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[nnyei]

I'm not touching that "tracing vs. no tracing" debate with a ten feet pole, but for someone just starting out with art, Ctrl+Paint is a good place to start. It won't teach you pixel art per se, but it'll teach you art fundamentals that'll help you with any kind of art.

[0stasis]

If you have no experience in drawing in general, the reality is, that this is gona take time and patience. I mean this is art, if it were easy, no one would value it.

In terms of quick exercises, tracing won't help you at all.
I will argue copying a piece of artwork or painting will, as long you don't claim it for yourself. Nothing is going to beat reference but style is something you can learn from others. That's where copying helps. I use to do this alot. I would take a jpg of a video character and try to basically copy it. It's not something I would recommend on it's own since nothing is better than drawing from life. There are no shortcuts in Art. Even some of the skillful artists you see on deviantart or people who have made games and never went to art school, they've all practice in their own way. There isn't really a faster way. If you only know how to draw in one angle, then you're doing it wrong. You knowledge in art, anatomy, color theory, all come into play when you want to design a character, or creating an environment. So if you're really set to make video game art, get a hold of pdfs of learning how to draw. People with art backgrounds can go into any medium because it doesn't matter. They have the knowledge.
That's my 2 cents.

[JWK5]

Rather than continue to argue, I made a tutorial.

[ｂ∀ ｋｋｕｓａ]

stigma [...] despite the fact it is used (..) in inking and animation.

If you're tracing for inking and animation , it means you have a certain knowledge of drawing.

And by looking at the mummy drawing, if you have the capacity of putting volume and shadows, then it usually means that you're able to draw without tracing.

The thing i do not understand is why bother tracing because at this point, you're pretty much able to reproduce a drawing without tracing. Tracing for inking and animation is an exception because you need to reproduce the exact same outlines (obviously).

Good tutorial but i doubt it's useful for  a beginner with no experience in drawing. The problem with this tutorial is that it's like you're considering volume and color (distance, depth) a common knowledge which isn't.


I'd encourage beginners to do studies without outlines.

(pixel filtering to make pixel art is not recommended)

[ｂ∀ ｋｋｕｓａ]

there's another easy way, just do rotoscopy and don't bother learning art.

[JWK5]

stigma [...] despite the fact it is used (..) in inking and animation.

If you're tracing for inking and animation , it means you have a certain knowledge of drawing.

And by looking at the mummy drawing, if you have the capacity of putting volume and shadows, then it usually means that you're able to draw without tracing.

The thing i do not understand is why bother tracing because at this point, you're pretty much able to reproduce a drawing without tracing. Tracing for inking and animation is an exception because you need to reproduce the exact same outlines (obviously).

Good tutorial but i doubt it's useful for  a beginner with no experience in drawing. The problem with this tutorial is that it's like you're considering volume and color (distance, depth) a common knowledge which isn't.


I'd encourage beginners to do studies without outlines.

(pixel filtering to make pixel art is not recommended)

The first half of the tutorial is about the actual tracing process, the second half is more about what it can act as a precursor to (i.e. some useful directions to move thereafter in learning).

In terms of outlines, learning to see the outline is important regardless of whether in the drawing appears to have outlines or not (especially in regards to things like gesture sketching). Learning to see depth just by that outline really helps make quick connections and observations which again is something very useful when it comes to sketching and all the precursor steps to a finished drawing (which is why it is such a useful tool for beginners).

You keep saying what is and is not useful to beginners, but I am curious, how many beginners have you actually taught to come to this conclusion?

You may or may not have noticed, but I put out a lot of tutorials and take time to create diagrams and whatnot to help people learn more easily. I've also taught lots of beginners in one-on-one tutor style teaching (both in person and across boards like iScribble where two people can draw at the same time together online). I have a lot of time invested in working with beginners and helping beginners learn, and many of them are no longer beginners. That is why and where I've reached my conclusion.

For that matter, how many beginners have you taught through tracing (only to apparently have it fail) to reach that conclusion?

there's another easy way, just do rotoscopy and don't bother learning art.

Rotoscopy is time consuming and still requires some decent art ability to come out looking good. I think you're being a bit too dismissive in all your generalizations.

[ｂ∀ ｋｋｕｓａ]

I have seen enough people who abandoned pursing art because they've learnt bad habits difficult to unlearn. And most those cases were in  arts déco in Strasbourg (art school).
I don't really care that the fact you're making tutorials and graphs and stuff (they are good but not this one imo) is something that put more value to your sayings, do you need me to scan diplomas and stuff?

Why can't you show me a case of an artist who learnt by tracing or consider that tracing is a good way for a beginner to learn drawing?


Since you're saying that learning by tracing , i suggested the rotoscopy thing, since this is the only good way for a beginner to start making a game with pixel art if he has no knowledge in drawing. and it was a joke.

One of the most said advices in Nude sketch classes is not to draw with lines because that's what a large part of students tend to do. Those who sketch without lines and with volume are the already talented.

[JWK5]

I have seen enough people who abandoned pursing art because they've learnt bad habits difficult to unlearn. And most those cases were in  arts déco in Strasbourg (art school).
I don't really care that the fact you're making tutorials and graphs and stuff (they are good but not this one imo) is something that put more value to your sayings, do you need me to scan diplomas and stuff?

You're missing the point. The point is that I've seen first hand people learn through using tracing. The branching lines I've shown above, and the usage of outlines to visualize the 2D space a form occupies work well, and have worked well for many people I've taught. Speed-tracing, etc. produce results that I've seen with my own eyes. I am not commenting based off of speculation, I am commenting based off of first hand knowledge.

Why can't you show me a case of an artist who learnt by tracing or consider that tracing is a good way for a beginner to learn drawing?

What good would it do if I am not actually showing you them tracing? I could pick random people and you'd never know (unless you are so hellbent on arguing you decided to play detective). Plus its a waste of my time, creating a tutorial at least puts something useful out there and has some usage beyond arguing whereas collecting "proof" for you does not. For that matter, though, as I've said it was one of the tools I myself used to learn, so there's that at least.

One of the most said advices in Nude sketch classes is not to draw with lines because that's what a large part of students tend to do. Those who sketch without lines and with volume are the already talented.

I've heard a lot of things said by a lot of teachers (including the effective use of tracing in learning). Different methods, different mouths. In the end finding something that works (for you the student) is what matters. The goal is not to have the "one true method", the goal is to figure out how to create the art you want to create.

Anyways, there is nothing more to be said without going in circles and I don't want to do that.

[ｂ∀ ｋｋｕｓａ]

What good would it do if I am not actually showing you them tracing? I could pick random people and you'd never know (unless you are so hellbent on arguing you decided to play detective). Plus its a waste of my time, creating a tutorial at least puts something useful out there.

because facts? and i'm curious about how far went the art progress of the people you taught with tracing.
And contrary to you i've never seen the results you've seen.

Tracing is a valid choice in art school. (Tracing with projector on big canvas) i could put some examples of brussels students who made exposition in paris but i can't remember their name right now.  But they mostly got stuck at some point with this medium. Because (art - money) no one willing to pay big sum for illustrations way too close to photography or photoshopped photography.

Anyways, it's op or anyone wanting to learn decision whether he considers tracing or not a good way for his progress.

[JWK5]

Anyways, it's op or anyone wanting to learn decision whether he considers tracing or not a good way for his progress.

That I agree with. It is an option to explore, nothing less and nothing more.


EDIT:

and i'm curious about how far went the art progress of the people you taught with tracing.

I am not going to pander to petty arguing, but curiosity is another matter. I don't really have time to go hunting all their galleries down but I at least can think of the URL for one of them right of the top of my head. My friend Dan has a pretty cool gallery and animated style.

Ages ago (scarily enough, now that I think about it almost a decade) he was basically just editing RPG Maker characters and trying to imitate the art of Breath of Fire, but I pushed him to start getting more into art and started teaching him how to trace, sketch, use color, etc. and over the years he just took off on his own. I don't have the time for it at the moment (about to leave somewhere), but I will try to hunt down some of his early work so you can see the progression (I have it saved on my laptop with some of our early projects). Anyways, tracing was one of his learning tools as well.

EDIT 2:
Okay, here we go. This takes me back. His drawing on the left, mine on the right. This was back ages ago when his style started resembling mine (at the time) less and less and going in its own direction. I wish I could find the beginning stuff, back when he'd just started with the tracing and learning the basics, but I will have to dig deep for it (I wish I had more time right now or I would).



In any case, I hope that satisfies your curiosity a bit. I've helped a lot of people over two decades, it is interesting to see how things turned out from there.

[ｂ∀ ｋｋｕｓａ]

Thanks for taking a piece of your time.
It's always interesting to see how artstyle evolves over time.
If you ever find some time at any moment ,even a month from now, i'm still interested to see his early work when you started teaching him.

how long did you teach him until he got to that level?

[JWK5]

I believe that drawing there was done some time back in 2004. I think we'd been drawing together a year or two by that point but he had already picked up the pace quite early on (most people that I work with do, though I am not the greatest artist I am good at breaking down concepts into easier to understand terms). His art did go through a lot of mutations (much like my own) and even with that pic there it is drastically different from what's in his gallery now (he went more cartoon-y/anime-like where I tend to be more texture-happy). How fast someone learns just depends on how much sense the lessons make to them, really.

I found an old page showing my progress as an artist I did ages ago (I need to do another) which shows how I changed artistically over 10 years when it came to just my comic/game character drawings:



Learning art isn't as difficult as a lot of people make it out to be or feel it is, the hard part is just learning under the right terms. For each person what sinks in and what comes across sounding like jargon varies, when teaching the main thing is just figuring out what will sink in and how you can put it to get it to do so.

I still take the time to teach people who are seriously wanting to learn, online and off, just these days having a wife and kids and all the responsibilities that come along with that shrinks the time frame I have available to do it in.

Anyone thinking I might be able to help is more than welcome to PM me or start a topic here on the forum and I will do what I can.



EDIT: Another thing to keep in mind is that there are ridiculous amounts of ways to lay the groundwork for a drawing, express an idea, etc. I have studied more than I could sum up in a single post, invented many, and there are still way more out there I haven't even seen yet.

Getting hung up on "the right way" to do anything in art is shooting yourself in the foot and badly limiting yourself. There is no "right way" to go about it, there are just ways that work (for you personally) and ways that don't. Keeping an open mind is crucial.

I used to think when I was younger that you have to go by all these drawing rules I'd learned, then I started encountering artists who had virtually no experience with "the rules" but still drew impressively. It took me a good while to understand that art is about understanding and expressing and no two people understand or express the same way.

Anyways, I quickly doodled out the following. Same general idea, but as you can see any of them could easily be the layout for a character's form. One picture has many roads that could have led up to it, in the end all that matters is if you actually got there and made the picture or not. Use whatever you got, and use it to the fullest.



Anyways, thank you for taking interest (and I am still trying to hunt down Dan's early stuff for you, I am not sure he still has it, I will ask, but I still might have it myself because I hoard projects lol).



EDIT 2: I still didn't find the early early stuff but I did find this in one of our project folders, which is kind of the midpoint in his progression from the pen stuff I posted earlier and the stuff that is in his gallery now. In the following image his stuff is the more cartoonish thick outlined art, mine is the messy paint doodles. It is interesting the way an artist's style can mutate over time.

[ｂ∀ ｋｋｕｓａ]

Thanks 

Learning art isn't as difficult as a lot of people make it out to be or feel it is, the hard part is just learning under the right terms. For each person what sinks in and what comes across sounding like jargon varies, when teaching the main thing is just figuring out what will sink in and how you can put it to get it to do so.

The art section in this forum is interesting as you can see the evolution of some users over time, and it's funny to see that sometime there is like no progress at all.

It's not difficult for some people and difficult for other people. Some people have talents others not. and i don't really think it's a matter of teaching only.
If you have a passion towards something then you'll achieve it or get close to it, even if it takes decades.
There's still the natural selection of whether you're talented or not.

Getting hung up on "the right way" to do anything in art is shooting yourself in the foot and badly limiting yourself. There is no "right way" to go about it, there are just ways that work (for you personally) and ways that don't. Keeping an open mind is crucial.

I agree with that.
The problem is with tracing. Or you can teach someone to trace while analyzing the artist thinking, technique, brushwork.   
I might be wrong on this but there is not need at all to study outlines since humans tend to recognize objects by their shape thus the outlines. (cf symbols)

imo The only benefict of tracing would be steady hand practicing but that's something you get while practicing your own drawing.

i like this one.

[Kyle Preston]

practice constantly.......you will be able to build a strong library of intimately studied objects, scenes, figures, etc. in your memory that will serve as the building blocks for future works

In the short amount of time I've spent drawing, I've found this to be absolutely true. Thank you for the constructive responses JWK5. I wouldn't consider myself a confident artist and I'm mostly drawing and designing to keep my brain creative and busy while I'm not writing music; people really do read these boards so your honesty and transparency is greatly appreciated  .  When I read generic blanket statements like:

tracing is evil

without any provided context, I usually just dismiss it. Even if it is good advice, I'd rather figure it out on my own than just adopt a half-assed opinion on the internet. b∀kkusa, it seems like you're just putting yourself in a smaller and smaller box trying to defend an opinion I'm not even sure you believe. You've already admitted several circumstances in which tracing, in your opinion, is okay, even helpful. I found the rest of your initial advice to be totally true though, in my experience. Also I'm a dumb composer and feel like a sheep amongst wolves right now.

[JWK5]

Thank you. I'm more of an explorer of art than a refiner of art, the purpose of art for me is to find all sorts of different ways of seeing and expressing so I am constantly on the lookout for new things to try and new concepts to take in.

Anyways, these observations might be something useful to beginners. What it demonstrates is how the body uses a system of counter-balancing to move energy along it in order to drive the movement action. Some of these are old, but hopefully you get the idea.





That alternating "D" shape is the result of muscles bulging (contracting) in order to cause other muscles to stretch, in turn pulling the bones like levers and generating motion. If you really look, in almost any pose you look at you will see this system of alternating stretching and contracting (and thus can trace the path of energy zigzagging through the body acting almost like a coiling spring compressing and releasing).

[P-Flute]

uh... I guess I'll just leave my 2c on tracing, which is to definitely not lean on it. But since a lot of drawing is confidence and muscle memory, if tracing helps you with that (as a little exercise) go nuts. Obviously don't claim it's your own, don't trace for finished pieces (unless you took the photograph you're tracing from but that's another argument entirely), probably don't upload it/show it off. But as a little exercise, if it helps it helps.

I haven't traced since I was a little one, but I do reproduce other art in sketches sometimes. Even if I'm just copying a character line for line by eye, I find at the end of it I feel much more confident and prepared to draw them from scratch in unique poses and my own style and stuff.

OH but for OP: Yeah what JWK5 said. #1 is keep creating. Go go go go. All the skill stuff is #2-#whatever. Anatomy is AWESOME as a central pillar for being a skilled artist! But that back and forth of comfort vs discomfort is vital. If you feel yourself burning out, go back to doing Sonic fan characters or what the hell ever it is that amps you up. Energize, execute, repeat.

[fullmontis]

For the OP: If you want to do sprites for a game, you really should start doing sprites right away. This way you'll find what you don't like in what you are drawing and give you a specific subject to work on. Drawing/coloring is a HUGE field, and if you start just with drawing you'll learn lots of stuff you won't really need to do sprites.

(Unless you WANT to learn to draw... In that case, that is awesome and you should definitely start as soon as you can).

And about the whole tracing discussion... Tracing is like using training wheels... Nothing wrong with it, but if you are sticking with it, then you are doing something wrong.

In the end, when doing art what you need to copy is in your mind, and you can't really trace that (I wish I could). An artist should really be able to draw just by looking, which is not half as hard as many artist make it sound. It allows one to learn way faster and understand better what is going on. Not to mention that it is way more satisfying...