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[JasonPickering]

Yeah I have been thinking about bigger risk reward stuff. I was thinking about maybe adding alters you can pray at then to do something. Couple ideas:

Pros:
Increases number of spells
Scorch spell becomes stronger
Add new spell to the game
Give you a powerful treasure

Cons:
Lose max hp
Lose on hp each level
Add new scary monster
Increase the frequency of certain monsters (two scoops of ooze)
Push back max level.

[Vallar]

Tried the new version out and I came across this bug/error:

___________________________________________
############################################################################################
FATAL ERROR in
action number 1
of Alarm Event for alarm 0
for object Obj_GameMaster:

instance_create argument 3 incorrect type (5) expecting a Number (YYGI32)
at gml_Object_Obj_GameMaster_Alarm_0
############################################################################################

I am unsure which level I was going to, perhaps level 4 or something. I like the salamander now better. Also the arrows are much more indicative of what they do, although I think the sprite takes away from the game's overall feel. Somehow it felt it didn't 100% fit the game. But that just might be me.

I do agree with Sungk and that bigger rewards/loses might be quite a thing in this game. Although I wouldn't only restrict it to mechanics but gameplay as well. Maybe that will increase the scope of the game but it was just an idea. The game does have a lot of potential for a lot of things. That said, I do like the alters idea, but I would suggest conveying these trade offs to the player clearly as some of these negative effects are quite drastic.

One thing you might consider is the safe player. For example some of these choices if presented to me, I'll just skip them together. For example the lose max HP, lose 1 HP each level and push back max level (does that mean add more levels to the game?) I may not even touch them no matter what reward I have (unless earlier I had some kind of +max HP to cover for the loss for example).
Others I may take dependent on the gain you are proposing. So in this case, would you be OK with that? Or is the main goal of the game is to trade off in general? Just a thought.

[JasonPickering]

So would the treasures work better as one time upgrades that dont take up inventory slots? I am thinking the player could be given a choice between 2 items and they have to decide which one.

[Vallar]

I like the idea of choosing between upgrades and them not taking inventory space. Specially when inventory space is limited and is taken by items found in chests.

That said, there is something I noticed. If you drop an item, you can never get it back. Honestly, I dropped my item by mistake as I didn't catch the text that told me what it does. I wanted to get it back but it was gone into the void. What if there is a way to get it back? But not spells, just the items since they are quite rare to find.

[JasonPickering]

So I had an idea for like the after game.

I really liked the idea of adding new things and unlocks to the game like Enter the Gungeon and Binding of Issac have. So I came up with an idea of a new treasure (We will call them Gems for now). This new treasure would be basically useless, unless you beat the game with it in your inventory. at this point I have a few options.

1. The player can spend these "Gems" to unlock new things. Maybe add a new enemy, a new spell, or a new treasure. This lets the player make the game as hard as they want.

2. Same as above except I could also do it so they could change what is on. Maybe they don't want to play against slime's this run.

3. As the player collects them the game will get harder. Maybe once they beat the game 5 times with Gems, a new enemy is added to the game.

I think 1 feels the most fun now, and I am kind of thinking they might be more cryptic until you buy the upgrade.

[Vallar]

Sounds like an interesting mechanic. I didn't play either of these games to be hones to be able to comment on what they have done.

Out of the list you presented, I think number 1 like you mentioned has the most potential. I feel it functions more like New Game+ in games like Dark Souls; you get to keep your stats (if I recall correctly) and play against tougher foes. Could be an interesting idea. Although I'd recommend that they don't take inventory space. This would scale the difficulty quite a bit, specially if 1 Gem does 1 thing only (like introduce new enemy). If I carry 2-3 Gems then I haven't got much space left.

[JasonPickering]

No sorry. I meant one gem once taken to the end would unlock something, but then vanish. So if you do take it to the end you might buy the more floors making the last level floor 12 instead of 9. And it will always be that way.

[JasonPickering]

I will say after reading the unlocks for the Binding of Issac has me thinking about that way as oppoosed to the gem idea. I might have to use a mixture. For example in that killing an enemy 20 times might unlock a new stronger enemy that has the chance to show up in the game. By the time the player has killed 20 of that enemy they should be ready to deal with a tougher one.

[Vallar]

Like I said I didn't know either of the game's methods. But I believe the latter is more fun. As the surprise is contained withing the game rather than a conscious choice.

That said, I feel it might end up like an achievement so none but the seeker of achievements will care. For example I am one of those people that don't sought after achievements (unless there is a reward other than a pointless silly badge is involved). So probably I won't go after getting the new enemy.

However, if it scales up, then I will probably do that just to get a "different game". This might be quite the work/expansion but might be worth it. An example of what I am talking about is as follows:
Let's say if you kill 10 of X you get a monster that replaces X. If you kill 20 of the new monster, it gets replaced with a third new monster and so on...

[Christian]

I like that New Game + idea. I think pools of items/enemies/etc. do wonders to give roguelike longevity. To bring it back to Microgue, there were a few reviews that mentioned that there wasn't much drive once you encountered all the enemies and reached the end a few times. A system like this could provide motivation to keep playing, to try new tactics, etc. That dripfeed of new unlocks definitely part of what made Hand of Fate and Gungeon so enjoyable

[JasonPickering]

Yeah, I had an idea like this for Microgue, but that game had a very limited design space. This feels a bit more open option wise. I am working on a save system now to save certain statistics to change the game.

[StorKuk18Cm]

What would you add for the final version?

[BomberTREE]

I will give the new build a go in the morning, keep it up Jason!
[edit: I FORGOT TO, AHH]

[JasonPickering]

So rebuilding the monster selection process now. I have a plan to add some stuff as you play. so lets say you kill 100 rats well now the game may add a newer tougher enemy. Maybe when the player dies 50 times a new spell is added. I am looking at the unlocks in binding of Issac and I really like that idea of new things making the game feel different.

[JasonPickering]

Trying to figure out how to handle the unlocks. I like the paper pop up thing in Binding of Issac. Since the game is focused on the book I though that might work as a better medium to tel the player. Not sure how I feel about it and what exactly I should do. I threw some temp writing on it just to feel out alignment.



I think making the book larger and I could do writing on one side and a picture on the other. Not sure how cryptic I should be. right not the upgrades are new spells added, new enemies added, and max floor raised. so when the treant unlocks what works better

The Wood's dark magic stirs.

or

The Treant has awoken

[Vallar]

I like the way it looks, although if this upgrade occurs mid game (i.e. the player hasn't reached the book yet), then it breaks immersion; how does this hint come up in the book that I am looking for and don't have? However if it is at the end of a play through, then that feels quite fitting; the book reveals stuff to the player as part of the reward.

I really like the look of it (perhaps a more ornamented look for the book would be nice). I also prefer the cryptic "The wood's dark magic stirs" rather than having a picture of the creature or even its name. The mystery intrigues me to try and find out what this creature might be.

One thing though, if the creatures appears near the end of the play through for example, perhaps expand the hint a bit to include something that hints it is an end game creature. That would eliminate the feeling of "nothing new and I went to that level or this level" but the player didn't go through to the end of the game to see it for example.

[JasonPickering]

Well I am a bit on the fence about when to unlock. I can have it appear mid game or only when you complete the game. I might replace the book with a torn page. similar to what you are finding on the ground already. This allows the player to unlock new content without beating the game only. Since some of the content is stuff that will make the game easier, like new spells and treasures. right now my unlock list looks like this not specifically in this order. I am still trying to think of new spells and new treasures. Always open to suggestions. Also should I show an unlock count? let the player know when they have unlocked everything.

book appears on a later floor
book appears on an even later floor
Spell Quake is added to the game
Spell Haste is added to the game
The Ankh treasure is added to the game
The snail enemy is added to the game
the Treant is added to the game
the Spider is added to the game
The Giant is added to the game.
Increase the monsters on each level

[Vallar]

I love the idea of a torn page and unlocked happening mid game. Would be much fun! With the roguelike elements in the game, every play through I could get different combinations of unlocks! The torn page is good too, feels like you are collecting the book and the book is actually part of the world you are in.

As for spells and unlocks, here is my initial feedback:

"Spell Haste is added to the game" -- Not sure what would haste do in a turn based game.

I like the other unlocks and they sound like fun, even when I am unsure what is the Ankh (extra life?).

Here are a few more ideas:

1- Spell to destroy objects (such as trees, boulders, etc...).
2- Treasure or spell that allows you to pass through solid objects (trees, boulders, etc...).
3- Bosses?
4- Freeze enemies spell
5- Expand inventory by 1 (can be done once perhaps? Also could have a cost of sacrificing 1 item or spell).
6- Silence spell so enemies like Salamander can't cast spells.

I also like the idea of unlock count but not rather like a count. I think the way Vagante does it is kind of good, although I wish they would have the icon of the unlockable feature dimmed rather than a simple lock icon. That way I can at least guess what this is and might have some clue on how to unlock it.
I am one of those people that dislike no hints or any direction as to what kind of unlock I could get (or if even there are any) in the game.

[JasonPickering]

Well I was thinking of these more as permanent unlocks that are added as possibilities. For example once a player has killed enough enemies, now the Spider has been added to the game. Now as you play through there is a chance for levels to have spider enemies. or perhaps now there is a chance for the player to find Haste spells (Which lets the player take two moves in a row for that floor) It works as a sort of difficulty curve. As the player plays new elements are added.

I do have an idea for a "Boss" character. It's a lich that would have a chance of summoning other enemies onto the map. It wouldn't be so much a boss as a late game enemy, that you would only ever battle one of. Its the last enemy on the list to be added bringing the total enemy count up to 9.

as for the spells. Scorch and Frost can already destroy trees. I am trying to think of how to do a freeze spell, like a two turn freeze spell ore something.

[Vallar]

Gotcha, I still would say that some hint (with the icon) to what I can unlock is better since I don't generally like a list of unlocks with no way to know how. But in your case it might work as I am bound to unlock some of these with my playthroughs anyway.

Perhaps with the "boss" you can have a few levels similar to that lich level but with other enemies?

Freezing spell is just as you mentioned stop the enemy for a few turns. Could be good for a get way or as CC.