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Koobazaur
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« on: September 01, 2015, 12:48:32 PM »

Hello chaps, developer of Karaski: What Goes Up Here! We are 2 months from release and struggling to build up hype and following even if we get visitors! Can you help us figure out why? Is the description boring? The trailer too slow? Or maybe the premise is just not captivating? AKA Tell me why my game sucks Smiley

EDIT: Also I wasn't sure if this should be here or Business, but figure in the end creative criticism would be more beneficial, but mods feel free to move

-----------------------------

Karaski: What Goes Up...
*You're one of five suspects of a sabotage onboard a 1920s Slavic Airship. Find the culprit or confess your crime in an open-ended, detective adventure game.*

Single-player story-driven detective investigation adventure with free form exploration and stealth

Coming to PC in October

[Website] | [

]| [Facebook] | [Twitter]



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Pfotegeist
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« Reply #1 on: September 01, 2015, 02:33:38 PM »

The Good
The graphics remind me of Thief, and with stealth in the game this is good.  Thief has a very immersive storyline, what kind of story will I look forward to in this?

The Bad
Based on what I saw the action looks dry, so it won't draw fans based on explosions. The game sounds like it could be very short and there's no estimated gameplay length in description. Using words like nonlinear used to be good PR, but it is annoying, I'd rather have a more specific explanation of what could happen in the game. The music is very kitchy and if I were interested in the game for music, I'd wonder how extensive the soundtrack is.

I don't think I'm being told a lot about this game.  If I'm going to regret buying it, I should know if the feature in it that piques my interest has a larger role in the game.
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battlerager
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« Reply #2 on: September 01, 2015, 02:52:17 PM »

Okay, first of all, game looks great. I'd love to check it out once it hits.

Now, I can sympathize with your problems. The game seems really well made, but something was still off to me. This resulted in my really, really wanting to find out what irks me about your game.

1. Obviously, it's really quite niche. That's not a bad thing, but both thematic and system genre aren't all that popular.
Let's look at the parts:
1920 (Period Piece)
Slavic (Ethnic)
Airship (Technology, maybe a Steampunk vibe for some)
Sabotage (Thriller)

I think I'd try to find what sticks out most out of these and try to drive it home a bit more in the trailer and PR materials.



2. The trailer is too slow-paced. I know this isn't an action game, but I think there's too many segments and they last too long. I don't really need to see you opening the door before you open the crate with guns. I don't need a segment on "4 distinct decks" that is just some panorama shots of areas you could feature in more interesting ways (in other segments in shorter cuts) or save for surprise.


3. While we're at it, things like that "4 distinct decks" bit are really outdated, in my opinion. It reminds me of feature lists on the back of game boxes telling me how many weapons or enemy types could be found in the game, like that number being big meant anything. Ditch it, imo - it makes me feel like I know too much about the game already and sounds like grasping for straws.


4. I might be biased here because sound and music is my bread and butter, but sound. You have pre-existing music (that is played to death because everyone uses Kevin McLeod's music) that fails to really summon up the scenario. Then, there's no game sound, and just very sparse sound effects throughout. The result is the trailer feeling very sterile. It doesn't feel like an airship or the 20s, it feels like footage of a game with some canned music to go with it. The solution is costly / difficult, but really this needs fresh music (could be old music too, but something that really sticks out, go hunt some slavic music from the time in the archives or something), game sound and some changing volume levels.


5. This goes with the "sound" thing from before. The trailer has no atmosphere. It also tells no real story. Which is strange because it being a detective game, you could very well do that! You tell us the scenario in on-screen text at the start, show a bit of destroyed machinery, then show whatever features you wanna share and come back to the scenario a bit at the very end. Instead, if you threw us right into the situation, maybe with a voice-over, certainly with some loud explosions / sounds of machinery malfunctioning and keep tension throughout (easier with a shorter trailer)l, you could easily sell people even on the niche setting.



6. In terms of who might be interested, I basically see two main directions:
A) People interested in the bizarre scenario (maybe with comedic, over the top or fascinating takes on the culture)
This can work, as Paper's Please shows (not saying that game is a laughing riot, but yeah). For these, you need a narrator voice-over, more unique music and maybe some more appealing visual effects and character animations (quite stiff right now). You are already knee-deep in "comrade" and the color red, why not go all-out?

B) People that love stealth, manipulating the environment and running away. People that play Thief, Amnesia or Penumbra should want to play your game. For these, you need good sound design. Airship machinery noises, footsteps that seem to come from anywhere, loud creaking doors and floor planks, the whirring sounds of your screwdriver as you frantically open the door. Also, you'd need some more varied environments in terms of visual effects (fog, darkness, maybe water) - anything that helps make things a bit less sterile.



7. Despite your courage to do a niche game, your PR-writing (slogan, the text you see between trailer segments, your description here in this thread) all sound very safe and careful big company. I like the game's name and subtitle, but come on. "One of our comrades is a Saboteur
can You find out who?"

I don't know, can I? Saboteur of what? I think you should be more aggressive here. This is bad because I just came up with it as I was typing (a real slogan / PR thing takes time), but I would have gone with something more like

"We are falling from the sky - but who clipped our wings?" or "Someone on board is a traitor - it might as well be you" or something. I hope you understand what I mean, I might have worded that badly.

Anyway, weak PR writing makes people fear bad in-game writing. That's how it is.




Sorry if this sounds super harsh, but I'm trying to really be of help. The game looks like it could be great!
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diegzumillo
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« Reply #3 on: September 01, 2015, 05:02:53 PM »

I would put this on my wishlist. It looks interesting.

The thing I didn't like was at the very ending it says something like "or confess your crimes, there is no right answer". I find it confusing. If there is no right answer and I can simply define I did it, what am I investigating exactly? Up until then I was understanding the game mechanics but then it lost me.
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diegzumillo
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« Reply #4 on: September 01, 2015, 05:14:47 PM »

I wasn't going to say anything else seeing battlerager extremely thorough post, but I may have something else to add. As a Thief fan my first thought was 'how good is the stealth system?'. The trailer did rang an internal alarm for a game that wants to be several things at the same time, and usually they fail to deliver in most departments. I don't know if going in depth in the trailer to show the mechanics would be wise though, I never made a trailer before, but it would be nice to see more details. Get a good look at all the mechanics the game offers. I like how on Steam you can line up several videos, and some games use that to put videos showing different aspects of the game.
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Koobazaur
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« Reply #5 on: September 02, 2015, 05:22:47 PM »

Thanks for the feedback guys, especially battlerager, thank you for being so in depth!

I think you are right, I am kind of "playing it safe" and follow a very traditional structure here, which probably works great with title with some brand recognition or marketing, but for a new and niche indie maybe I need to be bolder.

I am dreading re-working the trailer for like the 5th time again, but it is probably the most critical aspect of the pitch.

What about the front page text itself? The short description on the right, and a paragraph directly below screenshots? Any thoughts on that?

Thanks guys!
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G-Factor
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« Reply #6 on: September 03, 2015, 04:37:49 AM »

To add to Battlerager's comments, I also think the text makes the video feel like a feature list (4 decks, different playstyles...etc). Instead, I think you should try to show through gameplay what is fun. Show some gameplay where you sneak past a guard. Show some gameplay with funny dialogue. Show all 4 different decks so players know there's location diversity. Show some gameplay where your character is in front of a door and they cycle through various items till they find the correct object. SHOW the fun/diversity of your game rather than try to convince through text. You kind of already do that I suppose, but yeah I don't really think you need the text description before you show the gameplay. If the gameplay footage alone doesn't sell the point, then you need to recapture it.

Having said that, the video trailer for my own game is basically a feature list too so I'll need to redo it at some point.

Also, this is just personal opinion, I have zero promotional/trailer experience so take advice with grain of salt Smiley
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« Reply #7 on: September 03, 2015, 04:51:02 PM »

At first glance i thought it was a board game.

People would usually look at the screen first before they decide if they want to check out the game. And the screen here doesn't really tell me anything, and a  detective adventure game is too vague to get an idea what the game is all about. The trailer got me a little interested but your audience probably didn't get to that point because the screen and description didn't interest them.

Perhaps some gifs, or more screenshots of the gameplay will help convey the idea across better. Sometimes it also help by leveraging on existing games that are already popular, like "this game is like so and so, but something something something!"

All the best for your game Smiley
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Koobazaur
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« Reply #8 on: September 07, 2015, 02:37:35 PM »

G-Factor - I think you're getting at an important point. I was afraid to just let the visuals tell it and people missing the actual core features, but maybe it's actually better; leaves it a bit more vague and, thus, intriguing? I am planning to re-cut the trailer with less cards, more gameplay and, as you pointed, and maybe scrapping the 4-deck one.

Cys - yup I pitch it as Deus Ex-lite gamplay meets Walking Dead storytelling Smiley

I've also been struggling with a brief sentence I can put in an email subject or a forum title that instantly makes people interested. I've tried several iterations so far and it's not been working too well. So here's a few alternatives, would apprecite your thoughts on what grabs you most, what is just boring/stupid:

1) Freeform detective adventure where YOU decide if you're the saboteur onboard a damaged 1920s Slavic Airship!
2) Reverse “who’s done it” adventure where you decide who sabotaged the 1920s Slavic Airship
Break into cabins, interrogate suspects and write a unique detective mystery onboard a sabotaged 1920s Slavic Airship!
3) Play by the books or break all the rules as you write your own unique detective mystery onboard a sabotaged 1920s Slavic Airship!
4) Your decisions echo through the backstories of the passengers onboard sabotaged 1920s Airship, ultimately devising their grisly destinies.

Thanks Smiley

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Pfotegeist
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« Reply #9 on: September 07, 2015, 04:05:30 PM »


1) Freeform detective adventure where YOU decide if you're the saboteur onboard a damaged 1920s Slavic Airship!
This is confusing.

Question: Do you mean I can sabotage the airship?

Just in case, it might work more so like:
A detective game where YOU can sabotage, investigate, and frame people. Taking place on a damaged 1920s Slavic Airship!

2) Reverse “who’s done it” adventure where you decide who sabotaged the 1920s Slavic Airship
Break into cabins, interrogate suspects and write a unique detective mystery onboard a sabotaged 1920s Slavic Airship!
3) Play by the books or break all the rules as you write your own unique detective mystery onboard a sabotaged 1920s Slavic Airship!

Question: Is this a multiple ending type of game? I don't want to be disappointed and the pitch sounds hard to believe.

4) Your decisions echo through the backstories of the passengers onboard sabotaged 1920s Airship, ultimately devising their grisly destinies.
I think I get what you're implicating. It sounds like you frame passengers by breaking into their cabins and planting evidence, but the flowery language you're using isn't making me think I'm talking to someone from the 1920s vernacular translated into english.

Maybe this'll help.
http://local.aaca.org/bntc/slang/slang.htm

Baloney! You're a capering dick on an Airship in the 1920s, not a fly boy. Get a wiggle or you won't know from nothing and become the next fall guy.
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MichaelElmquist
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« Reply #10 on: September 08, 2015, 06:42:01 AM »

I've also been struggling with a brief sentence I can put in an email subject or a forum title that instantly makes people interested. I've tried several iterations so far and it's not been working too well. So here's a few alternatives, would apprecite your thoughts on what grabs you most, what is just boring/stupid:

1) Freeform detective adventure where YOU decide if you're the saboteur onboard a damaged 1920s Slavic Airship!
2) Reverse “who’s done it” adventure where you decide who sabotaged the 1920s Slavic Airship
Break into cabins, interrogate suspects and write a unique detective mystery onboard a sabotaged 1920s Slavic Airship!
3) Play by the books or break all the rules as you write your own unique detective mystery onboard a sabotaged 1920s Slavic Airship!
4) Your decisions echo through the backstories of the passengers onboard sabotaged 1920s Airship, ultimately devising their grisly destinies.

Thanks Smiley

These might be overly descriptive.

In the position of creator, it's tough to leave things out that you feel are very important since you spent so much time up close with it. But you have to remember the work will speak for itself, especially in the trailer, and the general mood of the website. You don't need to add everything to the elevator pitch. Allow the viewer to get more excited when they see the format of what was pitched.

So for example, you could say something like, "It's 'who dun it' air-born style" or "Crime is passion over open waters". Something succinct that leaves a lot to the imagination of the reader, and then further excites them when they learn more about it.
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Rotondo
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« Reply #11 on: September 08, 2015, 07:42:05 AM »

I love the look of the game, it looks like it could be a lot of fun.

After watching the trailer it just seems like things lack weight to them, the character animations, the tools, the interactions in general.

Specifically there's a part where you get caught and the character catching you doesn't seem to really react, in other stealth games like metal gear solid and the like, when you get caught you know it. There's a strong sound cue, the character who caught you usually has a dramatic animation, and it feels very alive and frantic. Here he just kind of walks in casually.

Also in the scene where I believe you're getting followed, the only thing denoting that he's alerted and chasing you is a lightning bolt above his head. He's just casually strolling towards you, not running, his hands are calm and by his side. In this situation I feel like most people would be quite frantic in their movement trying to chase after someone.

Like I said though, besides the weight stuff the game looks really interesting and fun. The style reminds me a bit of signal ops and I really enjoyed that game. Actually it might be good if you look that game up, the intro section has a lot of characters just in the background interacting with the world. It adds a lot of feel to the scenes.

Keep at it, the game is looking good and I'm sure it'll only get better.
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Koobazaur
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« Reply #12 on: September 11, 2015, 05:51:27 PM »

Sorry for the late response, but once again THANK YOU for the feedback! Pfotegeist very insightful that what i thought was intriguing is actually confusing or misleading. Noted! And MichaelElmquist, you and few other people pointed I am trying to squeeze too much info into one sentence. So maybe I do need to "dumb down" and take a step back, leave some mystery.

The thing is, I do need a good elevator pitch sentence even before the trailer. For example, as the email subject when contacting press or youtubers. Many of these guys get 100+ emails daily, so the right subject can be the difference between opening the email or deleting :/


Question: Is this a multiple ending type of game? I don't want to be disappointed and the pitch sounds hard to believe.

It does have multiple endings but follows a similar trajectory, with many variables changing in the end. A lot is left to your interpretation of the events and the game sort of adjusts and runs with it.

Thanks for the Slang link too, will undoubtedly prove useful Smiley

Quote
After watching the trailer it just seems like things lack weight to them,

Yea I can agree :/ I'll see how much we can fix that so close to release, but it's a limitation of indie dev and small budgets sadly. Will check out Signal Ops, heard of it when it came out but never played.

-------

Taking your feedback in and a step back, here's another round. Trying to be less feature-heavy and more just laying out the premise/hook. I think it comes off a bit plain, but let me know if I'm on the right track

1] Comrade, welcome aboard the world’s first Airship heading to its impending doom! Uncover the secrets of the passengers in an open-ended adventure.
2] Comrade! Uncover the secrets of your fellow passengers aboard world's first Airship before we all meet our inevitable doom.
3] Dark plot unfolds onboard a 1920s Slavic Airship and the passengers all have hidden agendas. Uncover their secrets and write the conclusion of their final hours.
4] Comrade! The Glorious Commonwealth’s first Airship has been compromised! Uncover what the passengers are hiding and write the grisly conclusion of its final hours in an open-ended, first-person adventure. Dziekujemy!


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Koobazaur
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« Reply #13 on: September 11, 2015, 05:54:16 PM »

Oh and in other, slightly more positive news, I just found out our game is one of the 15 finalists in the Polish Indie Game Festival & competition "Pixel Heaven" :D :D



The competition is a bit tough (Ethan Crater's totally owning this lol) so I'm not holding my hopes. But it has pushed me to do an impromptu trip to my homecountry for the fest Grin

Anyone here going by any odd chance? Come stop by and check out Karaski Smiley
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Koobazaur
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« Reply #14 on: September 16, 2015, 12:55:45 PM »

I'm reworking the trailer trying a different approach, would appreciate your thoughts on the rough first cut:





Here is an ALT with the wording in the intro "you are in the fulcrum" instead, not sure which one works better:



I have some reservations but will keep them to myself until I get feedback Smiley One obvious issue tho:
the "was it you" at the end feels too sudden, I want to add "find the saboteur" somewhere before but havent figured out where, dont wanna cram it all in end.
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redsuinit
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« Reply #15 on: September 16, 2015, 02:57:20 PM »

I'm reworking the trailer trying a different approach, would appreciate your thoughts on the rough first cut:





Here is an ALT with the wording in the intro "you are in the fulcrum" instead, not sure which one works better:



I have some reservations but will keep them to myself until I get feedback Smiley One obvious issue tho:
the "was it you" at the end feels too sudden, I want to add "find the saboteur" somewhere before but havent figured out where, dont wanna cram it all in end.

Much better.
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Pfotegeist
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« Reply #16 on: September 16, 2015, 03:33:34 PM »

I find this trailer more compelling than the previous one. The music was more interesting. Also at the end when it says "open ended" the scene felt like it was the most compelling.
It looks like the graphics are still improving, and I thought they looked good already.

There were a few very rough places. I think either beginning carries too many implications. I'm not sure what you're aiming at.

At the end. The "or was it you" was an odd phrasing. I think you're going for "everyone is a suspect," or "who could have done it? ...anyone" which is cliche but less biased and logical (maybe I did it? this is usually implied).

It was a little awkward where the tools are introduced. At 0:49 if you could angle the camera down more to fill the screen, or reveal a better view of the equipment I think I'd be more interested by the next few shots of them in use.

I like the clouds, it's kinda like stuff I keep trying atm.
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Koobazaur
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« Reply #17 on: September 17, 2015, 02:09:27 PM »

Thanks for the details Pfotegeist! Yes, the final phrasing needs to be reworked (as do the fonts/colors, it doesn't match).

Re intro - I had the VO from other trailer so decide to re-use it, but some people said it doesn't fit the slavic theme. Any thoughts? I kinda wanted to up my production values by not relying on title cards in intro + it shaves like ~5-10 seconds off.

Re grahipcs: its almost all the same footage, except convos which has improved UI and the running away from guard. I got running anims working (w00t) so adding more "weight" to the chase as someone mentioned before  Cheesy
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Pfotegeist
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« Reply #18 on: September 18, 2015, 06:26:15 AM »

I have heard a good voice actor can make just about anything sound good, I don't know enough about it though. Sound design (if that's a thing) is my weakest point.
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