’re all very sensitive about our creations. In my case, even though sometimes it can sting a bit, I’d rather have honest feedback like you gave than just praise. I mean, praise is fun and it motivates you but it doesn’t tell you what you could do better. If your objective is to reach a great quality product, you’ll need to overcome tons and tons of criticism.

Keep in mind that this is my first real game so it’d be surprising if I got everything right in the first place. 

For those of you who are curious, the current concept is based on another game I started 5 years ago, called Slimongo. I posted about it before but since video integration wasn’t a thing back then, it didn’t get much attention. So here it is in all its glory again:

[Zizka]

Hello there!

I'm looking for an experienced programmer. I don't mind paying more, I just want someone who knows what they're doing.

The game is here:
https://forums.tigsource.com/index.php?topic=45455.0

I have the art done. I just need someone to follow  instructions and code everything together with as little bug as possible.

I'm looking for:
*Someone who promptly answers e-mails (within 48 hours upon reception). Someone reliable in other words.
*Someone who's an adult (no one under 18). This is for legal reasons as minors sometimes can't do paid work in certain countries.
*Someone who speaks fluent English (preferably first language or completely bilingual). This is for communication purposes.
*Preferably with references, i.e., someone who's worked on other indie/pro games before.
*Someone's who has some measure of social skill. Sociopath not wanted (tried it once, never again).If you're the type of misanthrope that doesn't know/like dealing with people, don't apply.
*The engine is up to you. I just want someone who knows the engine inside/out. I can't stress this enough. This is the most important aspect.
*Do not apply if you have some doubts about your skills.
*A contract will be signed.
*A few years of experience is preferable.


IMPORTANT: When you contact me:
*Provide your list of references with contact info.
*Tell me about your experience (how long, with which engine).
*Tell me about your fee.
*Contact me through PM with an e-mail I can reach you at.

I've tried to cut corners before and save on money but I don't care anymore, I'll just pay whatever needs to be paid for quality content.

P.S.: Sorry for the capsize but people always manage to miss stuff otherwise.  

[Zizka]

be made. Each failed attempt is one less word you could have gotten right, with all the consequences that come with it.

With practice, players eventually learn every word linked to each attack. This allows the player to beat more different foes as well as learning new words at the same time. It's thus a ERPG.

[Canned Turkey]

Glad to see you heading in an interesting direction, there's not enough ERPGS, as in none!
I'm actually really looking forward to this.

[Zizka]

Thanks! Was wondering where you were!  Wasn't sure if ERPG had been coined before so decided to just go ahead with it  .

I'm working on the dojo at the moment. This is where you'll get to practice your vocab before heading out in the sewers for adventure. It's not finished yet, still need to add lighting to it but it gives a general idea: