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TIGSource ForumsPlayerGamesDropsy, Undertale, and empathy as a gameplay mechanic.
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J-Snake
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« Reply #20 on: October 16, 2015, 12:09:21 PM »

If you limit interactivity to such a narrow, “practical” purpose, what does that accomplish?
On the contrary, I don't see it as limiting but as enriching. It opens up potential for richer games. Take the game Doom for instance. It had its atmosphere but it was gameplay over story. It wasn't bound to story telling concerns so it could deliver the gameplay joy it was meant to be. This old game is still a richer game than all the shooters out there which try to follow story/emotion rides.

but to objectively state that storytelling in games can't be anything more than shallow is presumptuous.
You can perfectly have a valuable story in games, presented in cutscenes, in written form or other directed forms. I just doubt that telling stories through interactivity is potent, it may add to the experience here and there though.
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gimymblert
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« Reply #21 on: October 16, 2015, 01:28:20 PM »

What jsnake is saying is that perspective on game that don't fit his interest are invalid.

But there is no difference between story and game as far as I'm concern, and story can be abstract too, we just don't like those.

Btw game can be enjoyed as "stories" even if you keep the two separate, it's call "spectating". Both are unfolding events base on rules and stakes. When a story has plotholes or is inconsistent we frown, because like game they have rules, goals and failure, you can see resource unfolding as character use "mean" to address their problems. Both rely on a tight feedback loop of answer and response based on a tight "mental model".

The difference isn't between game and stories but between delivery media, cinema , books, etc ... don't allow for input. And even that is correctable, CYOA have been a thing for sometime.
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mks
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« Reply #22 on: October 16, 2015, 02:39:52 PM »

Quote
Execution
Is it a game? Make sure to play it twice. It only takes a few minutes.

http://www.venbrux.com/games/Execution.zip
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ProgramGamer
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« Reply #23 on: October 16, 2015, 03:37:40 PM »

This post contains mild Undertale spoilers. (mainly the first few hours)

Jsnake, I understand that you prefer games with an aesthetic of "gamey" violence to them and that you like that to be very tight in design, but there exist other valid ways to use the interactive nature of video games, notably to create very engaging stories. Undertale is the only game so far that has been able to make me feel guilt. The game sets you up with a tutorial character named Tauriel almost at the very start. She saves you from imminent death, and proceeds to take care of you as if she were your own mother. And she doesn't half ass it too, she gives you a cell phone, bakes you a pie and even gives you a place to live. Later on, you have to fight her in order to try to get back to the surface, even though she expresses regret over not being able to convince you to stay. I went on to defeat her, expecting her to not die because she seemed like a pretty important character to the story. But she did, in the most visually traumatic way possible. Her death left me speechless for a good 30 seconds before I could do anything, struck by the fact that I had just killed the character who represented my own mother in this story. This feeling lingered for a few days after having played it, but was revived when I learned online that killing her was not mandatory. This is one of the biggest impacts a game has had on me. It caused me to reconsider my relationship with my own real-life mother, doubt my own ability to make games and even question my morality. If you can find a book or a tv show or even a comic book that can have a similar impact on people, please show it to me. I dare you to show me something more impressive than the first hour of Undertale.
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Silbereisen
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« Reply #24 on: October 16, 2015, 04:06:31 PM »

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I dare you to show me something more impressive than the first hour of Undertale.

thats impossible because youre talking about how you personally relate to the game. there is lots of "art" that has affected me more than any videogame i have ever played but there's no guarantee it's going to have the same impact on you. media effects are a two way street.

i liked undertale a lot but it didn't really change my worldview.  Shrug

edit: i do generally find that interactivity draws me away from a story rather than pulling me into it. but ive discussed this already and most ppl on tig see it differently so w/e.
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ProgramGamer
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« Reply #25 on: October 16, 2015, 04:13:45 PM »

Yeah ok I guess that line is pretty irrelevant to the argument. My main point is how Jsnake seems to dismiss interactivity in stories as unimportant, and how I think he is sorely mistaken because, even if they are subjective (like all media BTW), games HAVE the narrative power to do things that other media cannot.

I could even cite EVE Online as a source of narrative. Whenever a great story echoes from that gameworld, everyone listens (reads) in awe at the events that happen in the game, even if they did not personally take part in it.
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