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[nayon]

Here have a demo:

http://www.mediafire.com/file/yjkrmjkjy5z/polychromatoma_demo1.exe

Controls are explained by pressing f1.

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Original post:

Frustration platformers

What's your take on them? Stuff like I Wanna Be The Guy, Owata, Catmario etc. I for one love playing them and making them, one of my more famous works being this knytt story http://nifflas.ni2.se/forum/index.php?topic=1157.0 , but some people really dislike them.

I have an unfinished game lying around on my hard drive, and while waiting on the horror thing's level from Jaleho, I decided to work it towards completion. Any input you guys have on this kind of stuff? There seems to be a thin line between unplayably annoying and ecstatically frustrating.

I believe in precise controls in this kind of game, no acceleration/deceleration movement or stuff of that kind. Variable jumping is dangerous, it can add new depth and annoyance to certain pixel perfect jumps, but the variability can also kill pixel perfect jumps. For that reason I usually prefer double jumping.

There's also the issue of savespot frequency. Too much and it's not fun, too little and it's not fun.

Also, Random-Shit-Out-Of-Nowhere-That-Kills-You yay or nay? I say yay.

Feel free to add and answer more questions.

[godsavant]

Is this another Hang'Em thread?

[Fifth]

Nay, nay, nay!

Instant-kill stuff that pops out of nowhere without any indication of its presence or how to avoid it is what I call bad game design.  And I really don't think IWBTG deserve to be lauded as it is.

[Candlejack]

IWBTG also has no flow in jumping at all.

[Valter]

Oh, I love 'em. I play lots of YMM's works, and I beat IWBTG.

The trick is methodology. You should catch the player off-guard, but once he knows what he's up against, he should be able to finish without too much trouble.

I say yay to unexpected deaths. I would recommend putting them near save points/start of levels, though. They should be more and more obvious the farther they are from a save point, or else it will frustrate players who had to go through several difficult jumps or maneuvers just to get to that point. But in the end, I think well-telegraphed instant-kill traps can be priceless.

Remember to shake things up! Especially if you're going to go no-inertia. I prefer no-inertia, but you're going to have to have sufficiently varied level design for it to work properly. Conceivably, once the player knows how to use the character, it will make all but the most precise jumps totally redundant. The green and yellow jump-walls in IWBTG are a good example. They add new mechanics with their own challenges, but they keep the game fresh.

[Anarkex]

I'd prefer the challenge of a game to be in mastering the game's mechanics rather than memorizing disappearing platforms or getting punished for DARING to set foot on a platform where some invisible threat will kill you. I love difficult games, but I like to watch myself get better as I play them rather than hit an impenetrable wall of death, try for an hour to pass it, and give up.

IWBTG should serve the purpose of being an end-all be-all to frustration platformers. I think the only real way to make games like that legitimate is to do exactly what it did: make the challenges possible to understand and predict (for the most part), allow the use of many checkpoints, make the game of truly epic scope, and make the ways to die as entertaining as the methods of avoiding them. Anything less is just crappy game design.

[GregWS]

Dude, you created this thread without any mentioned of Jumper/YMM in the first post!  BI think you need to edit the post and mention him; I mean, who's more "frustration platformer" than YMM?

Anyway, yes, I don't get why I like them, but I do, and every once and awhile while playing them I feel a tinge of guilt that I may in fact be wasting my time.....then I just keep playing.

Oh, and I didn't realize you made KS levels; I'll definitely have to try that one out. 

[kyn]

I hate them, but can't stop admiring them and the ones who manage to beat it

[Renton]

Dunno if it counts, but I liked Nikujin a lot. IWBTG, not so much.

[salade]

damn straight nikujin counts.

[Renton]

I crossed swords with many a naked man in that game.




Wait.

[Ivan]

Yeah it's kind of like basejumping or something. I would never in my life do it myself, but you have to admire the crazy motherfuckers that do it.

[godsavant]

Spelunky unintentionally falls under this category.

[Fifth]

I'd say Spelunky is just the opposite.  Instead of memorizing where all of the cheap deaths are, you learn what they look like, how to avoid them, and how far you can push certain things.  You're learning the rules of the game instead of the layout of the level, it's just that the rules happen to be pretty harsh.

That's what I'd call good game design.

[Fuzz]

Anyway, yes, I don't get why I like them, but I do, and every once and awhile while playing them I feel a tinge of guilt that I may in fact be wasting my time.....then I just keep playing.

That's exactly how I feel about games like this. But they end up being so addictive! I don't like it when people bash IWBTG because they say it's easy to design levels like that. It seems like it must have taken a lot of work to get each screen right, and to actually make it possible. IWBTG also has really pretty deaths and all the things that kill you are so unexpected and weird that you can't help but laugh, such as the screen where the moon falls down and destroys everything and you have to hide in a hole. I haven't played it in a while, though, because I got stuck at Mother Brain after beating Mike Tyson, Mecha-Birdo, Dracula, Kraidgief, and the Bowser/Wart/Wily boss. I should play it again. I Wanna Save the Kids is also pretty fun (also by Kayin).

[Valter]

I'd say Spelunky is just the opposite.  Instead of memorizing where all of the cheap deaths are, you learn what they look like, how to avoid them, and how far you can push certain things.  You're learning the rules of the game instead of the layout of the level, it's just that the rules happen to be pretty harsh.

That's what I'd call good game design.

Right, but I'd call that somewhat boring game design. Sure, you'll never see the same thing twice, but randomized generation means that you can't script much. IWBTG had many a section that killed you in a very amusing way. None of that with Spelunky, in which dieing is made more frustrating just because it's "oh, I got hit by another arrow", or "oh, gee, another yeti". It doesn't have nearly the variety of death traps as IWBTG does.

EDIT: You made Alone? *Smacks Forehead* I played it a while ago, probably at least a year. It was fun, but I couldn't for the life of me get... the blue key, was it? It required ludicrously accurate umbrella double jumps. I'm not even sure if I was doing the right things to get it.

[Noel Berry]

Personally, I love playing and making platformers.

The only time I dislike platformers is when they contain a lot of boring shooting/killing stuff, and therefor taking away from the challenge of actually platforming (jumping around, etc).

Frustrating platformers are usually fun to play. I usually beat a few levels, get frustrated, stop playing for a week, and then come back to it and beat another few levels.

[acidBatterie]

derek yu is such an ass because i cant stop playing spelunky, me and four friends all spelunk through economics.  i think i'm putting in close to 4 hours a day getting raped by yetis while slowly giving some dark-skinned fro 3 grand a run.  i have yet to see the boss.  god o god spelunky!! 

[letsap]

If you can remember a phone number, you can beat these kinds of games. I don't really think they have that good of gameplay, but they can be fun for a little while I'll admit.

[Fifth]

Nah, it's more like taking a long history test with a lot of disconnected dates.  Except you don't know any of the material beforehand, and every time you get a question wrong you have to start the whole test over.  And after every page, you have to get out of your chair and jump through some hoops.  And the teacher comes by and punches you between certain questions.  But it's always the same questions, so you get to learn when to dodge.