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[JobLeonard]

people don't get hyped up over the really novel

I think you accidentally the adjective.

I a lot of things, so probably

From my experience, yes, the exposure to high quality graphics (but also gameplay, usability, accessability etc) has raised the bar of what players find attractive or creators good decent enough to be proud of.

There are so many implicit assumptions about "good" and "bad" graphics (or art in general) in this one little sentence that it would take an hour-long lecture to dissect everything that's wrong with those underlying assumptions.

Luckily I gave such a lecture during a game design class last year:









https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t2Rj5N_Z_oQ

Actually, the art-style isn't up to me.  Tidepool art is player-drawn, so talented artists could draw better art and the style would be different.

Meh, keep out the "talented" artists. Your earlier argument about creativity applies here as well: people insist too much about what art should be like (I rant a bit more about that in the above clips), and most people suck at judging art. In practice it only leads to intimidating the playful fun out of children.

[oahda]

people don't get hyped up over the really novel

I think you accidentally the adjective.

I a lot of things, so probably

Wait, WTH? You didn't miss anything. I understood the sentence perfectly fine now that I came back to it. I have no idea what must've been going through my mind. I probably read novel as a different word or something. Sorry.

Also you're completely right. Unfortunately.

[JobLeonard]

novel concepts maybe?

[lithander]

From my experience, yes, the exposure to high quality graphics (but also gameplay, usability, accessability etc) has raised the bar of what players find attractive or creators good decent enough to be proud of.

There are so many implicit assumptions about "good" and "bad" graphics (or art in general) in this one little sentence that it would take an hour-long lecture to dissect everything that's wrong with those underlying assumptions.

The target audience for most games has not a bachelor of art but is more like Katie. I avoided to use the word 'art' intentionally. Katie and the boy both appreciate the craftmanship and realism in the painting. In most game projects it's really about 'illustration' not art and if Katie doesn't like it but you want to sell to Katie then you better find something that Katie likes. I think my understanding of what is considered high quality by most consumers isn't so wrong that you'd need to lecture me hour-long about it. (yes I'm a little offended but I know it's probably just a misunderstanding)

Edit: I really enjoy the videos you posted but as long as I have a mortage to pay off on that house I'll make sure Katie won't be disapponted with my work.^^

[teefal]

JobLeonard, I've got a lot to say about your videos, but first want to talk about Theory of Mind.  (And yes, you managed to get me to pull Rules of Play off my shelf too, and even some Daniel Dennett)

As you probably know, I've done a lot of work in Haiti, in some very bad places, like Cité Soleil. Through the effects of violence and poverty and lack of education, many young adults are not far past the 5 year old stage, as you can see in this video made in 2008 by some friends of mine (skip to 4:20 to see the specific example)





A key concept here is imagining the reaction of another person, then witnessing a sampling of reactions, then iterating your work ... ie, playtesting.  Allowing this to happen in a safe environment without the harshness of adult expectations and lack of patience, having children be able to watch others play their stories, allowing them to collaborate by making new branches and chatting , that's the goal anyway.

More later.

[Zizka]

Yeah, I don't think the intention was to lecture anyone here but to share what he does for work since it's on topic.

This being said, I agree with lithander on the whole. Most people might suck at appreciating art but most is the keyword here. If most people don't like your art, regardless if they're appreciating enough what they should appreciate, the person who ends up with the short end of the stick is the dev. So it's certainly something to consider. Just my opinion, I'm no expert.

[Greipur]

The target audience for most games has not a bachelor of art but is more like Katie. I avoided to use the word 'art' intentionally. Katie and the boy both appreciate the craftmanship and realism in the painting. In most game projects it's really about 'illustration' not art and if Katie doesn't like it but you want to sell to Katie then you better find something that Katie likes. I think my understanding of what is considered high quality by most consumers isn't so wrong that you'd need to lecture me hour-long about it. (yes I'm a little offended but I know it's probably just a misunderstanding)

Edit: I really enjoy the videos you posted but as long as I have a mortage to pay off on that house I'll make sure Katie won't be disapponted with my work.^^

Lithander, I understand your point of view of the lowest common denominator, and I personally believe that here is where you're misunderstanding each other. I think it's commendable that Teefal sticks to their guns, and I also understand where Job is coming from. I think it's a question of who is the demographic for Tidepool. Is it for Katie or someone else? Some games are niche, did the niche connect to the Kickstarter? Hard to say.

As far as I understand cultural tastes they are learned (by heritage), if they weren't people all around the globe would think the same thing and do the same stuff. As kids we aren't trained yet to appreciate a certain point of view, if that would be the case, small children would be so well versed and self-critical that they wouldn't make their carefree expressions. Self-criticism is learned later I think. I've read that in Sweden you can see that most children draw until the age of 12 and after that the only ones that keep doing it are the people who will make it their career. Most people stop doing something they enjoyed since they realise that they would need years of training to be "happy", though us professional artists never are.

I think the Western world (or maybe most of the globalised world) is obsessed with perfection. A former game design teacher of mine (whose parents are anthropologists) said that in region X (I don't remember completely so I'll leave it blank) they don't have a clear distinction between the pro and the amateur and everyone in their society creates carefree without a self-imposed ideal for realism.

If Teefal's goal is to create a space for children to express themselves freely you might want to show them things they could have created themselves, otherwise they might get shut down by this high standard. But then again, children don't have disposable income. It's tricky.

---

Teefal, I think you should keep the naivistic/childish approach due to the reasons stated above, but I do think you could polish some art assets, interface and logo for example. This could make an interesting compromise.

[teefal]

Boy, the irony of getting the most response the day after the Kickstarter, both here and my mailing list, etc.

So cognitive development ... it's the core of what I'm after, particularly the transition between concrete thinking and abstract thinking, which happens to 7 to 12 year olds (except sometimes in extreme places like Cite Soleil).

If children don't adapt well to abstract thought (hey kid, get these 50 math problems right or you get a bad grade), then as Papert put it, "deficiency becomes identity."  All of my work, and Papert work, and Kay's work hinges on the idea of computers being a more patient, concrete, way to gain confidence with abstract thought.  Learning to code is learning to think, etc.

What makes Papert unique is his focus on the emotional.  This is how he differed from Piaget, whom he studied with.  The key fulcrum in society, I believe, is how we learn abstraction, and how we feel about abstract activities.  We either A) tune out, B) become rote repeaters, or C) embrace the complexity. This is the crux of it, and it means a lot more than STEM aptitude.

It means Stage Three thinking, which means compassion, which means everything.

And lithander, zizka, and greipur, I'll get to your great posts.  I'm still thinking about JobLeonard's videos.

[oahda]

Boy, the irony of getting the most response the day after the Kickstarter, both here and my mailing list,
etc.

Yeah, I was just thinking the same thing before clicking and reading this now, after seeing that yet again there were new posts in this thread... It's a real pity I was basically entirely off the internet at the time and didn't find out about this until the end of the campaign.

Maybe Patreon would be suitable in this situation? Starting a new campaign right after another is probably a weird thing to do, but maybe you can redirect those who wanted to support you, and any newcomers, to a Patreon account, where they can pledge and you'll be guaranteed the money, no matter how much or how little?

Again, I'm not a business person at all. Just an idea.

[io3 creations]

I think you know what I mean when I say "I wish had more time"     Not sure if it would've made much of a difference if I had been able to take a better look at the Kickstarter but perhaps some ideas might be useful for the road ahead.

Overall, it seems like you have the elements but for certain aspects you need more focus.

You probably know that one aspect of marketing is differentiating your product/service from others'.  I did pop-in here and there (starting only relatively recently) but the Kickstarter campaign seemed somewhat confusing.  On one hand Tidepool seems to be for kids but I don't those kids would really visit KS much so it didn't seem like the right platform.  Also, the title "Tidepool, a codable world for kids" and later "Tidepool, a codable game world"  seems to imply that it's mainly about coding.  The description, "A storytelling game world that kids code with conversation" sounds quite different.   What is Tidepool really about?  You've probably seen similar exercises: list the words come to mind and rank them in terms of importance.  Is the storytelling aspect more important then coding?  Also, since kids can draw, perhaps being creative, co-operation might be more important as well.

Having read some of your posts on the last few pages, at least it seems like you have a much better idea about the overall project's direction.  In terms of funding, my first thought was also that your main target is actually the teachers and parents.  I'd imagine that how you communicate to them is somewhat different from the KS campaign.  For them, it's not just about having "fun" but what will kids learn or what would Tidepool allow them to learn and focus on that.  You mentioned having some trials already so chances are you have feedback.  Having at least written (but if possible video testimonials) from teachers and parent that lists benefits could help with your future pitches.

The video that Zizka talked about the pitch is here: http://www.gdcvault.com/play/1020877/In-3-Sentences-or-Less  My guess is that you already know this but could be a useful refresher or perhaps for a few ideas.

In terms of the "art" aspect, I'd say it depends on which one serves the project's objective better.  If the self created characters serve it better than focus on that and ignore the others.  As mentioned by others, of course, certain approaches will effect the bottom line and various aspects differently than others...

While most game developers are focused on shoot'em up action, Timothy Falconer decided to take his ten year old daughter (Isabel) out of school to help create a new gaming experience that makes kids smarter!

I wonder about that line.  At first impression (and especially without more context) it doesn't sound like a smart thing to do.

Also, my guess is that parents and teaches wouldn't really reachable through those media channels but it's better to focus on direct approach or magazines, events are for them.

But these are just the "details".  Based on my experience, @JobLeonard already mentioned the important part:  https://forums.tigsource.com/index.php?topic=45992.msg1233299#msg1233299

So, these would be the things off the top of my head.

In any event, good luck with your project and keep the dream going!

[JobLeonard]

@Teefal: on the other hand, at least interest grows instead of fizzles out!

From my experience, yes, the exposure to high quality graphics (but also gameplay, usability, accessability etc) has raised the bar of what players find attractive or creators good decent enough to be proud of.

There are so many implicit assumptions about "good" and "bad" graphics (or art in general) in this one little sentence that it would take an hour-long lecture to dissect everything that's wrong with those underlying assumptions.

The target audience for most games has not a bachelor of art but is more like Katie. I avoided to use the word 'art' intentionally. Katie and the boy both appreciate the craftmanship and realism in the painting. In most game projects it's really about 'illustration' not art and if Katie doesn't like it but you want to sell to Katie then you better find something that Katie likes.

Of course it's useless to create something that does not appeal to the target audience. Still, it is our responsibility as creators to make something that is rich enough that it would allow Katie to grow beyond her position.

And especially games have vast untapped possibilities here: they have interactive narrative possibilities impossible in other media, with the exception of other human beings.

Katie doesn't know why the painter would depict something so ugly. A game could engage in a dialogue about that.

Also when you say "raise the bar", well, what bar are we talking about? Because if it means "production values", that bar is the stage two judgement with very little correlation to the actual quality of the content and playability of a game. And from the point of view of a creator of a game (where I mean both professionals like you and Timothy, as well as the kids playing with Tidepool), the situation becomes comparable to this:





... in the sense that "next-gen graphics" are something we are told to aspire to, intimidating people away kind of like how the cooking lifestyle example intimidates people into thinking they're failures at cooking a decent meal.

(Oh, I just realised that I basically repeated Greipur's point here)

I think my understanding of what is considered high quality by most consumers isn't so wrong that you'd need to lecture me hour-long about it. (yes I'm a little offended but I know it's probably just a misunderstanding)

Edit: I really enjoy the videos you posted but as long as I have a mortage to pay off on that house I'll make sure Katie won't be disapponted with my work.^^

For the record, I wasn't talking from a "hurdur I'm stage five you plebs" point of view (also, I'm like... stage three-and-a-half, on a good day), and I apologize for probably coming across as such. I completely understand your position too.

In my defence, I responded a bit pointedly because I was defensive from the other side: too often I've seen people judge things based on what they think they know, instead of being open for what can be. For example, "oh that game sucks because it doesn't have the newest gorgeous next-gen graphics" when the aesthetics, gameplay and content is richer than any AAA title out there. It's like that earlier comment I posted, with the analogy of the quality of food being judged by how efficient it delivers calories.

Which is a direct connection to that bird-drawing example that Timothy shared: once people are told to like genres and graphics based on certain existing styles, their own creativity and openness regarding what games could be goes out the window.

My position is a "I wish more people were trying to at least give players the possibility of reaching stage three level thinking" - because I am convinced that good game design can do that (to steal an analogy from Smalltalk: the content should have a "high ceiling"), and without compromising appeal.

It's not about producing high art - I left the academic art circlejerk behind me for good reasons, it's about making things that allows us to become better, more empathic people.

I think Teefal's demographic is Katie, and not so much as a consumer but as a fellow human being to nurture.

Of course, like Greipur pointed out, one issue is that Katie has no disposable income, and at the moment a full appreciation of this concept requires stage three-almost-four from parents, which is rare.

[teefal]

Wow, so much to say.

First, io3 (thanks for your great feedback) .. yes, my target and core message have changed over the month. Given a means to measure people's reactions (retweets, pledges, page views), I've been experimenting.

This phase of my plan has always been about gamers, hence my press focus and trip to GDC. More specifically, gamers who have kids or want to help kids. Most of my experience is with a similar group: techy adults who embraced OLPC's mission. My hope was to engage people most likely to see that teaching kids to make games is a good thing (not quite yet parents and teachers).

At GDC, the one-on-one reactions were very positive, but I had the luxury of altering my pitch as I got to know each person ... he likes that it's a custom game engine, or she likes that it's teaching nonlinear narrative, etc, etc.  Of course pitching Kickstarter or the press doesn't allow this. I have to come up with a unique selling proposition and position myself.

So HOW to say WHAT to WHO?  What are the essential elements, the ah-ha's.  You picked up on several: storytelling, coding, NLP, game world. The marketing hacks focused on "game that makes kids smarter" and how I took my daughter out of school (that's the angle, they told me).  

It's the classic elephant to the blind men situation, so I've been trying different approaches to see what resonated most (it's a snake, no it's a tree trunk). In the end, it feels like an exercise in futility. What phrase to put on the billboard is likely much less important than a kid saying to another, "hey check this out." (which is why I'm retreating again to kids)

For me personally, the truest, most motivational message I've written are the first few lines of the trailer.  "At the start, we're all brilliant", etc.  As many times as I've had this conversation, it always comes back to that, giving children room to grow their minds without the pressure of adult expectation. This is the real reason I took my daughter out of school, not so she could help me make a game.

Anyway, clearly I'm wrong on one of the big three:  wrong audience, wrong message, wrong product.  I couldn't even raise $18k after two months of trying.

[lithander]

Greipur, JobLeonard, I get what you're trying to say. When I say "high quality graphics" you object to my shallow, superficial definition of quality. When I speak of a "raised bar" you see a almost literal bar that intimidates and discurages creativity from being expressed by non-professionals. When you look upon children's artwork you don't see lack of skill and refinement you see carefree expression untainted by a society and it's materialistic, perfectionistic, competative values.

I would argue against myself if I tried to argue against that. If you look at my personal(!) blog you can see weird projects that have no commercial viability whatsoever: Core Society or Grove Script. There's a rant about how I feel video games are missing their potential. But there's also a different story there: In 2009 I made a small flash game called Rune Hunt and unlike all other games I start in my spare time I wanted to see this one through. I wanted people to play it. Wanted to earn a bit of money from all the hard work, too. Everything in that game I did myself, not thinking about a "target audience" or anything like that. I wanted to capture something I felt playing a specific video game as a child. The sounds are bad, and the graphics too - far from professional grade" (though I got better with practice) - everything except the portrait of the character which happens to be my TIG source avatar, still. That piece I comissioned for 50$ or something and used it to make an icon and to create promotional stuff like a trailer etc. Because when you want potential sponsors to see your game, players to play it, then you need their attention. And a professional artwork can do that in the blink of an eye. I didn't sell my soul or compromised anything about the game - I hired a professional artist to give my game a chance to be noticed in a crowded, screeming, glaring, oversaturated entertainment-market. You need to think in that categories if you do a kickstarter, too. And my early posts were all meant as advice and feedback to help with that.

And the stuff we do at work... well we consider ourselves and Indie studie because there's no-one telling us how to make our games. But we all want to live from our work and the market is tough and almost shifting so just making "your thing" isn't gonna work. You have to make a product that sells and if that's not possible without compromise then you have to compromise.

[oahda]

I don't see how your anecdotes translate to Tidepool, tho, lithander. Where would Tim put artwork that has nothing to do with the game whatsoever? I understand it worked for you but I'm not sure the exact same thing can be done here while preserving the fundamental idea of Tidepool. If anything, it would have to go towards the design of the interface, I guess, which someone already mentioned. Perhaps not show the game in isolation, but by filming a laptop and a kid interacting with it (still with a clear and sharp view of Tidepool, of course, but not only that)?

[lithander]

I think I really suck at communicating today. What I wanted to say is that you need to grab peoples attention, then pitch your game and get people invested in it before you lose that attention again. And "high quality" assets can play an important role and help your game even if they are 100% promotional. This doesn't need to be art. You could get a professional to film your kickstarter video or whatever seems fitting. I could give tons of examples how other's use this but I wanted to tell my own experience in that regard because it was such a small investment that changed so much in the end. And because I was talking about my side projects anyway in the discussion with JobLeonard.

Sorry for derailing the thread if that's what I did.

[oahda]

No, no, I get it. It was just you kept coming back to the art specifically.

[teefal]

If most people don't like your art, regardless if they're appreciating enough what they should appreciate, the person who ends up with the short end of the stick is the dev. So it's certainly something to consider.

I feel like I've spent my life considering this question, oscillating between the maybe and the sure.  A favorite chapter in my Tidepool book talks about this. I'm thankful for the last line: "Beyond the clamor of critics lies the heartfelt few. My efforts are for you."

Yet here I am, back to the Land of the Bottom Line .

[teefal]

did the niche connect to the Kickstarter? Hard to say.

Recent empirical evidence suggests "no"

Most people stop doing something they enjoyed since they realise that they would need years of training to be "happy", though us professional artists never are.

My wife is a very talented musician. She never enjoys her own music. When I find adults apologizing for their "bad" Tidepool drawings, I always say they're perfect, the goofier the better, and the kids will love them. Given this permission, the usually find themselves enjoying the task.

they don't have a clear distinction between the pro and the amateur and everyone in their society creates carefree without a self-imposed ideal for realism.

Ursula Lee Guin wrote in one of her books that a certain culture used the same word for work and play.  I've thought about that a lot.

I do think you could polish some art assets, interface and logo for example. This could make an interesting compromise.

The logo was drawn with friends at the very start of the project, as a single swipe.  I'm not married to it but do like that it arose as a single reflexive gesture. The interface is in flux.  I don't much like it.  We're nearly at the point where everything is there, which is when I usually put the shine on it.  It'll look polished.

As for the art assets, I'd love to hire a designer for core elements like the portals and structures and such. What's there now are quick placeholders, not anything to keep. But other than these, all content is player made.  I will do more to showcase the "better" stuff.

[teefal]

Maybe Patreon would be suitable in this situation? Starting a new campaign right after another is probably a weird thing to do, but maybe you can redirect those who wanted to support you, and any newcomers, to a Patreon account, where they can pledge and you'll be guaranteed the money, no matter how much or how little?

The idea of rolling this into a Patron or indigogo makes good business sense, but it personally makes me ill to even consider it.  I think I need a healthy break before I can weather another one of these ... popularity contests.

[teefal]

I think Teefal's demographic is Katie, and not so much as a consumer but as a fellow human being to nurture.

Of course, like Greipur pointed out, one issue is that Katie has no disposable income, and at the moment a full appreciation of this concept requires stage three-almost-four from parents, which is rare.

I've had good success with the Trojan horse pitch ... We'll teach your kids to love STEM and prepare them for the jobs that don't exist yet, meanwhile also teaching them to think for themselves, to become confident in their own gifts.

I was watching an episode of Louie where he goes to his first parent-teacher-assoc meeting. They're all trying to get children more energized. Louie says to the group, "Well  come on, school sucks.  They're bored.  Don't you remember?"  His pitch doesn't go over well.

My trailer kinda says the same thing.  I'm targeting the people who already believe this, not teachers and regular parents.  I thought gamers could relate here.  They seem to one to one, but in the quick click world of Internet attention, not so much.