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[diegzumillo]

Today I decided to give in to my nostalgia and play some Streets of Rage. This game aged surprisingly well, I actually had fun and finished it. So I'm feeling like rambling about it for a moment. If anyone cares to join me

Today, as a hobbyist game developer, I couldn't stop thinking about its mechanics while I played. There are plenty of modern beat'em ups. But the formula is pretty much untouched. You have your normal attack sequence and you have the 'grab thing'. I remember that when I was younger I loved the grab thing! I used to lose lives after lives because I pretty much tried to beat the game by grabbing everyone, and the enemies tend to punch you in the face if you simply walk up to them. Somehow punching and jump kicking seemed less elegant to my young mind.

Today I see the appeal of grabbing. It's the variety of things to do while grabbing that I enjoyed. I liked to maximize my grabbing by beating him twice  (not three times because that's a lame finisher), then throw him over the shoulder. OR, to make it even cooler, jump over him and do the cooler finished, that I still have no idea if it has any damage difference.

So now I want to make a beat'em up exploring all the possibilities of grabbing. Maybe use some physics simulation and allow the player to swing the enemy against the ground or use it as a shield against other enemies.

The environment was also a highlight for me. Very few possibilities in SoR 1 though, mainly pits to throw the enemies into. So in my hypothetical game I would make environments that give plenty of possibilities of dispatching your foes. Which you would do while grabbing, of course.

I hope this isn't considered shitposting.

[battlerager]

My main gripe with beat'em ups and the #1 thing that needs solving is:
They all boil down to fiddling with your character's vertical position to line up with the enemy's.

Of course, there's other aspects like spacing and timing and target priority, but yeah.
A grapple system with different options (and challenges?) could help solve this I think.
Like, press grapple button, character grabs nearby enemy (no matter what direction, as long as enemy is within circle with radius X)

I also agree that environments can and need to be way more interactive and important.

Have you played any modern MMA video games? They aren't beat'em ups, but they have a big focus on grappling and submissions and all that. Maybe some ideas there?

[diegzumillo]

Never played any MMA games. I'm usually turned off by realistic sports games, and MMA kinda fits that category. But I believe if you say they have good grabbing mechanics, that's the bread and butter of MMA!

By the way, I'm not actually going to make a beat'em up. This is all hypothetical!

[battlerager]

No pressure!

What would you say about the whole "vertical alignment" thing?
Fair assessment or completely off? 

[ｂ∀ ｋｋｕｓａ]

the "vertical alignment" thing never bothered me, in some way it's a part of the strategy and gameplay in a beat-em up, especially against bosses. Not seeing it as a bad thing but i understand that a part of players dislike it.

There's a way to tackle this by using planes and no vertical axis as did Guardian Heroes or Phantom Breakers

Guardian Heroes:
 Initially, the player can only access three planes of battle: a foreplane, a middle plane, and a back plane. These planes can be switched between in set sequence, or at the player's choosing based on which button is pressed. Often, evasive actions can be taken by switching a plane.

[Sik]

I'd suggest to look into Bare Knuckle 3 (not Streets of Rage 3, Sega bastardized the localization =/). It has running, the timer doesn't exist anymore (it's not a freaking arcade game, people!), and to do specials you can either wait for the bar to refill or spend some health (in the previous game your only option was to spend health).

The bar thing is especially useful for bosses and the like, if you find it too hard to attack the normal way then keep dodging as your bar refills and keep throwing specials. It still requires skill since you need to be good enough at dodging attacks (as you can't freely spam specials), but for some people that's easier than trying to land attacks. A different set of skills, basically.

then throw him over the shoulder. OR, to make it even cooler, jump over him and do the cooler finished, that I still have no idea if it has any damage difference.

The latter is easier to pull off, the former has more likelihood to hit other enemies behind you (due to the much more extended range).

[Tuba]

Love some beat'em ups but was never a fan of grabbing. Maybe I should try replaying the SoR games.
IMO things like God of War, Devil May Cry and Bayonetta are the modern version of beat'em ups, none of them has anything like grabbing, maybe because grabbing usually stops the action for a moment and those games are all about keeping the rhythm by chaining attacks and making big combos.

I'd suggest to look into Bare Knuckle 3 (not Streets of Rage 3, Sega bastardized the localization =/). It has running, the timer doesn't exist anymore (it's not a freaking arcade game, people!), and to do specials you can either wait for the bar to refill or spend some health (in the previous game your only option was to spend health).

The bar thing is especially useful for bosses and the like, if you find it too hard to attack the normal way then keep dodging as your bar refills and keep throwing specials. It still requires skill since you need to be good enough at dodging attacks (as you can't freely spam specials), but for some people that's easier than trying to land attacks. A different set of skills, basically.

SoR/BK3 also used the 6 button Genesis controller for some "extra attacks". You could use X + quarter circle forward or some other fighting game like input for some special moves, Y to kick and Z to perform a backhand attack.

Was the game really that butchered in the american localization? I know that some characters were removed but that's it as far as I know.

[diegzumillo]

No pressure!

What would you say about the whole "vertical alignment" thing?
Fair assessment or completely off? 

I think you nailed it! But I don't think it's a bad thing in itself, just too limited. I like how approaching the enemy needs to be done with caution. To give this more depth there could different approach strategies for different enemies.

Of course I played SoR3! It's a much better game, no doubt about that, except maybe the music.

[Sik]

Was the game really that butchered in the american localization? I know that some characters were removed but that's it as far as I know.

They shifted all difficulties by one, then removed Easy. This means that SOR3's Normal is BK3's Hard... but oh wait they also made it stop at round 5, so you have to play the even harder difficulties just to get to the end! Enjoy the major balance wreck.

I guess they probably did it to prevent people from renting it and finishing before the rent time was over.

(EDIT: they also messed around with other stuff like the character colors, but that's minor in comparison to this)

[diegzumillo]

I didn't know about that difference. I just finished SoR 2 and will now play BK3 right away!  I thought it was only language. Which made no difference to me back then, as I spoke neither english or japanese. Ah, the many times I chose "yes" on SoR 1... I could never remember which option was the right one.

[Sik]

SOR1 has both languages in it (unlike the latter games), so if you got Japanese then it means your console was Japanese (or had region switches and they were set to Japanese), although even then only story was translated, UI was always English. And yeah. SOR1 and 2 are alright in the localization (SOR1 actually isn't any different aside from language, period), but SOR3 is utterly screwed up.

[pmprog]

What would you say about the whole "vertical alignment" thing?

Vertical alignment is annoying. However, what always bugged me greater in SoR and similar games is the positioning of the enemies - they'd nearly always retreat to the side of the screen and keep walking off-screen so you can't actually attack them. Considering you're against the clock as well, it's a pretty frustrating affair.

My current game project has two game "parts", one being a "beat 'em up". I've already countered the off-screen hiding, but I'll also be looking into the vertical alignment issue

[dao cowboy]

River City Ransom is one of my all-time favorite games.  It had some flaws, most notably that players could get the most powerful techniques really early.  But I really liked how they did blocking.  Basically, if you attack at the same time as an enemy, you execute a block.  Blocking was dependent on a statistic you could improve, and I think that allowed the player to be a little loose with timing.

I think the vertical alignment thing might be easily solved by just making that as loose as makes sense--if you're a little bit above or below, you still hit them (and get hit).