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TIGSource ForumsPlayerGamesJonathan Blow and The Witness
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Author Topic: Jonathan Blow and The Witness  (Read 21892 times)
JWK5
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« Reply #80 on: January 21, 2016, 12:21:28 PM »

I don't really like some of his comments he's made but I don't know him and I likely never will and he has no direct bearing on my life or that of anyone I know (that I am aware of). His opinions didn't factor in to me trying Braid any more than Phil Fish's did trying Fez or getting into the music of whatever musicians I like that are probably a million times more the asshole than either of them could ever hope to be, so outside of me just disliking some of John Blow's comments I can't really say I dislike him personally because, again, I've never met him.

I could go off his comments and say I dislike him, but I've said so much stupid shit in my lifetime it is mind boggling especially where my interests are concerned (we all like to think we're sole experts and authorities from time to time when it is something we are passionate about or invested in). I am sure, like anyone, he's a mixed bag and either you like him despite his faults or dislike him despite his positive qualities depending on which resonates with you more.

In my case, at least, I don't dislike him but being more oriented towards trying to help and show people how to do something rather than telling them they shouldn't try his comment that I was referencing previously hits a nerve.

I don't dislike him, I dislike the comment.



EDIT: I just noticed that when I casually type something I throw a comma in every time there is a pause in my thinking even if it really doesn't make sense in the sentence I am typing. I always end up having to go back and edit my post and remove half of them because noticing after the fact drives me crazy. Then I edit the post five or six more times because I notice other shit I fucked up. You'd think I'd proofread my posts before I post them but for some bizarre reason I only notice this shit after I hit post. I've got issues, possibly full on subscriptions.
« Last Edit: January 21, 2016, 12:27:25 PM by JWK5 » Logged
ProgramGamer
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« Reply #81 on: January 21, 2016, 12:34:25 PM »

Sounds like you should use the Preview button a little more :^)
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« Reply #82 on: January 21, 2016, 12:37:43 PM »

Those tweets from Jon Blow that were linked earlier in the thread seemed pretty tame compared to what I've seen Phil Fish post on Twitter. Back in the day he was telling people to choke on his dick and that PCs are for spreadsheets among other colorful statements. I'm not going to defend Jon's behavior but I would certainly consider him the lesser evil of these two.

Ideally, I would also be able to ignore the author behind the games that I play, and enjoy them on their own merits. Sadly I am a flawed human being, like everyone else, and I don't think I will ever be able to complete Fez without having the impression tainted by my opinion of the developer.
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JWK5
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« Reply #83 on: January 21, 2016, 12:50:02 PM »

Sounds like you should use the Preview button a little more :^)
I just noticed there was a preview button... Embarrassed





It's a shame I'll probably never ever use it.
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ProgramGamer
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« Reply #84 on: January 21, 2016, 12:55:18 PM »

Oh, while I have you here, I should mention that I have facebook notifications enabled now, so I'll get your messages in a timely fashion!
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TeeGee
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« Reply #85 on: January 21, 2016, 12:58:46 PM »

"Making a game for somewhere like Steam, that people are going to want to pay for, is a lot of work," Braid developer Jonathan Blow told Ars. "If someone is able to do that much work, it's hard for me to think they can't come up with $100. Maybe you can think of some extreme case of someone in the developing world who is using a computer they got for free or something, but I think if you show someone like a publisher, Indie Fund, or a site like Kickstarter a strong game, it is pretty easy to get $100."
Publishers, Indie Fund, Kickstarter... All readily available to young indies in the developing world.  Roll Eyes

Honestly, the full quote shows just how clueless he is even more than the tl:dr version. I think that's the thing with Jon. He's a little arrogant, but mostly he's just living in that SanFran bubble that disconnects him from the reality of the rest of the world. I also remember him saying something to the effect that a $100k-earning game is a failure not worth the time, which immediately makes my working class fists reach for a pitchfork. Wink


But while many people who make games can't afford to live comfortably, coming up with $100 for a commercial game -- no matter how small -- is very easy in this day and age.

If you can't generate $100 you don't have any business trying to sell your game - either your game cannot generate revenue on its own, or you don't have the resources to market it to make it viable.
This is just so untrue! Coming up with $100 (or €100 in EU) can be pretty hard for many people, especially given how young indie devs tend to be. I've actually borrowed money to promising indie devs here, who simply couldn't afford the Greenlight fee. Their games then proceeded to earn much more than that obviously, but those $100 were really a significant barrier.

Not saying that it's some fortune or that a talented young dev can't procure it some way, but have some perspective, man. Not everyone lives in the US / Western EU. Your minimum wage is higher than what majority of the world would consider upper-class salary, and you don't get a monopoly on talented people.
Smiley
« Last Edit: January 21, 2016, 01:49:17 PM by TeeGee » Logged

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« Reply #86 on: January 21, 2016, 01:40:14 PM »

I've actually borrowed money to promising indie devs here, who simply couldn't afford the Greenlight fee. Their games then proceeded to earn much more than that obviously, but those $100 were really a significant barrier.

This is an example of what I mean though -- I would gladly loan or give someone $100 for a one time greenlight now that I have decent income, and there are thousands of people in the scene like us. Not to mention all the banks, publishers, etc of the world.

Not saying that it's some fortune or that a talented young dev can't procure it some way, but have some perspective, man. Not everyone lives in the US / Western EU. Your minimum wage is higher than what majority of the world would consider upper-class salary, and you don't get a monopoly on talented people.
Smiley

That's a fair point -- although I have struggled financially, my lens is a little distorted by the fact that even when I didn't have much, the work I did have was paid at a decent rate. Thanks for pointing that out.
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« Reply #87 on: January 21, 2016, 02:24:10 PM »

Quote
I also remember him saying something to the effect that a $100k-earning game is a failure not worth the time, which immediately makes my working class fists reach for a pitchfork.

I guess when you spend 7-8 years on a single game 100k probably is a failure.

(this is a joke about the witness (also, slightly less jokingly i think he invested like 4 million so 100k wouldn't recoup))
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« Reply #88 on: January 21, 2016, 02:28:51 PM »

Yeah, though he wasn't talking about his own game but in regards to the "indieapocalypse". As in: it's not worth it anymore, if you can't make millions like back in the 2010. Which I can understand from his point of view, but again, not everyone has to be a Sillicon Valley millionaire.
« Last Edit: January 22, 2016, 02:39:23 AM by TeeGee » Logged

Tom Grochowiak
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« Reply #89 on: January 21, 2016, 07:54:47 PM »

I may just be assuming Jonathan meant his comment as an insult/subtweet towards some people, but the comment about making a game without calculus really irks me. I've got lots of experience with partial differential equations, advanced vibration dynamics, fluid dynamics etc. from my Mech.Engineering education so I feel It's fair for me to make a judgement on this, so here goes: Even the most basic Cal-1 & Cal-2 & classic mechanics rarely ever appears in any code I find myself, or most other indie devs using in MAKING their games. (I'm not saying they aren't indirectly using systems designed from these)

A accurate statement about math education and game development would be: trying to make a game without trigonometry or an understanding of vector math would not be great... and I do see john go on to make a similar statement about linear algebra which I can partially agree with, But Calculus? Most engines handle that stuff for you and have systems for the typical things that would require some type of calculus. Implying you'd struggle without calculus when all the engines available today pretty much take care of anything that needs it is just weird. Yes, fundamentally a lot of the systems you'll be using or the "tricks" you'll find online are derived from advanced math/physics, but you don't need to be able to understand for example, Lagrangian mechanics to use Box2D, and honestly knowing it wont help you either. Most people just plug and chug through these systems and you only need the math in designing them (and even then the hard work isn't due to the really elementary calculus).

If you're interested in making efficient and novel systems in your games, knowing as much math and physics as you can will be helpful and I highly encourage it, but if you're interested in actually making a game and lack those skills it doesn't mean your game isn't worth making and your passion worth pursuing, it doesn't mean you're "in for a rough time", It just means use unity or an existing similar tool so you can focus on the game itself, not on the boilerplate.
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« Reply #90 on: January 21, 2016, 09:36:19 PM »

P I S S B O Y S
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Dragonmaw
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« Reply #91 on: January 21, 2016, 09:47:01 PM »

the chronicle of the piss jug
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FK in the Coffee
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« Reply #92 on: January 21, 2016, 11:18:58 PM »

Bob's Game/10
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JWK5
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« Reply #93 on: January 21, 2016, 11:36:32 PM »

I don't want to ruin it for you all, but at the end of the game it turns out the whole piss jug endeavor is actually a metaphor for the creation of the first Egg McMuffin.
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jamesprimate
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« Reply #94 on: January 22, 2016, 09:03:31 AM »


That P.Y.S.T joke was top notch   Hand Clap
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Dragonmaw
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« Reply #95 on: January 22, 2016, 09:28:04 AM »

worth reading daphny's jon blow take imo https://t.co/vCuWqwxxzu
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« Reply #96 on: January 23, 2016, 02:10:04 PM »

dragonmaw, is that your stream in that last vine
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Dragonmaw
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« Reply #97 on: January 23, 2016, 03:11:53 PM »

 Wink
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« Reply #98 on: January 23, 2016, 05:25:12 PM »

for some reason that person's layout alone makes me feel like he'd constantly shout all his arguments at me instead of actually listening to what people have to say.

I haven't actually read what he typed out yet.
it's not hard to make a good layout guys. black and white works for a reason
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« Reply #99 on: January 23, 2016, 05:32:21 PM »

*she
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