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TIGSource ForumsCommunityDevLogsDISCO ELYSIUM (we finished it, it's out)
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Author Topic: DISCO ELYSIUM (we finished it, it's out)  (Read 149978 times)
Sustrato
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« Reply #120 on: January 16, 2017, 08:37:17 PM »

Those portraits look mad sick! I understand your concerns about the contrast between the hardness of the character models as well as the banter vs. brooding. Can't say I have any input, tho - it's something we'd have to see in action.

Do you have any pictures of the other concepts for the portraits? Particularly the corner scribbles? Those sound really cool.

Also, can you elaborate on how the team of eight was brought together? I read through the whole devlog so just tell me if I missed it and I'll go back and look, but I don't remember anything. You clearly have a lot of talent on your team and I'm curious what it took to find each other.

I'm pretty excited for this game. I haven't played an RPG like this (story/dialogue-focused) since, like KotOR. I have Icewind Dale on my steam wishlist tho, after your review. I'd buy it if I had time to play it.
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« Reply #121 on: January 17, 2017, 11:25:04 AM »

Loving those portraits. I hope you find a way to keep them similar to that without jarring against the dynamic tone of the actual dialogue.
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« Reply #122 on: January 18, 2017, 05:34:08 AM »

Quote
The plan is that as you put more points into a skill the portrait also evolves. Gets splashes of color, graphic elements and so forth. In the end you'll be running around with some really tricked out skills.


Yessss. I love menus that evolve in pretty ways as you progress. It was actually what got me through the loyalty missions in Dragon Age Inquisition after I realised how bland the game was, just wanted to see the good looking versions of the tarot card menus.
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« Reply #123 on: January 20, 2017, 04:48:34 AM »

Do you have any pictures of the other concepts for the portraits? Particularly the corner scribbles? Those sound really cool.

I just googled around for the other styles. Type in Käthe Kollwitz, stick one into the portrait slot and see how it feels like and think about what skill portraits in that image would look and feel like. Take a photo of some doodle filled page, stick it into the portrait slot and feel around. Didn't take any screenshots of it though, it was a fast process of trying out lots of stuff.

Also, can you elaborate on how the team of eight was brought together? I read through the whole devlog so just tell me if I missed it and I'll go back and look, but I don't remember anything. You clearly have a lot of talent on your team and I'm curious what it took to find each other.

We started out with four friends putting together a pre-prep doc about what kind of game we wanted to make and sprinkled it with loads of art. Two artists, two writers. As friends we go back years. We've done loads of stuff together from boring old drinking too much to organizing artistic movements. The rigors of work hours on a long project mean we've lost two of the original four who've gone to do other stuff. But beyond getting the ball rolling finding new talented people insane enough to do this with us is a process of asking around and meeting with people. It helps if you don't say "oh we're a bunch of fun guys just doing this fun video game thing" and instead go "We're insane megalomaniac assholes who want to bring literature to the 21st century". You tend to attract people with more interesting ideas.

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« Reply #124 on: January 20, 2017, 05:01:55 AM »

I'll just copy-paste the latest blog post here since I have little to add to it. It's a big important post though, it's about our role playing system we call the Metric.

INTRODUCING METRIC – (ARGUABLY) THE WORLD’S SIMPLEST ROLE PLAYING SYSTEM



“We are magnificent machineries of joy.
Machines of joy and then some.”


                               – Yan Scott Wilkinson

Lets talk systems. In No Truce With The Furies your character has four Attributes. These fall into groups of two – mental and bodily. Your mental Attributes are Intellect and Psyche, your bodily Attributes are Physique and Motorics. Depending on your choices in character creation you may begin the game with 1-6 points in any given Attribute.

Every Attribute has six Skills.

In the beginning the amount of points you have in a Skill is equal to it’s parent Attribute. During the game you gain more points (Experience) by completing tasks and discovering secrets. Experience can be used to unlock Skills – it takes three points to unlock one. Once unlocked you may put more points into your Skill. The maximum amount you can spend on a Skill is equal to it’s Attribute. (Natural aptitude equals the learning cap).

Any character may attempt any task.

The 24 Skills you have cover every action under the sun. There is no difference between dialogue and combat. Just roll two six sided dice and add however much you have in the Skill that represents what you’re up to. Want to hit something, add Hand / Eye Coordination. Want to fall in love, add Electrochemistry. The sum must be higher than the task’s difficulty. A normal task takes 10 or above to complete. Some rolls are handled behind the scenes, these are called Passive. Others are performed by the player, these are called Active.

That’s it. It took us fifteen years, five designers and a handful of dedicated players to come up with it. It’s the simplest role playing system our minds could muster – with the maximum amount of depth and tension hidden in the folds. We call it Metric.

To recap.

In character creation you decide your Attributes. These 4 scores represent both your natural aptitude and learning cap in the 24 Skills that cover everything a human being needs to function. The rest of the game is spent fleshing out – and struggling against – these limitations. There are unexpected ways to overcome yourself. And inversely, being talented at something comes with a price.

For the real lowdown — instead of telling you how the Attributes help — let me tell you how they make things worse.

  • INTELLECT
    A high Intellect makes you overly confident – a cocksure intellectual. You’re vulnerable to flattery, and easily lose yourself in details. (The game becomes longer). While having a low Intellect makes you dim and superficial, prone to superstition and being plain wrong.

  • PSYCHE
    A high Psyche comes with emotional turmoil – an unstable psychophant. Great willpower clashing with wild imagination. You may even lose your mind. While a low Psyche makes you uninspiring, inept at influencing people. Unsavoury things come out of your mouth.

  • PHYSIQUE
    Okay, you’re strong but so is your death drive – a mad man and a psycho killer. A high Physique needs to be tested, needs addiction, sex and physical confrontation. You lose your shit over small things. While being un-physical means vulnerable, un-streetwise. Lacking in animal cool.

  • MOTORICS
    A Motoric character is too high strung – a bit of a cokehead. A quicksilver superdetective focusing fast and then reacting (too) sharply. While being low on Motoric means you’re locked into yourself. The world has trouble finding you. You’re clumsy and slow.


We’ve found combing these weaknesses produces more unique characters than combining strengths. Sure, there are strengths too. The obvious ones and the less obvious. More on those once we get to listing the actual Skills.

Til then,
the battle-worn design team of No Truce With The Furies.
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« Reply #125 on: January 20, 2017, 11:07:55 AM »

I really like that double-edged sword approach. I can't think of any other RPG where high stats can also be a weakness
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« Reply #126 on: January 22, 2017, 02:16:06 PM »

Yeah, definitely intriguing if only for it's novelty. Also, great writing as usual. Is it bad that I saw myself in all your descriptions of high-skill characters. Yeah, just a bit cocksure.

Thanks for the explanation of how the team came together, too.
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« Reply #127 on: January 24, 2017, 01:05:44 AM »

It helps if you don't say "oh we're a bunch of fun guys just doing this fun video game thing" and instead go "We're insane megalomaniac assholes who want to bring literature to the 21st century". You tend to attract people with more interesting ideas.

I agree with this wholeheartedly, talent attracts talent. Brave ideas attract brave people.  Smiley


---

Speaking of your system, I really like it, it taps into the human condition without being obtuse or confusing. Though, I must say that being highly intelligent as often creates doubters. As Charles Bukowski once said: "The problem with the world is that the intelligent people are full of doubts, while the stupid ones are full of confidence.". There's also been some studies (example) that link intelligence with anxiety. But, games doesn't need to be simulations after all, if it makes sense for the themes you're going for then I've nothing to object to. But I personally feel that the dichotomy you've created feels false to me.
« Last Edit: January 24, 2017, 01:15:51 AM by Greipur » Logged

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« Reply #128 on: February 02, 2017, 11:30:10 AM »

Just discovered your project. This is something truely amazing dudes. Can't wait to play it!!

Also, minor humble feedback here about the fan in the roof: it looks pretty weird to have it floating up there ( since you are not showing the roofs) what I suggest is if you want to have a fan there, just use a projected shadow of it onto the floor, like a light is coming from above it.

Anyway, keep rocking dudes, I'm going to keep an eye on this for sure! <3<3<3
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« Reply #129 on: February 09, 2017, 04:35:25 AM »

Speaking of your system, I really like it, it taps into the human condition without being obtuse or confusing. Though, I must say that being highly intelligent as often creates doubters. As Charles Bukowski once said: "The problem with the world is that the intelligent people are full of doubts, while the stupid ones are full of confidence.". There's also been some studies (example) that link intelligence with anxiety. But, games doesn't need to be simulations after all, if it makes sense for the themes you're going for then I've nothing to object to. But I personally feel that the dichotomy you've created feels false to me.

I think what you decribe goes more for a "wise" person, which in Metric might be some combination of a well balanced Psyche with medium-high Intellect. A person who knows a lot of factoids but isn't socially too well developed turns out to be an insufferable know-it-all or a tweed blazer sporting studentfucker. The encyclopedic database in your head starts impeding normal social interactions for you have to start correcting every mistake people make. And you find you can weaponize it against young impressionable minds which is a temptation hard to resist if you're not a person of ethics and willpower.


Also, minor humble feedback here about the fan in the roof: it looks pretty weird to have it floating up there ( since you are not showing the roofs) what I suggest is if you want to have a fan there, just use a projected shadow of it onto the floor, like a light is coming from above it.

I hear you brother! We've had some pretty petty fights over it with Robert. It's an interactable object and ties in to the opening of the game, it pretty much just needs to be there but the way it sits there annoys me to no end. In the end we hooked a cable up to it to "ground" it to the ceiling but it's not a super elegant fix. Here's hoping inspiration strikes on the eleventh hour as we go back and polish the opening we'll figure out some super clever solution for it.
« Last Edit: February 09, 2017, 04:40:34 AM by kinnas » Logged

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« Reply #130 on: February 09, 2017, 05:12:54 AM »

Wanna know who this Robert person is who I keep mentioning? You can listen to his soothing Attenborough-like voice here:

http://www.mixedupzombies.com/interviews/2017/2/5/no-truce-with-the-furies-robert-kurvitz-interview

In the hour long podcast-interview with MixedUpzombies he talks about his approach to combat and violence in (role playing) games, the Thought Cabinet, about world building for No Truce With the Furies. He hands out asspats for the good old Planescape Torment, shit-talks Dishonored 2 and the noir police drama games. He also touches on companions and going solo in a cRPG.
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« Reply #131 on: February 09, 2017, 07:44:09 AM »

Speaking of your system, I really like it, it taps into the human condition without being obtuse or confusing. Though, I must say that being highly intelligent as often creates doubters. As Charles Bukowski once said: "The problem with the world is that the intelligent people are full of doubts, while the stupid ones are full of confidence.". There's also been some studies (example) that link intelligence with anxiety. But, games doesn't need to be simulations after all, if it makes sense for the themes you're going for then I've nothing to object to. But I personally feel that the dichotomy you've created feels false to me.

I think what you decribe goes more for a "wise" person, which in Metric might be some combination of a well balanced Psyche with medium-high Intellect. A person who knows a lot of factoids but isn't socially too well developed turns out to be an insufferable know-it-all or a tweed blazer sporting studentfucker. The encyclopedic database in your head starts impeding normal social interactions for you have to start correcting every mistake people make. And you find you can weaponize it against young impressionable minds which is a temptation hard to resist if you're not a person of ethics and willpower.


Yeah, I think I better understand what you're going for now, as you say in your press release you play a total failure and it would make sense that regardless if a stat is high or low it can be a boon and a curse. The dichotomy makes sense in your interpretation (as far as I understand it) - a person can never find balance but will remain broken regardless how the player rearrange the numbers. Feels like a refreshing take really, that you can never be the better angel of one's nature, but rather just trudge along as a lost cause. There's little to loose in a way, you won't get the good ending. It will be interesting to see how this disempowerment plays out in the finished game.


---

Going to listen to that podcast now.
« Last Edit: February 09, 2017, 09:22:39 AM by Greipur » Logged

kinnas
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« Reply #132 on: February 10, 2017, 02:40:54 AM »

A THING HAS HAPPENED, CORPORATE SUITS HAVE SIGNED DOCUMENTS

SELLING-OUT HO!



Quote
HUMBLE BUNDLE LAUNCHES MULTI-PLATFORM PUBLISHING & FUNDING INITIATIVE

New initiative brings developers together with Humble’s over 10 million customers; Humble will be evaluating games to publish during GDC and PAX East

San Francisco, CA February 9, 2017 – Humble Bundle announced the launch of a multi-platform publishing and funding initiative. The starting lineup includes seven games across a range of genres and styles, for PC, console, and mobile platforms.

A Hat in Time – The perfect ode to old-school 3D platformers, with a hat-swapping spin

HackyZack – A sticker-collecting, precision-platforming, puzzle-stunt game

Ikenfell – A heartwarming turn-based RPG about a school of magic and its troublesome students

Keyboard Sports – A cheeky adventure with Master QWERTY that uses the entire keyboard

No Truce with the Furies – An isometric role playing game that blends cop show antics with a genre busting “fantastic realism” setting, offering absurd new heights of non-combat gameplay for RPG fans

Scorn – Gripping first-person survival horror set in a nightmarish universe

Staxel – Grow your farm, meet the villagers, and join your friends online in building your world

Publishing Lead John Polson says, “Since Humble’s launch in 2010, we have earned the trust of over 10 million customers across our products. In a time when it’s harder than ever for games to find their audience, publishing feels like the next logical step in the services that we can offer to our developer partners.”

“All of our games will be ‘presented by Humble Bundle,’ carrying a seal of quality and curation that fans have come to expect. For each aspect of publishing, developers can choose the services they need, making Humble Bundle a truly modern and adaptable publisher.”

In line with this announcement we have changed genres from isometric rpg to faceshooter

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« Reply #133 on: February 10, 2017, 04:06:05 AM »

Congrats! Humble Bundle are pleasant to deal with in my experience so it will be interesting to see how they fare as a publisher.

---

It was a great podcast by the way, listened through the whole thing. As far as I understood Robert you want to create more games in this universe, and No Truce is just the stepping stone, right? I'm happy that more people do this with highly original worlds, since I would never have the patience to spend say, a decade on the same world. But the Oddworld franchise for example is dear to me in this way, that I can continue to explore it, with a new kind of mechanics each time. So yeah, I'm glad that others find it worthwhile so I can enjoy it.

Faceshooter sounds like the logical next step. Wink
« Last Edit: February 10, 2017, 04:13:18 AM by Greipur » Logged

kinnas
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« Reply #134 on: February 14, 2017, 01:22:44 AM »

Yeah the Humble guys are cool kids, it's a nice happy coincidence that we were both shopping for a partner at the same time  Hand Thumbs Up Right

The universe that Robert's cooking up in his head has been the setting for many pen and paper sessions, for a comic book the two of us started some years ago that never really went anywhere because of life reasons (but the base plot of which might get recycled into a full game of its own one day in the future). And the book we mention here and there "Püha ja õudne lõhn" (Sacred and Terrible Air I think is the standing translation of the title) which we're looking into getting translated to english. The hope is to create an entire creative universe in the setting. The patience to spend a lifetime in a setting is something else indeed, which also helps to explain why it's so vast and colourful, containing different eras and ideas which have gone through multiple cycles to cut the chaff and find original thought.

edit:

LOOK MOM WE'RE (FINALLY) ON ROCK PAPER SHOTGUN! (jesus we sent like 7 e-mails on different occasions)
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« Reply #135 on: February 14, 2017, 01:38:25 AM »

Here let me just copy-paste the latest blog post by Robert:

MEET THE SKILLS: INTELLECT

In Metric (our character system) there are six skills that comprise your Intellect: Logic, Rhetoric, Drama, Encyclopedia, Conceptualization and Visual Calculus. They are represented here by their work-in-progress portraits.





LOGIC

Logic is raw intellectual power. If you want to analyze the living daylights out of the case, take Logic. Formulate theories about what happened, or detect inconsistencies in the statements people make to you. It’s useful for not getting bamboozled.

Logic loves being right, however. To a fault. It’s a brilliant lie detector until faced with intellectual flattery. Then it starts tooting its own horn. Your Drama skill might interfere: people are pretending, manipulating you, while Logic – blinded by its own brilliance – yammers on about how infallible it is.

In heroic difficulty rolls, Logic can induce near-transcendence-like pleasure from performing raw operations on events and numbers. (It also does maths for you.) And it states the obvious. Logic loves an easy challenge, whatever it’s claims.





RHETORIC

Rhetoric is your ability to debate. Nitpick, make intellectual discourse. It doesn’t need to be an argument, you can just shoot off your mouth and take hearty pleasure from it. But let’s be honest – mostly Rhetoric just bickers. About politics.

All political discourse falls under Rhetoric. You can mold it into a weapon of fascist sable rattling, evicting potato-loving kojkos and deformed himean pygmees left to right. Rid Revachol of aliens in transit! Or become the ultimate liberast (perpetrator of the sin of liberasty), extolling free trade and slimy personal freedoms at the expense of the downtrodden. This is achieved through researching political projects in your Thought Cabinet, then having them supercharge your Rhetoric skill.

A souped up, ideologically informed Rhetoric is an impressive beast, but it gets you into trouble. The twist here is that Rhetoric – our persuasion ability – doesn’t really persuade anyone. Most of the time it just makes you new enemies. While your beliefs calcify.





ENCYCLOPEDIA

Encyclopedia is your knack for trivia. It’s perhaps the talkiest of all the skills, pulling out drawers of fascinating if questionable tidbits of knowledge. Sometimes real nuggets of gold too. It’s up to you to discern between the two.

Encyclopedia adores brands, marks, makes of pistolette and motor-carriage, street names, addresses, species of cockatoo, Great Century military leaders, rock music icons, Messinian ceramic manufacturers … Buy it and max it out, if you want a deluge of lore.

You may even find special, reoccurring places within your Encyclopedia. Like visions: a blackboard of names with all the cops in East Revachol on it, with all their confirmed kills and cases solved. Or a mysterious index of radio frequencies…





DRAMA

Drama is a god damn liar. Deliver believable deviations from reality, sometimes with the goal to deceive people, but not necessarily. You may just want to entertain as well.

We thought long and hard about how deceit is handled in RPGs and decided it needs to be more about performance in No Truce With The Furies. We want each of the skills to be a little world of it’s own, an investment worth considering. So lying became stagecraft, an amalgam of fourberie and deceit, with entertainment – and even singing. You can do karaoke with Drama, or perform spot on imitations of people.

Drama is also the counter to Drama. It informs you when Drama is being used on you. And although Intellect skills in general are more mentally oriented, Drama has its uses in combat as well. Feign death. Do drunken fighting. Maybe even quadrupedal movement…





CONCEPTUALIZATION

Conceptualization is your capacity for original thought. Make fresh associations, really delve into the concepts of the world – from Jan Kaarp’s postmodernist karperie, to Revachol’s arabesque architectural style dideridada, or even the concept of hardcore as deployed by the burgeoning dance music scene – then add your own contribution to these works! It’s your general purpose cultural theorist, used for both criticism and creation.

Okay, I’ll level with you. Conceptualization makes you into an Art Cop. You get extra lines of description in scenes, and you get to come up with stuff like poems, one-liners and a cool nom de guerre for yourself. An artist’s name, if you will. Conceptualization is the difference between hanging yourself and jumping into a live volcano. (No literal live volcanos are present in No Truce With The Furies for the time being.)





VISUAL CALCULUS

Visual Calculus is your forensics skill. It represents your grasp of the laws of physics, motion particularly. Create models of past events in your mind’s eye, trace dotted lines across the room, read tire tracks to recreate an automobile accident. Even notice tactical opportunities in combat situations – then take advantage of them. (Perception + Visual Calculus = the ultimate sniper)

We’re building a special, stylistic overlay that covers the world when certain Visual Calculus checks succeed. This lets us visualize shards of glass falling out of the window, a car backing into the fence, or political prisoners standing in front of a firing squad, half a century ago… all painted into the isometric world around you.

It looks great and I’m really sorry we haven’t shown it off yet. Just a few more tweaks first though…

I’m going to be candid and say Visual Calculus is a really cool skill and you should probably take it if you don’t want to miss out on all the cool. The only reason not to take it is that it’s a luxury. You need more essential stuff to stay alive and on top of things.



So to wrap it up – Intellect does not make you get on well with yourself, or with other people. It lets you peel off layer after layer from the world, getting to its inner workings, modelling its events and bending it’s structures. If that’s what you want, stick five or six points into it at character creation and later buy two or three skills to boot.

It’s been my ambition as a pen and paper DM to make heavy mental labour as engaging and wildly entertaining as combat, or even more so. Of the four main Attributes, Intellect was perhaps the hardest to nail. What it really comes down to is how the actual situations are written in the game — and most of all, how interestingly you play them out. The skills are just prompters in the play you’re starring in, whispering suggestions to you from within. It’s up to you to decide whose ideas you want more of, and what to do with them. But naming and dividing between areas of juristiction is everything in systems — and I’m certain this cast was worth getting together all these years.

(Next time we’ll introduce the Psyche skills to you. Inland Empire is my favourite.)
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« Reply #136 on: February 14, 2017, 01:41:59 AM »

The universe that Robert's cooking up in his head has been the setting for many pen and paper sessions, for a comic book the two of us started some years ago that never really went anywhere because of life reasons (but the base plot of which might get recycled into a full game of its own one day in the future). And the book we mention here and there "Püha ja õudne lõhn" (Sacred and Terrible Air I think is the standing translation of the title) which we're looking into getting translated to english. The hope is to create an entire creative universe in the setting. The patience to spend a lifetime in a setting is something else indeed, which also helps to explain why it's so vast and colourful, containing different eras and ideas which have gone through multiple cycles to cut the chaff and find original thought.


Sounds like a worthy cause. Yes, if the setting is flexible enough you can probably always expand on it, without getting tired yourself, or tiring others. Take Star Wars for example, even though some game devs tried to bring a little ancient mythos (Old Republic) it still centers around a few select things. Rebels and empires, good and bad, not getting consumed by teenage angst etc. Thematically it's very limited in my opinion, and I'm unsure of how they could expand on it after the ninth film, or make a gazillion prequel films.

I think creating transmedia universes is very much in vogue, but perhaps not those that are more than junk food. Junk food is nice (such as Star Wars, long time fan I must admit), in moderation, but I want other meals as well. Wink
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« Reply #137 on: February 14, 2017, 09:01:29 PM »

Gosh those portraits are wonderful! They look so well thought out, like how the logic head is like a bunch of puzzle pieces(puzzles inherently requiring logic to solve) or drama being a melty head thing. When I play I'll make sure I get some visual calculus, I don't want to miss out on the cool stuff! Wink

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« Reply #138 on: February 15, 2017, 12:33:50 AM »

There seems to be some Francis Bacon in those portraits. I like those. <3
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« Reply #139 on: February 16, 2017, 12:07:44 AM »

I think creating transmedia universes is very much in vogue, but perhaps not those that are more than junk food. Junk food is nice (such as Star Wars, long time fan I must admit), in moderation, but I want other meals as well. Wink

I used to enjoy the occasional burger but I find myself completely uninterested these days. It was incredibly easy to not go see the latest star wars schlock. To be honest some introspection reveals downright disgust at this permanent childhood infantility which permeates pop culture today. The nerds won the limelight but they only brought with them their manchild values but not, for instance, love for history.

"30 is the new 20" because the nerds won.

Gosh those portraits are wonderful! They look so well thought out, like how the logic head is like a bunch of puzzle pieces(puzzles inherently requiring logic to solve) or drama being a melty head thing. When I play I'll make sure I get some visual calculus, I don't want to miss out on the cool stuff! Wink

I love the entire semantic nature of this task. Going around in circles weighing up different symbols and ideas. Land on the first obvious choice (syringe is health), discard it and keep going (muscle and bone structures make up the body), and find the kernel within - muscle fibers.

Not to mention a lot of my work is tied down to this desk and this bigass cintiq. But for figuring out the skill portraits I can take a sketchbook out to a cafe and jolt up the ol' neural network with some fresh scenery (and coffee).

There seems to be some Francis Bacon in those portraits. I like those. <3

Someone somewhere mentioned Schiele too. Both of which I vehemently deny Grin It's trickle-down inspiration though, I don't care much for Bacon but people whose work I like have been inspired by the guy.

Wanna see a cool artist? Check out Anton Vill https://www.instagram.com/ant4d/ a lifelong inspiration and a friend.
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