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TIGSource ForumsPlayerGamesJonathan Blow and The Witness
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Author Topic: Jonathan Blow and The Witness  (Read 22227 times)
J-Snake
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« Reply #180 on: January 31, 2016, 07:50:19 PM »

I think the game does something interesting in regards to teaching the player its language
It shows you the rules by starting with specific basic puzzles, that is 101 basics of good game design.

Weather the game hit the points in that video is subjective, but I think they at least made a good effort. If you disagree I am curious, how would you have done the Witness, assuming the core concept of solving mazes?

I wouldn't want to create a puzzle system like that in the first place, but if I had to put my hand on it I would at least do the following:

1. Introduce a cleaner and more efficient rule set to panels (too many "edges" within the rules)

2. Greatly reduce the amount of repetitive puzzles and prefer quality over quantity:
   The problem with quantities of little puzzles is that most players won't learn much in practice, they will tend to solve
   them just by little intuition and blind trial and error without greatly grasping solution concepts.

3. Get rid of most of the puzzles requiring memorization or just tedious work: If you already know the solution idea, there is
   no intellectual satisfaction in repeating it X more times.  

4. Know what the game is and what it isn't: If you already know that the core of the game is a collection of panel puzzles,
   then drawing an adventurous touch to it won't work by providing quotes of famous thinkers. They are not within the same
   context. If all you know is that you know nothing waking up on a hollow island, then you lack a context what the adventure
   actually is.
  




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« Reply #181 on: January 31, 2016, 08:47:02 PM »

I agree strongly with points 2 and 4.
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« Reply #182 on: January 31, 2016, 09:29:08 PM »

I like this game because of the simplicity. the puzzles focus on one element only, drawing lines. then the question becomes, how far can you take that? it's simple in an absurd and crazy way, and there are some genuine lightbulb moments that make the line puzzles feel like something much bigger than they really are. to me that's textbook good game design.

about difficulty, the puzzles are less about being genuinely challenging (even though some of them are) -- they are more about making you look at the world in a different way. I love stuff like that, but I can see how some people would be turned off.
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« Reply #183 on: February 01, 2016, 02:11:14 AM »

point 4 from j-snake's post is kind of the exact problem i had with braid. i mean yeah sure, the mechanics are supposed to be "a metaphor" or whatever, but it just feels like a bit of a stretch. so i'm guessing the witness is similar?
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quantumpotato
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« Reply #184 on: February 01, 2016, 11:51:11 AM »

Quote
I'm really afraid the narrative conceit is gonna be art is pointless, science objectivity = best. That'd be views of the world made third hand my your interpretation of them."[/glow]

Anyway, I beat the game today. It's an absolutely beautiful game. The island, while always seeming to me to be a bit tacky when viewed from overhead, is so wonderful to explore on the ground level.

The game really is an epiphany producing machines. It gives you vague or sometimes even misleading notions about what various symbols mean. Much later, it guides you to figuring these errors out one by one. So it does the job. I did feel like this class of puzzle was quite separate from the environmental puzzles. Often they felt repetitive and at other times arbitrary.

The biggest letdown is the total lack of story. The world really begs for an explanation. But you're constantly reminded that you're not really a character in a world that has its own backstory. No, you're just a player playing a video game made by Jonathan Blow and friends. Nothing to see here.

[spoiler]If the game has 'story', my best interpretation is the audiotape at the top of the mountain, near the photographer statue. Human condition and such[/spoiler]

"j-snake has already created a superior version of the witness, at least according to his own principles"

where can I play this?

---

I flipped through a Super Maze Book at a bookstore some years ago. It had mazes like "Cross all 8 exits without overlapping" and the hard ones like "You can't stay on the same color polygon for > 2 turns in a row. Draw a path through the maze". It had some super tricky puzzles in there. If I had known it would turn me into a famous game designer I'd have bought it and made a maze game Smiley
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quantumpotato
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« Reply #185 on: February 01, 2016, 11:59:45 AM »

point 4 from j-snake's post is kind of the exact problem i had with braid. i mean yeah sure, the mechanics are supposed to be "a metaphor" or whatever, but it just feels like a bit of a stretch. so i'm guessing the witness is similar?

Eh, so spoilers, there are secret points you can score in The Witness you can get by drawing lines on things that aren't mazes. They follow the same shape as the maze (big circle then a line). They're pretty obvious when you see them. There is an interesting mechanic where you have to change your perspective to get the circle to line up right or the line part to not be blocked.

That's what I was saying about the maze mechanic being a microcosm of the adventure mechanic (you walking around). I suppose you could take this philosophically or whatever but if you don't, it's still an interesting mechanic. "Once you see it you can't unsee it" kind of stuff, it's fun.

The 3D perspective is absolutely essential to these secret puzzles. The level design that blocks or obfuscates your view becomes part of the secret-maze mechanics. So the "adventure you're on an island" is totally required for this game-mechanic.

Also, the quotes can be hints to the puzzle. 2 examples:

a) There's a puzzle sequence where you're drawing 2 lines simultaneously, and the second one starts fading. At first I thought it was unbeatable and the panel needed more power. Cue audio tape about god being a visible and then invisible force and, lightbulb, I realized the second line was present invisible.

b) There's an audiotape about going up into space and seeing humanity from a new perspective (good human condition speech on its own). Well turns out going up high, turning around and looking down gives you the perspective you need to see many of the secret-mazes that exist in the level geometry.

--

Re point 1 about edges, I just figured out on some of the puzzles that the edge of the map literally counts for containing shapes you have to draw (as opposed to just your line). I liked that mechanic personally. There have been a couple questionable puzzles though but I feel like that's very minor. I can understand how you'd feel this way though.

Point 3: The only issue I had with this one was the super-hedge maze (combine all 4). I had to write things down for that one. Haven't had any other memorization issues though. Curious if you can point out puzzles you felt were too tedious.

Point 2: Absolutely agree with you on preferring quality over quantity. That said, even some of the "repetitive" puzzles show tiny incremental variations on the mechanics which help teach the mechanics. Maybe you'd prefer it if there were fewer, tougher puzzles?

Point 4: Yeah, the island works mechanically (for secret finding I mentioned above), but there really is a disappointing total lack of story. I think the game just picked to focus on the puzzle aspect. (And again, the 3D movement is part of the puzzle solving, it's not 'tacked on').
« Last Edit: February 01, 2016, 12:04:47 PM by quantumpotato » Logged

InfiniteStateMachine
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« Reply #186 on: February 02, 2016, 06:59:17 AM »

Really enjoying the game so far. My partner and I have been been playing it together taking turns on the controller. It's a beautiful island.
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« Reply #187 on: February 02, 2016, 08:01:08 AM »

This thing is legitimately brilliant.

tfw you discover the environment is in itself comprised of loads of 'mazes'
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J-Snake
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« Reply #188 on: February 02, 2016, 08:20:07 AM »

Curious if you can point out puzzles you felt were too tedious.
The water reflection tasks for instance, and all those tasks which are about mapping specific patterns in the local environment to a line pattern on the panel.

Point 2: Absolutely agree with you on preferring quality over quantity. That said, even some of the "repetitive" puzzles show tiny incremental variations on the mechanics which help teach the mechanics. Maybe you'd prefer it if there were fewer, tougher puzzles?
I prefer variations in solution concepts, not variations in mechanics. If you introduce too many mechanical changes/additions around every few corners then the player is occupied catching up with that instead of working towards a deeper understanding of the puzzle world you are creating. The game would be just fine with only 200 puzzles if they were more expressive. Personally, it would contribute to a more rewarding experience.
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« Reply #189 on: February 02, 2016, 06:57:57 PM »



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« Reply #190 on: February 02, 2016, 08:38:32 PM »

nice!
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« Reply #191 on: February 03, 2016, 03:06:42 PM »

Glad to hear that the dev team looks like they will be able to recoup their expenditures Smiley
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« Reply #192 on: February 03, 2016, 05:31:29 PM »

and people said a new myst game couldn't be a financial success
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« Reply #193 on: February 04, 2016, 09:24:33 AM »

there's something about the tetromino puzzles that make them really hard to wrap my mind around and they're really tedious to solve.

i think the island has the best sense of "place" of any game location i've explored in a long time. it's like disney world and i love it
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J-Snake
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« Reply #194 on: February 04, 2016, 10:08:08 AM »

tetromino puzzles
Those are relatively nice, one of my favorites.

it's like disney world and i love it
It helps that everything is made out of plastic;)
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gimymblert
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« Reply #195 on: February 04, 2016, 11:16:00 AM »



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« Reply #196 on: February 04, 2016, 11:21:40 AM »

so interesting how POLARIZING this game is
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Torchkas
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« Reply #197 on: February 04, 2016, 11:22:51 AM »

that's what you get when you do unconventional things
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« Reply #198 on: February 04, 2016, 03:59:33 PM »

This video pretty much explains why I got a refund for the game. It's the first game I ever take back anywhere other than that one time I got a scratched up Mario Galaxy disc. That, and the performance problems.
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« Reply #199 on: February 04, 2016, 06:17:58 PM »

Yeah, you definitely either love it or hate it. You have to love it if you're gonna stick it out through to the end. I've been playing this game incrementally, since bouncing back and forth between puzzles can get exhausting, but it's a beautiful world to exist in. What's really admirable, in my opinion, is how little it patronizes the player. That makes the “a-ha” moments so much more satisfying.
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