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[JobLeonard]

That's technically quite impressive, but you kind of chose the worse example to demonstrate the issues with playing many samples: a source of (almost) white noise!

One issue you allude to that if the different samples start at almost the same time, you get beats, which does indeed sound weird. But beyond that, the first example is noisy, but increasing the noise until it becomes a roaring thunder is how real waterfalls sound too! But having just one loop play at a time breaks the immersion in this particular case because it doesn't make the sound have more "white noise".


Maybe you could extend your new area sounds system to mess with layers of sounds and volume at the same time and get best of both worlds?

- set a fixed number of max samples (say, up to three waterfall tracks), set up to play with a fixed offset so that it avoids forming beats
- increase nr of samples played with nr of waterfalls, up to the limit
- make the total volume depend on total tracks + area in a way that it has constant "power" for a given area of waterfall

[Ishi]

That's technically quite impressive, but you kind of chose the worse example to demonstrate the issues with playing many samples: a source of (almost) white noise!

One issue you allude to that if the different samples start at almost the same time, you get beats, which does indeed sound weird. But beyond that, the first example is noisy, but increasing the noise until it becomes a roaring thunder is how real waterfalls sound too! But having just one loop play at a time breaks the immersion in this particular case because it doesn't make the sound have more "white noise".


Maybe you could extend your new area sounds system to mess with layers of sounds and volume at the same time and get best of both worlds?

- set a fixed number of max samples (say, up to three waterfall tracks), set up to play with a fixed offset so that it avoids forming beats
- increase nr of samples played with nr of waterfalls, up to the limit
- make the total volume depend on total tracks + area in a way that it has constant "power" for a given area of waterfall

That's a fair point I don't necessarily want the waterfalls to become too noisy, since there'll be other audio going on (music, and more important gameplay stuff) that should also be audible. But doing it in a controlled way like you suggest would be a good route to take.

The way I would implement it is something I'd already been considering, which is to add the layering concept at the Control stage. To review the current set up:

WaterfallMainLoopArea area sounds are combined -> WaterfallMainLoopAreaControl control converts area to volume -> WaterfallMainLoop sound plays a single, loop sound wave

And here's the data that controls this.

Code:

<AreaSound name="WaterfallMainLoopArea"
	soundname="WaterfallMainLoop"
	areaControl="WaterfallMainLoopAreaControl"/>
	
<Control name="WaterfallMainLoopAreaControl">
	<Volume>
		<Keyframe input="0" output="0.0"/>
		<Keyframe input="10" output="0.3"/>
		<Keyframe input="30" output="0.6"/>
		<Keyframe input="120" output="1.0"/>
	</Volume>
</Control>

<Sound name="WaterfallMainLoop"
	   filename="Environment/Waterfall.ogg"
	   loop="1"
	   stream="0"
	   volume="0.6"
	   sustain="1.0"/>

I already have the ability to set the WaterfallMainLoop sound to play two sound waves at once, like so:

Code:

<Sound name="WaterfallMainLoop">
	<Play filename="Environment/Waterfall.ogg"
	   loop="1"
	   stream="0"
	   volume="0.6"
	   sustain="1.0"/>
	<Play filename="Environment/WaterfallNoise.wav"
	   loop="1"
	   stream="0"
	   volume="0.3"
	   sustain="1.0"/>
</Sound>

The limitation is that the volume calculated by the WaterfallMainLoopAreaControl control would apply to both waves at once. The new part of the system would be to assign something like a layer number to the sound waves, and allow the control to calculate separate volumes for each layer. So then as the area increases, the waterfall wave could initially become louder, and eventually that fades off to be replaced by a more noisy version.

(Following paragraph edited for clarity)
An alternative to this layer system would be to simply have the waterfalls play two entirely separate Area Sounds that work in conjunction with each other. One playing the normal sound, that fades off as the area increases, and one playing the noise sound, that only fades in once the area increases. That would be less efficient however as the area and position calculations for all the waterfalls would be done twice each frame, one for each Area Sound.

Edit - forgot to mention the nice point that this would mean the ability for a control to adjust individual layers of sounds would be a general feature, not actually related to the area sound feature. So could be used by other sounds too, if I needed to get that in-depth!

[JobLeonard]

I could also...

Oh dear, I hope I didn't send you down an over-engineering rabbit hole with my last remark, hahaha

Sounds like you got some pretty clear ideas of how to handle this though!

[Ishi]

I could also...

Oh dear, I hope I didn't send you down an over-engineering rabbit hole with my last remark, hahaha

Sounds like you got some pretty clear ideas of how to handle this though!

On the contrary, you gave me inspiration on how to approach fleshing out the waterfall sounds! I hadn't really thought about the quality of waterfalls being literal white noise. After thinking about it some more, and trying some different sounds out, I'm actually using white noise as the main waterfall sound now. Thanks for the idea!

The waterfalls now have the following sounds:

• Area Sound for whole waterfall: White noise loop
• Area Sound when impacting a solid surface: Splatter loop
• Area Sound when impacting liquid: Splashy loop. (This is the sound I used to use for the whole waterfall)
• One-off sound when initially colliding with a solid object: Splatter
• One-off sound when initially colliding with a liquid: Splash

I think that's definitely improved, at least where it's good enough for me to stop tinkering and move on.

Now I just need to do the same sounds for air updrafts... and lava falls...

[JobLeonard]

Oh thank goodness..

It does sound a lot better, although the splatter loop sounds a bit too much like a single, well-defined stream. A more "showerhead" like splashing noise might be more appropriate.

Also, I just realized I should have linked this in my earlier messages, but this is a great site with ambient sounds, including waterfalls:

https://mynoise.net/

Also, the splash loop reminded me of this:

[Ishi]

It does sound a lot better, although the splatter loop sounds a bit too much like a single, well-defined stream. A more "showerhead" like splashing noise might be more appropriate.

Another good point, not one I really have any willpower to address right now, but as with all sounds, I'm at least aware for the potential for future improvement

Also, I just realized I should have linked this in my earlier messages, but this is a great site with ambient sounds, including waterfalls:

https://mynoise.net/

Seems like a nice website, might try to make use of this. I occasionally enjoy Rainy Mood so it seems like that but with more variety. Unfortunately not good to use when working on sound effects! That's one of the things I dislike about working on audio, is that it's hard to do while listening to music or other audio, which I always do when working.

Also, the splash loop reminded me of this:

I was aware of this before but forgot; it's interesting! I hope you're not trying to suggest that waterfalls need to sound different in hotter areas

Audio overhaul progress update!

New update on the state of my audio todo list:

Week before: 67 / 162 = 41%
Last week: 91 / 177 = 51%
This week: 105 / 179 = 58%

Not the best progress in terms of number of todo items complete, thanks to spending a long time on the waterfalls. I've done the waterfalls, got some sounds for poison falls in too (which are the same but just pitch shifted slightly, since the poison is meant to be a little more viscous), and adding sounds for updrafts too. I need to look at some different tasks for the sake of my sanity so I'll tackle sounds for lava falls in the future - for now they just sound like waterfalls.

I'll also admit that Animal Crossing took up a little too much of my free time this week; hopefully I can find a good routine where I don't play quite so much of it! ^_^

Apologies if the devlog isn't super varied recently - but it accurately reflects the grind of implementing all these sounds!

[JobLeonard]

RE: different splash in hot areas. Hahaha, no of course not! Just thought it was a fun bit of trivia, plus a good explanation of why this is such a difficult topic to get just right. We have a subconscious sense of when things are off, but not such a good conscious awareness of how it should be.

By the way, just to be clear: the samples on mynoise.net are not royalty free, but it's still a good source of ideas I would say. Especialy since you can deconstruct high and low frequencies with the sliders.

And hey, maybe someone else will volunteer with creating some ambient sounds for you though, and then you can just pick different samples for different levels

[oahda]

The dynamic stuff going on with the waterfall audio is so cool! I do agree that it sounds a bit more like a small tap than a big waterfall so it's worth perfecting since everything else about this game is so polished.

[McMutton]

I think since the character's actions are using kind of a lo-fi sound style, you should follow through and use that style for the rest of the sounds, as well.

Listening to the first video on the page, her roll sound effect is the kind of sound you might want to go for- it's got that 'wet' and bassy noise sound that would work swimmingly for a waterfall.

[linebyline]

Super cool, especially after the white noise and the separate splash and splatter sounds were added. I don't have a ton of experience around waterfalls, so grain of salt at the ready here, but it seems like you've really captured the feeling of a roaring waterfall.

However, I'd advise against having the waterfalls ever be totally in one ear or the other. It left me feeling like my ear was plugged up or something. Realistically, if it's close enough that you can hear it at the volume you're using, you'll be hearing it in both ears even if it's all the way off to one side or the other. Besides, even if we treat the human head as a perfect sound-dampening wall, the player will be looking at the screen, not 90 degrees to the right or left, so the sound still needs to seem like it's in front of the player.

By the way, that juggling idle animation is so cute! Is that new? Wouldn't surprise me at all if you've shown it off before and I just forgot.

[Schoq]

I agree that stereo separation in general is a bit extreme, at least with headphones. Maybe this is something there could be an option for?

[Ishi]

Thanks all for the suggestions!

I think since the character's actions are using kind of a lo-fi sound style, you should follow through and use that style for the rest of the sounds, as well.

Yeah the weird juxtaposition of very retro-style sounds against more realistic sounds is an issue, one that I'm kind of ignoring for now and will figure out later if I need to bring in help to revamp some of the audio.

Listening to the first video on the page, her roll sound effect is the kind of sound you might want to go for- it's got that 'wet' and bassy noise sound that would work swimmingly for a waterfall.

The problem is that I need the waterfall to be background noise and not clash with any of the existing sounds, especially one that's so linked to the player's core movement. I want the waterfall to be audible but not in a way that interferes with the player hearing the normal gameplay sounds. I'm happy with the waterfall for now so just got to move on.

However, I'd advise against having the waterfalls ever be totally in one ear or the other. It left me feeling like my ear was plugged up or something. Realistically, if it's close enough that you can hear it at the volume you're using, you'll be hearing it in both ears even if it's all the way off to one side or the other. Besides, even if we treat the human head as a perfect sound-dampening wall, the player will be looking at the screen, not 90 degrees to the right or left, so the sound still needs to seem like it's in front of the player.

I agree that stereo separation in general is a bit extreme, at least with headphones. Maybe this is something there could be an option for?

This is a good call. The sounds are panned left/right based on their position, and this was going all the way to 100% to the left or right. Through speakers this sounds ok, because it reaches both of your ears, but is quite extreme when heard through headphones. This is that kind of issue that I'm subconsciously aware of but don't think to change it until someone suggests it!

I've limited the panning to 90% at most now. I don't think adding an option for this is worthwhile - it's not like that last 10% of panning really enhances the experience of the game in any way. You can still hear the difference between left and right but now it sounds a bit more natural through headphones.

By the way, that juggling idle animation is so cute! Is that new? Wouldn't surprise me at all if you've shown it off before and I just forgot.

Thanks! I've had a variety of idle anims in the game for a while. I don't think I ever explicitly showed them in the devlog, this one just happened to make its way into the video.

Todo list progress update

Continuing slow but steady progress through the list.

Week before: 67 / 162 = 41%
Week before: 91 / 177 = 51%
Last week: 105 / 179 = 58%
This week: 126 / 183 = 68%

Not much worth showing off, sorry - just chipping away at tons of different sounds throughout the whole game!

[JobLeonard]

I've had a variety of idle anims in the game for a while. I don't think I ever explicitly showed them in the devlog

(you know what I'm asking for)

[Ishi]

I've had a variety of idle anims in the game for a while. I don't think I ever explicitly showed them in the devlog

(you know what I'm asking for)

I wasn't really planning on showing off the idle anims, but you've convinced me.

Idle Anims

Here are a selection of some of Leilani's idle animations!



You can see two types of idle anim here.

Occasionally when Leilani stops moving she'll do a short animation - seen here as the brief head turn for small Leilani and the shoulder roll for Fire Leilani. These short anims are meant to make her feel a bit more lively during normal play, where you won't be standing still for long enough to see the other idle anims. I only have these two anims in the game, which are the same for all powerups, but I may add a third.

After standing still for a little longer she'll do a random idle anim. There are three of these for each powerup, with the Fire and Water ones being specifically to that element, and the ones for small and big Leilani being fairly generic.

Until yesterday some of these idle anims were absent - e.g. Fire Leilani only had one anim - so I spent part of the day filling in the missing ones. I also added sounds to all of the anims!

[JobLeonard]

 

Thank you for that wonderful little Easter present!

So much personality in these animations - of the ones shown the "ready to rumble" idle of small Leilani is my fav. Clearly even when small she's ready to show people who's boss

[oahda]

I actually hadn’t realised she could be either small or big before now!

[Ishi]

Audio Overhaul progress update

Over the long easter weekend I put some more time into the audio polish. Mostly posting this update just to prove to myself that progress is being made and the end* is nearly in sight!

*the end of this audio polish pass, not development in general

March 14: 67 / 162 = 41%
March 21: 91 / 177 = 51%
March 29: 105 / 179 = 58%
April 04: 126 / 183 = 68%
April 13: 163 / 191 = 85%

The second number, which is the size of the todo list, keeps changing as I add more items or break items down into smaller ones.

[Dr. Büni]

I remember way back when you introduced the boss character (don't remember her name, but she piloted a robot), and you mentioned how she had a lot of personality unlike Leilani herself, which was certainly the case. However, those idle animations do give her a little bit of character, which I appreciate. Having bits of personality shown in sprite and art work was why I found Sonic so much more interesting than Mario back in 8 and 16 bits days.

Anyways, great work so far.

[JobLeonard]

Hehehe, so when can we see a title screen like this but with Leilani?  





EDIT: although I suppose something comparable to Wario Land would be more appropriate

[essencescape]

I'm really curious about those waterfall levels. Awesome stuff!