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[Cranktrain]

I would tend to agree with much, perhaps all, of what oldblood has said, but I think that's been talked about enough.

One difficulty that a project where programmers apply to work for free is that there's little that's keeping them involved. Even extremely experienced programmers, veterans of many completed game projects, regularly underestimate the work it takes to finish a bugfix, a feature, or in this case, an entire project. If there's no upfront pay, when things get hard (and in every project, they do!) or it just doesn't seem fun anymore (also happens in every project!) then the path of least-resistance is just to disappear. I think a project lead has to be an incredibly charismatic, motivational manager to get the sort of work a game requires for free, and I'm not sure how many of these exist.

Also working against you, is that most people who would apply to work on the game in a programming capacity, might not be the strongest coders. Really talented programmers will tend to have their own projects to work on for free.

It's an interesting conundrum, but I do wonder how this could at all be navigated in a way that means you don't end up on programmer number six or seven soon. Wish I could suggest some routes to try, but all I've got is "have a programming budget" which isn't terribly helpful!

[Zizka]

One difficulty that a project where programmers apply to work for free is that there's little that's keeping them involved.

Hello!

Let me reiterate:

The problem isn't people quitting. People who quit are a lot more common than people who persevere. I'm (relatively) ok with that. The issue is people leaving without notice. For example:

Me: Hello, I haven't heard from you for a while? Could you get in touch? If you've decided to quit, could you let me know please?

Then I repeat the process a couple of times until it's clear the flaker won't bother giving me an answer. This triggers murderous tendencies for me (figure of speech). It takes 2 seconds to say: I decided to quit. It's still a mediocre way to handle things but at least I can reorganize things around. If I don't get an answer, I have to wait because I can't get rid of someone just because they don't get in touch now can I. They might have a good reason so it would suck for them to come back and realize they've been replaced. You know, basic respect. So I do my best not to put them in a tough position.

What gets to me is sending polite requests like:


...and not a word. The consequences of this is the project stalling until I decide they won't get in touch ever again and just the major waste of my time this causes. It's this "don't give a fuck" attitude which can't be defended from my point of view, regardless of the context. Can you imagine if people stopped being polite because they're volunteering for something? How messed up that would be?

What you say about overestimating the amount of work involved is true and so it giving up when it gets too hard but that's not the issue that's bothering me. People can quit all they want as long as they do it politely. That's where oldblood and I differ on the fundamentals.

Your comment about the programmer is also true.

The programmer budget might just be the last resort. In which case I will have a bulletproof contract and some way to make sure that I don't end up being penalized if they quit.

The composer for the game has been around since pretty much the beginning. He's been reliable, hard working and well pretty much flawless to be honest. So people like that *do* exist, they're just hard to find.

I still haven't decided whether to create a thread at the forum I found that flake-programmer in order to call him out and warn others to be wary of his false promises. Right now he can get away with flaking over people over and over because he's doing so anonymously. I feel sorry for other project lead he's going to do that to in the future and wish there was some way I could warn them, sort of like people with a criminal record, only in this case it'd be a flake-record. I've seen that around on other websites for art for instance. People who steal/don't pay their artists following a commission are identified publicly. We'll see. I most likely won't do it but it'd be neat to have a system sort of like eBay where scammers can be identified and where people can be held accountable.

 

 

[oldblood]

That's my take on things. I don't impose it to anyone, that's the way I was educated. I'm not saying you're wrong and I'm right, but we certainly don't agree about the nature of collaborations between human beings.

We definitely disagree on how collaboration works so I wont bother with trying to debate you on it since I don't think you want to hear any of it. Honestly, when I started doing games years ago... I had almost the exact same perspective as you. Which is part of the reason why I follow your devlog, I respect your drive and outlook.

Where you "differ on fundamentals" is that you assume everyone must respond how you would respond. And the reality is that simply wont be the case. The world isn't filled with Etienne's. I wasted around 5 years of game development trying to learn how to better work with people mostly because I had an idea how it should work and when it didn't work that way-- I ignored feedback and advice because I knew my perspective was best and everyone should collaborate the way I collaborate. I hope you don't waste as many years as I did before you understand the real nature of collaborative work in game development. Good luck with the new programming prospect, I really do hope this one sticks!

[Zizka]

We definitely disagree on how collaboration works so I wont bother with trying to debate you on it since I don't think you want to hear any of it. Honestly, when I started doing games years ago... I had almost the exact same perspective as you. Which is part of the reason why I follow your devlog, I respect your drive and outlook.

It's not that I don't want to hear any of it, I just don't agree with you. Everyone is different and believe different things and we don't see eye to eye as to how collaborations work. Neither of us is right, we just both hold different beliefs.

Where you "differ on fundamentals" is that you assume everyone must respond how you would respond.

Not about everything, about certain things, yes, definitely.

I wasted around 5 years of game development trying to learn how to better work with people mostly because I had an idea how it should work and when it didn't work that way-- I ignored feedback and advice because I knew my perspective was best and everyone should collaborate the way I collaborate.

I guess you had to experience those 5 years to learn and draw your own conclusions.

You seem to be convinced that the way I collaborate with people is the issue. That might or might not be the case. Just try to keep this in mind. Maybe the way I collaborate with people isn't the problem here, or not all of the problem. I don't ignore your feedback, I disagree with you, you'll have to come to terms with that eventually  . I know maybe it's frustrating to you, being convinced that I'm messing up my collaborations and trying so hard to point me in the right direction. I'm under the impression you'd think the right way to act for me would be to act like you do now, following those 5 years. You and I are different people and therefore have different ways to handle various situations. What works for you isn't necessarily what works for me and vice-versa. I think we're both stubborn Jon, for better or worse!

I hope you don't waste as many years as I did before you understand the real nature of collaborative work in game development. Good luck with the new programming prospect, I really do hope this one sticks!

If it takes me 5 years to learn how to have better collaborations with people, well it's going to take 5 years. Like I said, there's no one way to do things. I'll figure what works for me through my own experiences, how could it be any other way? Some people's suggestions will ring true to me and I'll be tempted to adopt them, while others will clash pretty badly with my beliefs and I'll wave them off (read here: they collaborate so they can do whatever they want). We don't have the same conception of volunteerism and I can speak for experience for I've done a lot of volunteering in my own personal life.

I've met volunteers who were reliable, hard working people so there's really no point in trying to convince me that people who volunteer shouldn't be accountable for anything they do. It's not about not doing the right thing because I don't follow your belief, it's just me disagreeing with you, that's all there is to it really. Out of the 3 programmers, 2 have been responsible in the way they left the project, one just left. It's not the majority here, being flaky is (thankfully) the minority.

Well, I think this sums things up. I am very vigilant in the way I interact with other programmers. With the current programmer, I told him: "All I'm asking is that, if you decide to leave, just to let me know and not leave me in the dark, is that ok?" (on Skype), the new programmer said: "(chuckle) Don't worry, I won't be a dick." Now if he does end up doing that, save your time and don't write me a message according to what he did was fine. You'd be hitting a concrete wall.

 

[oldblood]

I guess you had to experience those 5 years to learn and draw your own conclusions.

Yes, exactly. I'm not giving my opinion because I'm upset you disagree with me, I just feel like I'm looking into the past with my own life and just trying to help you save years of your life and skip a few hard lessons. But as you said, you'd rather just spend the 5 years. So, I will hold off on any further feedback. I will agree with one thing you said, you are definitely not me.

...Now if he does end up doing that, save your time and don't write me a message according to what he did was fine. You'd be hitting a concrete wall.

Haha, I'm already talking to a concrete wall... But don't worry, I will save my time and breath in the future. As I said, best of luck with the new programmer!

[io3 creations]

@zizka

Sounds like the Life Lessons keep coming.  

In terms of awareness, your nude analogy is actually quite apt.  Can you imagine a situation where you get hired and then the boss says: "By the way, if you want to get paid, you'll have to do some stripping at the next office party".   My guess it that would come as a huge shock to most and the mention of Kickstarter video came as a surprise.   Even with a "Would that be okay for you?",  there are many who have issues with saying no (or saying no to someone they perceive as authority figure) and the programmer may have interpreted the situation as something that couldn't be refused and can easily behave in unexpected ways.  I could come up with many more potential explanations for the programmer's behaviour.  I'm sure you know about passive aggressiveness.  That can really irritate those who prefer direct communication.  But I also agree that it can seem flaky on your end. Unfortunately most likely in this case the actual answer remain one of those (like that old TV show) Unsolved Mysteries.

Of course, that doesn't mean that you can't express how you feel about it, but how you do it can make a difference in terms of how others perceive it.  On one hand you said that the programmer leaving didn't phase you ... but the content of your post indicated otherwise.  Maybe the key word is "relatively", but mixing the facts with emotional rants gives the impression that you are also blaming the person for not doing the Kickstarter video in the first place.  Also, in a later post you are talking about wishing to warn other, you talk about the programmer as if the flaky behaviour was constant but you don't show any evidence for that.  It may have been the first and only time the programmer behaved in such a way.  If you do post about the programmer somewhere, focus on the facts of what happened and leave out the drama (i.e. rants).  That way others can make their reach their own "objective" conclusions.

As for human behaviour, the more people you meet, the more "strange" behaviour your likely to encounter.   Hence, one way or another ... more Life Lessons.  What those lessons actually are and how long it takes for us to learn them ... that's what life is about.

[Zizka]

@oldblood:

Yes, exactly. I'm not giving my opinion because I'm upset you disagree with me, I just feel like I'm looking into the past with my own life and just trying to help you save years of your life and skip a few hard lessons. But as you said, you'd rather just spend the 5 years. So, I will hold off on any further feedback. I will agree with one thing you said, you are definitely not me.

That's petty, you're better than that. Maybe you are a better person than I am. If that's the case, more power to you.

But don't worry, I will save my time and breath in the future. As I said, best of luck with the new programmer!

Just because we don't agree on one thing doesn't mean we'll constantly disagree in the future you know, your last message sounds like a mood swing, that's also unlike you. Take it easy oldblood, no hard feelings on my part.

Signed,

The Concrete Wall.

@io3 creation:

First paragraph

I understand your point: certain requests can be off-putting. Making videos for KS campaigns is a pretty common thing so it fits along the usual guidelines of KickStarters. But anyways, we'll never know the real reason so speculating about it is pretty pointless. I've actually forgiven the guy, I doubt he thinks leaving like that without a word anyway. Also, feeling angry about him was wasting my mood so I had no other options really.

Of course, that doesn't mean that you can't express how you feel about it, but how you do it can make a difference in terms of how others perceive it.  On one hand you said that the programmer leaving didn't phase you ... but the content of your post indicated otherwise.  Maybe the key word is "relatively", but mixing the facts with emotional rants gives the impression that you are also blaming the person for not doing the Kickstarter video in the first place.

I've already explained this:

The problem isn't people quitting. People who quit are a lot more common than people who persevere. I'm (relatively) ok with that. The issue is people leaving without notice. For example:

[snip]

The consequences of this is the project stalling until I decide they won't get in touch ever again and just the major waste of my time this causes.

It's ok if people think I'm upset because the guy left after 3 days. If you do want to know the nuance though:

It's pretty simple really:

Whenever you leave a job you can either:

A) give two-weeks notice: I'm disappointed but ok with that.
B) or simply not show up for work one day: I'm not ok with that, it pisses me off.

That's about it.

My interpretation of things is the following:

The reason why one of developers quit was because I was disorganized. I wasn't ahead enough in the project when I tried to find a programmer and I had to request a lot of changes. I can understand how that got to him eventually, two steps forward and one step back so I understand why he left. I learned that you don't get in touch with a programmer until everything is pretty much set in stone or close to it. After that, I became accustomed to Trello and things like that:


The reason why another developer left was because I wanted all the bugs to be fixed. A lot of the bugs kept coming back weeks and weeks and this led me to suggest having someone tutor and help the programmer. I think that might've insulted him. I've noticed some people don't want to ask for help because they see this as maybe a form of weakness. I don't, so I'm quick to suggest getting help when something isn't working. Now, the builds sometimes had something close to 60 odd bugs so it wasn't something minor, not to my eyes anyway. Maybe other developers would be fine with releasing their games with known bugs but that's not something I was willing to do.

The third one is probably the camera thing. We'll never know.

As for my communication with programmers:




I always strive to be polite.

I guess what I'm saying is that I do review my messages and do my best to understand what share of responsibilities I had if something happens.

you talk about the programmer as if the flaky behaviour was constant but you don't show any evidence for that.  It may have been the first and only time the programmer behaved in such a way.  If you do post about the programmer somewhere, focus on the facts of what happened and leave out the drama (i.e. rants).  That way others can make their reach their own "objective" conclusions.

That's true, I didn't think of that. It might be his first time, you're right (see, I agree with people sometimes but only if I think they're right  ,). I haven't done this though and won't. It'd be a waste of time. It's not the end of the world and I'm better prepared now. But yeah, real life collaborations are certainly more up my alley than virtual ones, no doubt about it. There's something tangible which is not the case on the net.

What those lessons actually are and how long it takes for us to learn them ... that's what life is about

But see though, there's not ONE life lesson, there are many. There's not one way to deal with things, one way to react, one RIGHT way. That's what I was trying to explain previously about the 5 years thing but it went completely unnoticed. That I would learn my own lessons based on who I am. Besides, what sort of lessons could there be about this since we'll never know why he left.

Anyways, did a new attack for the Hell Dryer, just so this message actually related to the game this time around and not what is peripheral to it:

[swordofkings128]

Phew that's some really slick animation on that hell dryer! Maybe it could use a breath mint hehe!

[Zizka]

But then it'd lose his secondary attack!

I'm waiting to get some development code wise before releasing a new devlog (and also, drama devlog apparently get tons of attention  ) but I just spent 6 hours experimenting with the menu. Slowly getting there after trying different layouts:

[Zizka]

Guess what?

I’ve decided to learn how to code. That’s right, you read me right. No, the new developer hasn't quit but I figured I'd better be ready for any eventualities. I also want to help coding wise to help out the current programmer of his task. I don't think it's something I could have avoided a lot longer anyway.

I’ve gotten a few books about the topic and I’m slowly getting into it. I’ve gotten over my aversion of it and am now curious about it. It *is* very complicated for sure. I'm still struggling to figure out how it all works to be honest, the logistics of it.

As you may or may not know, STX is made with Unity and coded in C#. I didn’t actually know C# existed before I started to read about it. Three languages are available in Unity: Boo, Javascript and C#. From what I understand, C# is the “best” one. At this point in time however I’m too much of a neophyte to tell you why C# is the best I’ll admit.

I started with “Game Coding Complete” but it was clearly aimed at more advanced programmers. I then moved to another book about C# but this was also too complex, I wasn’t familiar with the vocabulary and felt lost.

I finally checked out C# for Dummies.

I learned a bunch of things but a lot stuff is still fuzzy.

-Things I Learned-

1. Apparently, by typing:
#region
[something]
#endregion
I can hide what’s between the two #.

2. Typing // is a way to indicate that what comes after is just instructions about the code, not actual commands for the program to interpret. Those are called Comments.

3. Before you use a variable, you must declare it.

4. To initialize means to assign an initial value to a variable.

5. You must initialize a variable before using it.

6. The book then talks about the Integer types. This is something I didn’t really understand. If integer can go from -2 billion to 2 billion, what’s the point of using different types of integer?


7. Integer truncation and rounding is not the same thing. For example, an integer truncation of 1.9 would be 1 while rounding would be 2.

8. We should use double variables instead of float. To be honest, as a n00b, I don’t really see a point of being so precise number-wise. I guess it’ll become clearer as I go along.

9. I’ll admit the floating point thing is sort of confusing to me. I understand that it has the advantage over an integer to take into account the decimals. According to the book you can’t count using floating points.  Also, it’s difficult to compare floating points because of the decimals. The computer doesn’t understand that 1.000001 is basically the same as 1.000000 (or 1).

10. Integer are faster to process than floating points.

11. Another option is the decimal. So basically so far we have: integer, floating-point, double and decimal.

12. Adding M after a number declares it as a decimal.

13. Decimals are the slowest.

14. a “bool” variable can either be one of two things: true or false. In C++ 0 was false and other numbers was true but not in C#.

15. C# treats letters as part of two categories:
a. char
b. string

16. ‘char’ allows to use a single character. Not too sure what would be the point of that just yet though.

17. If you put some letters after a \, you can get special functions to trigger:


18. You can’t have a string over two lines, you need to use \n.

19. String is not a value type. I don’t know what “value type” means just yet but string isn’t one.

20. char use ‘x’ while strings use “x”.

21. Unity has big list of the all behaviors the Game Objects can have.

22. The file name and the class name in the scripts must be the same.

23. Function and method in Unity refer to the same thing.

24. OOP = Object Oriented Programming

25. You need to identify variables in order to use them. Which variable contains what.

26. A script linked to a game object is called a “Component”.

27. dot syntax is when you write files like this: Cabbage.point

28. a method is a substitute for a block of code.

29. Programming grammar is called C# syntax

30. semi-colons ( are used to end a sentence. Not periods (.) because those are used in dot syntax.

31. You can write code over multiple lines, Unity doesn’t care about that as long as you finish your statements with ;.


As you can read, I’m still far away from actually rolling up my sleeves and getting into the code per se but it’s a start. I’m already a lot less ignorant about this topic than I used to be.

[aamatniekss]

Glad to see you finally decided to take matters into own hands.
As a suggestion, maybe try looking into GM:studio? Its a lot easier for complete newcomers, imo. Especially if you want to make a pixel game, as in unity you will also have to work around the fact that its normally a 3d engine and some other problems with getting the pixels to display right,etc. I also think learning GML is pretty much easier than C#. Though I suppose learning C# would be better in the general sense and in the long run. Well whatever you prefer in the end, just my 2 cents.

[alvarop]

Learn GML for sure, if you want to make the game anytime in the next couple of years.

[Zizka]

Glad to see you finally decided to take matters into own hands.

Yes, there was no avoiding it I think. Working with others has always been difficult for me as I have very high expectations of myself which I also have for others which as we know as led to some problems.

The programmer is still on but as time go by, I want to become less dependent on someone else for anything related to code and become independent.

I actually started with Game Maker at first. The problem with it is that you have to pay quite a hefty fee for the license as opposed to Unity which is free.

When I tried messing around with Game Maker, it didn't come easily to me. Even doing those demos they have as tutorials in certain books was difficult.

I'll keep commenting on the various books I come across on the topic of programming. It might help other people to get into it so to speak.


Gaming Coding Complete by Mike McShaffry and David Graham:
It's about 1000 pages long and talks about a lot of things. It talks a lot about the coding peripherals and doesn't hold your hand when it comes to actual coding. I think you would need to have quite a bit of experience to use this book. It's not very useful as a beginner (for me anyway).

C# for Dummies by Bill Sempf, Chuck Sphar and Stephen Randy Davis.
This one is about 850 pages. It is a *lot* more accessible to beginners. The "problem" I find is that the book isn't game related. So it'll talk about programming software but won't focus on programming for games. Still, I think this is a must read. It really helped me to start organizing things in my head.

So at the moment, I'm looking for a good book on Unity which would cover both the coding and how the whole program works. I'll keep you guys updated for sure.
@alvarop: The current programmer is working on Unity so I can't really ask him to change after all the work he's done . Either way, at this point in time, I really just want to help out more than to be in charge of anything. He could give me a simple task than I would code it on my own. Also, I'm very dedicated. I don't mind spending all of my free time to learn how to do something. Considering how much of a barrier programming has been for this project, I'm more than motivated to learn it in order to get this out of the way.

Then again, maybe it's possible to export the code the Game Maker. I'd need to check. I don't want to bother the programmer though and risk losing him.

[aamatniekss]

Just to be clear, the free version of the game maker is exactly the same as the full, and you can do everything on it. Only downside to it is that it has that 'Made with Game Maker' splash screen, but you can get the pro version when the game is done to remove it. So that's really not a problem.
I understand that youve already started with Unity too, but if it's not too much work done in the unity already, then maybe it would still be better to just go GM

[Zorg]

The easiest way to start programming are examples and reading well commented/documented code, imho. Unity looks pretty complicated at first, it's easier if you are familiar with any other programming language before. GameMaker features a useful setup for games which are based on (2d pixel-perfect) tilesets. You get fast results with less code and the GameMaker Language is pretty straightforward. You could watch the first tutorial videos by Tom Francis to get an impression

. Good Luck!

[Zizka]

Thanks zorg!

So I googled GML (Game Maker Language) says it's slower than C++ (and therefore slower than C# I would imagine):

From wikipedia:

Game Maker Language (GML) is the primary interpreted scripting language used in GameMaker, which is usually significantly slower than compiled languages such as C++ or Delphi.[9] It is used to further enhance and control the design of a game through more conventional programming, as opposed to the drag and drop system.

From this reddit:

GML is a bad language. I know they originally planned to remove it, but it's still here. It doesn't have real arrays, data structures are very clumsy to use, and there's no legitimate debugger to speak of. Don't even dream of asking for help on the forums, you will get responses that run the gamut from useless to insane. If you have a legitimate bug a dev might respond, if you're lucky

Way back when we first used Game Maker when it was a platformer, there were significant slowdowns at time, some lag I mean. It was just a 2D platformer so I'll admit I'm a bit weary of the software now. I don't know a lot about the code but maybe it was because GML is slower than say Java or C#, not sure. 


I've stumbled across a *very* good book for beginners: Learning C# by developing games with Unity 3D by Terry Norton. I would strongly recommend it to anyone without any programming background like me.

For the moment, I don't want to throw away what the programmer in Unity has already done, it wouldn't be right obviously. I would really like to salvage what's been done so far in Unity code (C#), it would be a shame to let it go to waste considering how much time and energy was spent getting that bit of code.

Also, from this thread on Steam:

By all means, learn the basics of C# or any other programming language (hint: they're dang near identical to GM's and everything else's, give or take some differences in syntax)

So from what I understand the GML and C# is not *that* different. So learning the basics of C# probably can't hurt.

[swordofkings128]

My advice would be to not worry about programming in a language yet, and instead focusing on learning programming logic. I took a class at a local community college while getting my associates degree and it was the most useful class I took there. If you can afford it, and have the time to, I'd highly recommend checking out if there is a place around you that offers a class in programming logic.

Raptor flow chart interpreter was the program we used(which is free) and the text book was Simple Program Design. Now, fair warning: This way is pretty boring, and without the incentive of getting an A on the assignments and tests, I don't think I personally would have been able to learn as well and as quickly as I did in a semester.

Of course you could always just google programming logic, there has to be a ton of tutorials and stuff on that all over the internet, but like I said the classroom setting helped keep me from giving up.

Though, it sounds like you're already on a good path, and some people might learn better with an actual language instead of Raptor/pseudocode. So do what you think will be the best way for you to learn.

Either way, you've made a wise decision and soon you'll be a code-wizard in no time hehe!

[alvarop]

+1 to learn programming logic (and might I add) stop worrying about the "fastest language" and stuff like that. You got a long way to go before you notice any of that. I'm pretty sure any performance issue you were having with GML wasn't related to GML itself, but to something else.

It's not like this project is that resource intensive from what you've show so far. It would do just fine in GML. Now, as I say this, I also say : just learn something and stick with it for a bit, and then the next thing you're gonna learn is gonna be way easier, because you'll know the programming principles you need.

[aamatniekss]

Yes agree about the speeds of the language, dont worry too much about it. GML is definitely more than capable to make the game you want and run it at 1000fps+, that shouldnt be a problem. What problems you had before were probably just something to do with inefficient code,  and wouldnt have run in any other language smoothly too.

[Zizka]

Ok, got you guys regarding programming.


So as you know, the main stats in STX are Protein (Strength), Fibre (Resistance), Omega 3 (intelligence), Sugar (energy) and... x (speed).

What nutrient would you say would best represent speed? I had sugar at first but it didn't really make sense. It made more sense to have sugar for energy than speed...

I thought of Calories for speed but that doesn't really *stick* either mind in my mind.a