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[BMcC]

Right on, thanks! 

I'll plug 'er in as soon as I can.

[vitaminNewB]

Hey guys this thread is pretty awesome.

Heh, heh.  Got Beat.   
I thought i'd go on ahead and hack out the climbing animations.
ah well.

I'm going to work out the side one and Rainbow 6 one next if you all don't mind.
But if someone else gets it that's cool.

These things are pretty darn fun!  I'm doing more.

[Arne]

Fast thread is faaast!

Re Special abilities per map
Maybe it's an item he picks up, Karate Manual for the Bruce Lee level, or a Yie-Ar Kung Fu casette tape. But it is a bit out of character. Of course he could log into a console and get to control Cyber-Mecha-Bruce, but that's a ton of more animation work.

I made a Metroid map an included Morph Ball (special move), Bombs, Missiles (1 use), Etank (take one hit)... I don't think he can shoot though. Maybe the missiles are just key items? Or, he can toss them in front of him with a generic throw animation.



To blend in, I made the rock brown, since it's a level in the cave area. However, it might be a little out of character, so it's probably better off as a bonus level/easter egg. I don't know about copyright problems regarding these kind of homages too. Maybe most of the blatant out of character homages should be secrets? I'd like to keep many of the maps original, but I'm doing the homages now because it's the most fun ._.

I don't think special abilities would be out of characters if they're more rare, maybe just occuring on secret maps. I'll have to paint up a few more example screens though, to see what kind of coherrance I'll end up with.

Next one will me Mission Impossible, featuring the Impossible Mission gfx, but with a roof shutter, long shaft, rope, stopping just over the ground, console, laser beams switching on and off in complex patterns.


Xion> I'm just going nuts when doing these maps, trying to think of fun stuff, trying to push diversity to see where the boundries are. I'm trying to do stuff that (I guess) could be coded/scripted easily though, use generic code etc. Bruce Lee says "Punch beyond the target"! I tend to do that a bit too much, but I don't want to be meek.

Re: Bonus items
I was thinking about those games you played as a kid, when you picked up strange pixel stuff. All bonus items could be abstract pixelations called "mystery item", as a homage to that feeling. Collect 'em on all maps and you unlock stuff, or something to that effect.

[BMcC]

I gotta get to bed (it's about 4AM here), but I wanted to make one last response first.

I made a Metroid map...

I see!  That's awesome.    I love seeing these mockup maps, they really get my imagination going.  And it's oh so easy to get them working in game with my tile engine, tee hee. 

Maybe most of the blatant out of character homages should be secrets?

That's probably a good call.  Besides, I don't think there's going to be any lack of original theme ideas!

I'm trying to do stuff that (I guess) could be coded/scripted easily though, use generic code etc.

Don't worry about that -- just let your imagination go wild.  I'll take care of bizness.

All bonus items could be abstract pixelations called "mystery item", as a homage to that feeling. Collect 'em on all maps and you unlock stuff, or something to that effect.

Hey, uh... what do you think about there being hidden panties across the scope of the game?  I think it'd be fun and add little character to the main character.  (Now he's fat AND a pervert!)  Please say yes. 

Aright, time to sleep.  Arne, keep those concepts coming!  They're a big motivation (and inspiration)!

[Arne]

Hehe, yeah, panties sounds good to me. Maybe there could be categories of secret items that unlock different things?

This is very much a half finished WIP. Now it's time for work!

[theSamo]

just stopped by to say that game is gonna pwn.

I'm working on some chipune track, still very early WIP, but it's in .xm (mod) format. and i dunno if it fits the game's theme right.

here you go.

[Arne]

How do you guys feel about Hitpoints?

A couple of options:

InstaDeath
+ Very retro.
+ Simple.
+ Easier map design, you can count on an obstacle being effective.

HealthBar
+ Analog punishment, like the more you touch en enemy, or the more you screw up, the more you pay for it. If you scrape an enemy jumping over it, you won't have to yell OH FUCK! I DIDN'T TOUCH HIM, WHAT THE SHIT FUCK!!! because you harshly died.
+ Stuff can have different danger levels.
+ Mechanics can be based on health depletion and replenishing.

2 Hits
+ You can mess up once but then it's serious and gets exciting.

If damaged, the character could have a different idle animation (strained).

Of course, the maps could just have different health levels (based on health pickups). It's less consistant but it'd allow us to formulate a wider range of challenges. Some dangers could still insta kill if their damage are set high enough. Best of both worlds, but a bit less consistant, meaning it'd be harder to predict what will happen upon contact with danger.


Edit: Who's the PantyMaster? Sho-Nuff! I mean, me!

[Bezzy]

CORE DESIGN QUESTION:

Should the player be able to control the height of his jump ala Mario?  My initial thought is Yes, because I like the idea of putting as many responsive touches into this game as possible.  But I'm also thinking No, 'cause he can only jump one tile high anyway, so there isn't much point.  Still, it might feel better having a little control there, even if it doesn't have an effect.

This was one of the things I was trying to imagine how it would work before, and I have to agree that some height control would feel better (plus air accel mentioned before), even if it had no real effect - just nice detail!

*edit: spelling xP

If you can only jump a short fixed height, then the only real choice you might want in mid air is to get back to the ground faster - to almost "end" your jump more quickly.

In hoopworld we did our jumping like this: you have a fixed impulse velocity for your jump, but as soon as you released the jump button, gravity became much stronger, pulling you out of the air faster. Pretty easy to do. Might be worth an experiment? See if it fits?

[Bezzy]

HealthBar
+ Analog punishment, like the more you touch en enemy, or the more you screw up, the more you pay for it. If you scrape an enemy jumping over it, you won't have to yell OH FUCK! I DIDN'T TOUCH HIM, WHAT THE SHIT FUCK!!!
+ Stuff can have different danger levels.
+ Mechanics can be based on health depletion and replenishing.

HairBar?
The more you're hurt, the less haNah. Will require too much animation work.

2 Hits
+ You can mess up once but then it's serious and gets exciting.

For this, would it be possible to have your "hits" or even "lives" following you around like shadows? So, there's a clone of you, semi transparent who is doing exactly as you do, but a half a second later. When you get hit, he flashes (few seconds of invunerability) and then becomes the main control character (no lag).

I have to say though, I do hope that this game will be fairly forgiving - allow you to continue infinitely etc. but wipe your score on continue. I dunno.

[Arne]

Re: Difficulty
The plan for the death penalty in the design doc was to have the last completed screen become 'unplayed' if all lives are lost, maybe forcing the player to take another route. I don't know how that will work though.

The levels could vary in difficulty. Shorter routes (routes to the keys that unlock the boss) are harder. The perimeter levels are easier.


Re: Showing damage
I think having a ghost player life (like the effect in some castlevania games) could be a bit distracting and strange.

He could palette change the color of his blue overall suit. Or like I suggested (edited in my prev post) have a different idle animation.


Re: Jump control
Hmm It's a tricky one. I'd prefer some air control.

I can see the advantage from a puzzle perspective to have certain set rules though.

But Castlevania 1 jumps are so annoying. I'd vote for some air control stuff. As for jump height... It's frustrating to be un-plausably (is that a word?) limited in your movement, like not being able to get somewhere because your character insists on jumping a certain height.

I like how Metroid is. I made a little example code for BlitzMax. I just set the upward velocity as long as the button is pressed, then it runs out and gravity takes effect. Since the Character is so small, this linear treatment doesn't show much.

Source:
http://web.telia.com/~u48508900/platform/jump.bmx
I can compile an .exe, but I don't have any space left on that server (it's 1.8mb).

Edit: I was mistaken. Metroid 1 does it differently, you just stop abruptly in your jump if you let go of the button, otherwise you follow the whole gravity curve.

[DrPetter]

Edit: I was mistaken. Metroid 1 does it differently, you just stop abruptly in your jump if you let go of the button, otherwise you follow the whole gravity curve.

Yeah, Metroid's way is great for when you want mad precision when jumping between single tiles over lava or something, but it's really not as comfortable as the smooth variant you find in Mario for instance (which is probably a lot like what you described, with the "jump force" running out when you let go of the button)
I don't think the Metroid jump would really work for a tiny character making short jumps either.

On another note; when somebody said there'd be a "sidekick" on one level I naturally thought "companion" of some sort. That could be cool, with little "pets" or friendly characters on some levels that maybe follow you around and which you can use to solve certain puzzles. Maybe a chunky little dog/turtle that you could use as a stepping stone to jump across or above something? Also there could be aggressive ones that would run/fly ahead in front of you and take care of bad guys.
They would always be restricted to one level though, going with the theme.

[Madgarden]

Personally, I'd prefer instadeath for something like this. It makes the puzzle-room layouts and solutions that much more definitive. However, if there are enemies moving around unpredictably, then the standard 2-3 hit death might be more appropriate, as long as the puzzles don't let you squeak past them by taking a hit.

Sometimes the player can alter gravity, find a jetpack, jumpshoes, magnetboots, invulnerbility, weapons, jump on trampolines, or other wierd stuff (temporary for each screen).

The more themed rooms there are, the more it's going to seem like you need a special "something extra" available to you in those rooms. 'Nuff said.

Lovin' the mockups! :D

[Arne]

More finished now. It's gonna drive people nuts!


I was listening to these two songs while making the Mission Impossible Screen.
RAtM One Man Army
TTC Dans le club


Edit: (Edited)
It's silent aside from some ambient noise. The lasers in the shaft fire rythmically.

Where is our hero? Wosh! At a button press he comes falling down the shaft at great speed, dodging timing the lasers just right (or not).

The rope yanks! He hovers just above the electrical floor that is sparking threatingly. *Tap tap tap* on the keyboard. DWWOoooohh... Something turns off and the floor changes color.

He gets down, and the rope either just disappears up, or he magically rolls it up with a cute little animation.

He strikes a pose!

The "One Man Army" tune kicks in.

He's it.

[Madgarden]

Wait, that's the same GIF as the last time. Where's the new stuff? TEASE!

Edit: Darn Opera.

[Arne]

Hard refresh it. (Shift+Refesh or something)

Edit: "Infidels - Murder that sound" is neat.

[BMcC]

The more themed rooms there are, the more it's going to seem like you need a special "something extra" available to you in those rooms. 'Nuff said.

"Nuff said" nothin'!  1) We'll figure out the core design soon, but I imagine most of that stuff won't be theme-specific and B) we're going to start with the concept of course, but once the game starts coming together, we'll need to feel things out from there.  We can't just suspend discussion 'cause the concept said something.

Re: Instadeath

I think you're right about that.  It fits with the style of movement and fall damage and such.  Though maybe a certain few things would only wound you and/or you could acquire protection from them?  I like the idea of differing idle animations.

Ooh, also a neat idea would be traps, enemies, etc. that just put you in a bad position or start to kill you, but give you an opportunity to escape.  Someone (PoV?) mentioned earlier the idea of the claw picking up the character and trying to drop him on a hazard or hold him in front of an enemy or something,  but giving him a chance to wiggle free.  That sounds cool to me.  PLUS, you could use some things like that to your advantage (like maybe being carried over spikes).

More finished now. It's gonna drive people nuts!

SO awesome!  So it's a mix of Impossible Mission and Mission Impossible?  Craziness, I tell you!

Re: Intro Animations

What do you think about an elaborate intro animation for the first room of a given theme?  Then the rest just being him coming through the door?

@Everybody:

I did his movement and jumping last night, yo!  Nothin' more to figure out until y'all have got playable builds.

[DrPetter]

Arne: Awesome, awesome. And maybe the other areas of the level could be blacked-out before you open the doors/whatever to reveal them? So initially you see just the shaft and the rest is black, then when you open the door you see the corridor as well. Then when you go up the elevator you see the entire laser room, etc.
It would really add to the suspense.

[Madgarden]

"Nuff said" nothin'!  1) We'll figure out the core design soon, but I imagine most of that stuff won't be theme-specific and B) we're going to start with the concept of course, but once the game starts coming together, we'll need to feel things out from there.  We can't just suspend discussion 'cause the concept said something.

Heh, ahh... sorry I didn't mean it like you took it; rather "enough of me flapping on about it." I embrace wholeheartedly the spirit of open discussion, and have already stated my thoughts on the point more than originally intended. My bad!

Ooh, also a neat idea would be traps, enemies, etc. that just put you in a bad position or start to kill you, but give you an opportunity to escape.  Someone (PoV?) mentioned earlier the idea of the claw picking up the character and trying to drop him on a hazard or hold him in front of an enemy or something,  but giving him a chance to wiggle free.  That sounds cool to me.  PLUS, you could use some things like that to your advantage (like maybe being carried over spikes).

Lovely! Perhaps some context-sensitive traps that you need to jump out of in a certain way?

What do you think about an elaborate intro animation for the first room of a given theme?  Then the rest just being him coming through the door?

BTW, how are you planning to do the room transitions? I had this vision of a 2-axis elevator scene violently carting you off to the next room through tunnels. ie. the car would lurch horizontally for a ways, then slam into a vertical descent, finally *BAM*, you hit the bottom and the doors open and you're ejected unceremoniously into the new room.

[Bezzy]

Re: Jump control
Hmm It's a tricky one. I'd prefer some air control.

I can see the advantage from a puzzle perspective to have certain set rules though.

But Castlevania 1 jumps are so annoying. I'd vote for some air control stuff. As for jump height... It's frustrating to be un-plausably (is that a word?) limited in your movement, like not being able to get somewhere because your character insists on jumping a certain height.

Hmm. Maybe I explained the hoop wrld approach wrong, too.

Basically, upon pressing Jump your upward force is set to a set amount. (It only takes some A-Level math to figure out what this value should be for a target maximum height under fixed gravity).

While you have the jump button HELD immediately after jumping, the Gravity on the player is set to something quite low.

When the peak of the arc is reached OR the jump button is released (before the peak), the Gravity is set back to "normal" - ie the gravity you'd feel if you simply fell off a ledge.

Even if you hold the jump button after the peak of the jump is reached, the gravity still stays Normal.

As a result, no matter where you release the jump, be it quickly or slowly, you always get a nice arc going up, AND down (rather than a linear movement up, and then an arc down).

That's really why I chose to do it in hw... I played City of Heros, and their jump is just constant upward movement until you reach your jump "runs out". That's fine for short periods but then it feels wrong when you have super jumps. You just feel like you're on an invisible escalator. Obviously, in this game, we're dealing with short periods of time here - smallish jumps, so it may not be a big deal.

Then you have something like the Hulk or Crack down, where the shape of the jump parabola is fine, but you have to "charge" your jumps before actually jumping... that can be learned, but It doesn't feel as immediate or intuitive to me (although in the hulk, rather nicely, practically every move is chargeable, so it's consistent at the very least). So, what I'm suggesting here is just a natural compromise - instant jump, varying jump height, and always a nice arc.

Just a thought though, eh?

Oh, and none of this would affect the lateral air accelerate that you could have (which I'm also very much for).

[BMcC]

My bad!

Aw, don't worry about it.  I'm not mad or anything, I just misunderstood. 

I did his movement and jumping last night, yo!  Nothin' more to figure out until y'all have got playable builds.

Psst... Bez...

I already did all the stuff you're suggesting.