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Oats
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« on: November 01, 2015, 07:11:54 AM »

I'm wondering because I'm currently working on a spellcasting game, and I'm wondering how far a dedicated player would go. Perhaps the title is a bit misleading because I'm not talking about forcing a player to learn an actual foreign language, but rather a system of glyphs and symbols used to communicate details of a spell. Now obviously even for a skilled linguist (which I am not) creating a language is a near impossible task, and way beyond the scope of my game. So instead I mean a system where the player chooses from a list of learnt symbols to piece together artificially structured sentences perhaps in the form:

  • subject (what to cast on)
  • verb (what to cast)
  • adverb (optional, changes something about the spell)
  • cost (what you sacrifice to complete the spell)


Where each token of the spell is selected from a menu of the avatar's "learnt" words, and the program enforces correct syntax. The catch is that the word's the avatar has "learnt" and thus available in the GUI will not be written in english, or even in a gobbledegook of latin characters, but rather represented by a unique glyph. So in order for the player to correctly cast the spell they had planned they must correctly remember which of the unlocked symbols is appropriate for there need.

The learning curve of the language could be that during the game the player would discover books, which would artificially add new symbols to the avatar's vocabulary, then allow the player to view a page of potentially cryptic definitions of the unlocked words, and their proper usage.

This system would take a long time to implement, and even longer to have enough possible spells to be interesting, so I am very interested in what other game designers have to say before I invest the man hours to actually try and create it.
« Last Edit: November 01, 2015, 07:28:45 AM by P1x3lRuckus » Logged

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TammiDev
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« Reply #1 on: November 02, 2015, 01:48:04 AM »

Maybe try and look at gamification of learning languages first? Try to pull up some stats on levels reached/ playing time et cetera. Games like influent or websites (with mobile apps) like duolingo.
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doimus
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« Reply #2 on: November 02, 2015, 04:03:26 AM »

In my opinion and somehow in experience too, such mechanism is possible to do and can be fun but it must:

a) have a really strong reason why it's not in plain English and
b) be as simple as possible.

Loom is the perfect example of such game when both a and b requirements are met. Captain Blood is an example of what happens when they are not.
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nnyei
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« Reply #3 on: November 02, 2015, 04:59:52 AM »

I've never played a game like that, but thankfully doimus has that covered, so I'll prod at this issue from a different angle.

If you're going to make a game with a logographic script (i.e. symbol has a meaning, e.g. Chinese, Hieroglyphs) instead of a phonographic script (i.e. symbol has a sound, e.g. the alphabet, Korean, Japanese Hiragana/Katakana), you have to keep it very simple and make it so the syntax is sensical and easily repeatable. With a phonographic script, it's just a code you have to break (I know a couple of games that did it, like Commander Keen, Final Fantasy X, Ni no Kuni etc.), but with a logographic script, you have to approach it from a very different angle.

Let's make an example with a simplified mix of faux Japanese and Chinese, but keeping the syntax as close to English (and Chinese) as possible:

大 燃 龍 
big(adverb) burn(verb) dragon(noun, object)

or
大 火 龍
big(adjective) fire(noun, subject) dragon(noun, object)

I'm not sure where you'd put the "cost". Probably either at the start or end of the spell. Or maybe you can actually play around with the sentence structure. By which I mean, you could actually put it above or below the sentence, like this:

 牛
大火龍

cow (you sacrifice a cow. or whatever the cost is meant to be dunno man)
big fire dragon

Seeing as it's a different language and some scripts exist where sentences aren't written from left to right, I don't think this is a bad idea to break up the sentence like that.

So that would basically translate to "sacrifice one cow to summon a big fireball against a dragon". That's easy enough and I don't think anyone would have a problem with understanding the logic in that four word syntax. If we assume the "language" doesn't get more complicated than that, we face this problem:
How does the player know which one's an adjective/adverb, which one's a verb/subject, which one's an object, and which one's the "cost" when they come across a new glyph? If the language's actually forcing a correct syntax then I think it's just a matter of trial and error for the player so that might be a non-issue. Though, realizing that the adverb/adjective is optional might also be something that's difficult to grasp, assuming you don't want to implement a tutorial for the language's grammar.
If your game is similar to Magicka, the player can simply try out a combination and see the results. If your game is a Point and Click Adventure game, then you have to make the example sentences you find in the books very clear and understandable. Though, I don't know how much fun that would be for the player if they get spoonfed too many things.

Now, if you want to actually have a more complex language, then you have to think about what you want that language to be able to say before you construct it. Whether it has tenses, whether it has things like "if...then" statements, etc. Try to write everything in very simplified English before you give each word a logogram and a working grammar structure.
« Last Edit: November 02, 2015, 05:06:43 AM by nnyei » Logged
Oats
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« Reply #4 on: November 02, 2015, 06:22:55 AM »

Maybe try and look at gamification of learning languages first? Try to pull up some stats on levels reached/ playing time et cetera. Games like influent or websites (with mobile apps) like duolingo.
This would probably be a good place to look for hints on how to teach the player, but really I think it comes down to whether or not language games are intrinsically enjoyable or whether they merely make the difficult but rewarding task of learning a language bearable. To be honest I've always wanted to learn more french so I might try going through one to see if any design concepts are applicable. Thanks for the response  Smiley

Loom is the perfect example of such game when both a and b requirements are met. Captain Blood is an example of what happens when they are not.
I'll look into both of those thanks  Gentleman


Seeing as it's a different language and some scripts exist where sentences aren't written from left to right, I don't think this is a bad idea to break up the sentence like that.
This is a really great idea! It could even help parseability and make it easier to understand the syntax. I could break it up so different categories of symbol have a distinct position in the script, then when a player encounters a new glyph they just need to see it's position in an example to get an idea of how it's used.

If we assume the "language" doesn't get more complicated than that, we face this problem:
How does the player know which one's an adjective/adverb, which one's a verb/subject, which one's an object, and which one's the "cost" when they come across a new glyph? If the language's actually forcing a correct syntax then I think it's just a matter of trial and error for the player so that might be a non-issue. Though, realizing that the adverb/adjective is optional might also be something that's difficult to grasp, assuming you don't want to implement a tutorial for the language's grammar.
I think a get around for determining the correct usage of a glyph could be to theme it's visual, nouns would have a few shared visual elements, and so would adverbs and verbs and costs etc. I could then even incorporate extra themes to hint at larger purposes of the glyphs. For example I could have fire related glyphs generally include a vertical squiggle to represent it has a relation to fire, then the symbol for "dragon" could incorporate the fire and noun themes, while burn could use the fire and verb themes.
But of course allowing trial and error in a game is a great way to allow the players to explore, and as long as there is good feedback as to what exactly is happening I think just letting players go wild is constructive towards creating a compulsive experience. (I mean whats the point of making players learn a language if they can't even say anything new with it?)

Now, if you want to actually have a more complex language, then you have to think about what you want that language to be able to say before you construct it. Whether it has tenses, whether it has things like "if...then" statements, etc. Try to write everything in very simplified English before you give each word a logogram and a working grammar structure.
I think I'll go with the K.I.S.S methodology and just use a bear bones syntax system because it keeps it simpler for both the player and the computer to understand (and of course for the poor programmer to implement Well, hello there!).

Thanks for the feedback  Hand Thumbs Up Right
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« Reply #5 on: November 02, 2015, 07:19:12 AM »

I think a get around for determining the correct usage of a glyph could be to theme it's visual, nouns would have a few shared visual elements, and so would adverbs and verbs and costs etc. I could then even incorporate extra themes to hint at larger purposes of the glyphs. For example I could have fire related glyphs generally include a vertical squiggle to represent it has a relation to fire, then the symbol for "dragon" could incorporate the fire and noun themes, while burn could use the fire and verb themes.

That's a great idea! And now I wish I had actually brought that up myself because Chinese/Japanese actually uses a system like that. XD

If you want some inspiration:

氵 for "water", for example: 泳 to swim,  池 pond
火 and 灬 for "fire", for example:  燃 to burn, 熱 hot, 煙 smoke, 焼 to roast/heat up
艹 for "plant", for example: 花 flower, 茨 shrub
扌 for things you do with your hands, for example: 指 1. to point at 2. finger, 持 to hold
目 for "eye", for example: 瞳 pupil, 見 to see
亻 for "human", for example: 個 individual, 傷 wound

[there are no visual differences between nouns, verbs, adjectives etc. because the characters tend to be very versatile in that respect, but like you mentioned, it would probably be better for your game]

It gets more complicated the more abstract the concept gets, but at a basic level that's the gist of it. You might also want to look at Korean even though they use a phonographic script simply because they combine multiple simple characters with one another to form a word. But at a glance it's a lot more manageable to take in at once.

Anyway, best of luck with the project!
« Last Edit: November 02, 2015, 07:24:44 AM by nnyei » Logged
Terrytheplatypus
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« Reply #6 on: November 13, 2015, 02:09:35 AM »

only if it's really interesting
the only time i can remember doing that in a game is for The Gostak, one of the best IF games there is
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Endurion
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« Reply #7 on: November 16, 2015, 12:41:13 AM »

The Ultima games had a nice simple spell system with runes/syllables. Not much of a language, but each rune had a specific meaning which fit nicely to the results of a spell.
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Zorg
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« Reply #8 on: November 16, 2015, 01:02:13 AM »

Sounds like a more complicated Magicka.
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valrus
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« Reply #9 on: November 22, 2015, 12:00:57 AM »

I would, but I'm a linguist IRL.

If you haven't played it, go play Rudra no Hihou.  It's the first game that I can think of that takes the Oubliette/Wizardry/Final Fantasy trope where spells have predictably compositional names (e.g., "Firaga") and takes this to its logical conclusion, where the magic system can parse an arbitrary sequence of characters into either a successful spell or a failure. 

It's playable even if you don't work out much of the language, because you can overhear correct spells and just use them, but if you work out the morphology of the spells you have an easier time of it.  It's a nice effect, since it's not actually difficult, but gives the player the feeling that they're putting one over on the game.  (Like "Ooh this is really powerful and I'm not even supposed to know it yet, but I'm just that clever that I worked it out ahead of time; go me.")

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valrus
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« Reply #10 on: November 22, 2015, 12:23:39 AM »

A few other games that haven't been mentioned yet, but involve language decipherment in some way.  (Not just doing cryptograms on English text, but doing something more like what a linguist has to do when encountering an unfamiliar language.)

Missing Translation has you learning a language where you speak by (sorta) doing Android unlock patterns.

The IF game Edifice has a classic puzzle where you have to talk your way past an angry man with a spear, by learning his language.

Out There proceeds in part by learning words in the alien lingua franca, and after a while you can start to "get ahead" by deciphering text before you officially learn the words.

Nomad, a 1990s Star-Control-II-like, had a race that your translator couldn't handle, and that translator was very hard to obtain, so if you wanted to interact with them you kind of had to work out some of the basics by yourself by trial and error.

For that matter, Star Control II had the Orz and their poorly-translated language, where part of what you do is figure out what *dancing* and *many bubbles* and *campers* were.

Legend of Mana had a vignette where you had to learn a (quite simple) language in order to help sell lanterns to bears.

I think I remember Riven requiring you to work out a number system at least, a clever sort of rotational Chinese if I remember correctly.

There are various RPGs and similar fantasy games that had rune-based magic systems that were sort of linguistically compositional, but I can't remember any off the top of my head.

Anyway, those kind of give you a range of complexity, for how simple or complex languages in previous games have been.
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oahda
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« Reply #11 on: November 23, 2015, 06:42:36 AM »

I'd love to learn a language for a game, but not for the purpose you're suggesting here. :c
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« Reply #12 on: December 18, 2015, 06:53:28 AM »

I'd love to use a game to help me learn a language. But only a real language.

I'm a linguist and I've currently set myself the task of leaning Japanese and its 2000 or so commonly used Chinese characters, called Kanji. A game where you could learn kanji in the way described, piecing them together to cast spells, your knowledge of them allowing you to perform better in game, would be fun and useful at the same time. And I think there's a market for this. The only other language learning game I can think of is InFluent, which is ok, but basically involved walking around an apartment clicking on objects to learn their translation. Your idea would actually have a cool mechanic at the same time.

But learning an invented language, useless outside of the game? I don't think I could invest the time.
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TobiasW
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« Reply #13 on: December 18, 2015, 10:34:35 AM »

Suveh Nux is an (admittedly very short) text adventure where you do exactly that: You learn a language to cast spells.

It's really cool and highly recommended, but I'm not sure I'd like something like that outside of an adventure/puzzle game as it would probably get cumbersome after a while.
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« Reply #14 on: December 19, 2015, 12:01:45 AM »

I'd love to use a game to help me learn a language. But only a real language.

I'm a linguist and I've currently set myself the task of leaning Japanese and its 2000 or so commonly used Chinese characters, called Kanji. A game where you could learn kanji in the way described, piecing them together to cast spells, your knowledge of them allowing you to perform better in game, would be fun and useful at the same time. And I think there's a market for this. The only other language learning game I can think of is InFluent, which is ok, but basically involved walking around an apartment clicking on objects to learn their translation. Your idea would actually have a cool mechanic at the same time.

But learning an invented language, useless outside of the game? I don't think I could invest the time.

Yeah learning an actual real useful language from a game in a way that wasn't totally contrived would be p awesome, like casting spells in Japanese, or like a game where you're  a tourist or something involved in some scenario in a country who's language you don't know, and the only way to gather critical information is from overhearing and reading things and piecing the language together from context. But I guess the problem is that it would have a ridiculous scope, to write/record enough of any language to be able to learn from it, and figuring out ways of making sure a player has an understanding of what's trying to be taught in each area before proceeding would be a nightmare, but maybe possible?.

But anyway I think I'm just gonna stay in my scope  Blink M  Blink
« Last Edit: December 19, 2015, 04:33:17 AM by Oats » Logged

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« Reply #15 on: December 19, 2015, 02:50:45 AM »

It's pretty common for nerd games to expect you to learn *programming* languages. I bring it up, as considering the constraints of computer parsing, even the spoken languages in games usually have very constrained grammer, and usually function like programming languages. Suveh Nux is a great example.
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