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TIGSource ForumsPlayerGamesRipped off, but is it newsworthy?
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Author Topic: Ripped off, but is it newsworthy?  (Read 31837 times)
princec
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« Reply #20 on: April 06, 2009, 07:12:55 AM »

Haven't got a problem with the art, mate, that's the only bit that's actually different (although, hehe, nice choice of colours, no?)

No I thought it'd be better to talk about all this shit nice and openly and see Toadtrip's accounting for themselves, all nice and publicly, because I'm proper fucked off your Toadtrip guy is still, to my face, trying to tell me that Space Mutants from Space is based on Space Invaders, when in fact, it is wholesale copied from Titan Attacks. Every detail. He persists in trying to bullshit to me, to my face:
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Where did I defend the originality of Space Mutants? I’ve always maintained that it was a Space Invaders clone with a shop. I said as much on the comments section before your arrival. It’s just odd you know? I find it odd that you try to defend the originality of your game by attacking Space Mutants, when your game is in no way shape or form, original. Nor is ours. Don’t you think that it’s a little hypocritical calling out someone on your space invaders clone? Accusing them of lacking grace because they didn’t roll over the moment you accused them (and this is the important part, accused) on public forum? To me, it appears you lack grace, you lack grace because you’re attacking us publicly. Moreover, you want me to associate Space Mutants to your game and ignore all the other influences I’ve had in my gaming life, some of which I listed in the previous shout. I won’t associate Space Mutants with Titan Attacks because to do so would be a lie, a lie because it ignores all the Space Invaders, Galaga, R-Types, Smash-TVs I’ve had influences from. And your petty attempts to redirect the people of Kongregate to your site to get a few extra bucks won’t work either. The people on Kong come here for FREE games, this is something you don’t seem to be getting, and don’t want comment spam in the form of advertising. If you don’t like free games, Kongregate and are only seeking exposure for your title, go elsewhere. Or make a flash game and stick it on Kong, and get it to redirect to your site.
I mean, the guy must think I have an IQ of 20, which given that adults generally own up pronto when they're caught with their pants down, makes me suspect he's somewhat younger than that in years.

The music industry, the novel industry, the technology industry, the board game industry -- if anyone had tried anything remotely of the sort, they'd have been sued out of existence before you could stutter "cease and desist". Hell, Hasbro even fuck game developers over for making anything with "Oids" in the title involving rocks, etc. etc. (you probably know they're a litigous bunch of cunts). Look what happened to Scrabulous. But we know that sort of behaviour is pretty shitty, because then there'd be spurious lawsuits from the likes of Taito when anyone tried to make a game involving shooting aliens from a turret that moves left and right. So instead what we do in this industry, is we're nice and upfront about where our game mechanics come from (see our homepage?).

There are 12 mechanics in Space Invaders.

You shoot upwards (1 bullet at a time), you move left and right, the aliens come in waves, they move from left to right and slowly descend, they get faster each level, they speed up when there are less left on the screen, the aliens shoot back randomly, every now and again a saucer comes by the top for bonus points, you get 3 lives and die from one hit, the aim of the game is to score points, you get bonus lives for scoring points, and there are some barricades replenished every level.

Titan uses 9 of those mechanics, and adds a further 20:

A score multiplier, increased every level you take no damage, reset to zero if you get hit; money for kills to use elsewhere; ships that fall from the sky for bonus points; aliens parachuting for bonus money; escape penalty if you fail to capture aliens; powerups dropped from the saucers; a challenge stage every 7 levels for bonus points and prizes; a boss stage every 10 levels; a shop between levels; shields instead of lives; increasing cost of shields depending on how many you have; smartbombs which increase in cost permanently; addons to your ship; upgrades to speed, fire rate, and damage; different alien movement patterns; different alien weaponry; varied backgrounds telling a story of destruction and war; 5 different sets of backgrounds and aliens (worlds); online hiscores; and last but not least, mouse control.

It'd be fair to say then that Titan Attacks is based on Space Invaders (and probably a bunch of other games). Which is why we say so, even though Space Invaders is only a third of the game mechanic, but it's the that third that comes from just one game - all the other mechanics are either present in thousands of other games, or original so far as I know. But there we have it: we based our game on Space Invaders and we're proud to acknowledge it.

Now disassemble Space Mutants from Space and count the mechanics. I think they've got 28 of our 29 (dunno if the graphics or anything change in later levels, couldn't be bothered to play that far, but I think I noticed smartbombs never made it into SMfS) yet the author has been trying to pass off his game as being based on Space Invaders too, despite this incredible coincidence, and nothing to do with Titan Attacks. To ME! He actually persists in telling me, the author, that TA was at best a subliminal influence on SMfS! - and then tells me (someone, I suspect, about twice his age) to "grow up". FFS, people stop behaving like that when they're kids. You get caught out, you own up, apoligise, try to make amends - you don't just keep digging your hole deeper and deeper. Who looks more like a tool here, mate?

Also, Mr Gnome you must be daft if you think I'm stupid enough to spam the comments. I think you'll find the other comments mentioning TA there are from other developers (maybe some players, too). I don't need resort to cloak-and-dagger, that's why I'm publicly criticising your sorry plagiaristic asses here, under my own name, the same handle I use on the entire internet. Except Digg, where it's Puppygames because someone pinched princec before I did.

Cas Smiley
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Mipe
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« Reply #21 on: April 06, 2009, 07:16:55 AM »

Ooh this is getting interesting!  Well, hello there! You'll have to order another bag of popcorn, Alec.
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Farmergnome
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« Reply #22 on: April 06, 2009, 07:25:42 AM »

I think your mind is made up princec, didnt micheal from rocksolid games make the first version of the game anyway?  because thats what I heard.

Well man, I like your games, but your comming of as a bit of a tool still, I think I might sit on the sideline and watch you ragequit because someone made a similar game thats available for free   Mock Anger   oh nooeess

edit: btw wesley was the one you were speaking to on kong.
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Corpus
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« Reply #23 on: April 06, 2009, 07:26:07 AM »

Haven't got a problem with the art, mate

Cas Smiley

If only..
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princec
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« Reply #24 on: April 06, 2009, 07:31:44 AM »

I paid Mike to write Puppyinvaders. Chaz did the art, I tuned it up. Mike's a friend of mine.

I'm hardly gonna ragequit a forum I only appear on once a year now Smiley

See, I don't have a problem with anyone making a game just like one of ours (bar the graphics of course, then we'd sue coz there's laws for that). I was just a bit miffed that Toadtrip didn't acknowledge that it was a clone of Titan Attacks (not Space Invaders) - obviously because you don't want people to see TA as well, natch, no-one's accusing you of being stupid too - but when he tried to act all innocent and started trying to talk down to me... well.

It's like looking at Bart Simpson next to a broken window holding a football saying, "I didn't do it!"

Cas Smiley
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Valter
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« Reply #25 on: April 06, 2009, 07:32:20 AM »

princec, I kind of doubt you're going to find many people who will take your pleas for help seriously. Bootlegging games is deadly-serious business, but losing your temper over it will only exacerbate manners.

To start, what was the difference in time between your game's release and the other game's release? God knows there's about a jillion "Space Invaders Inspired" games out there. And there's most likely a similar amount of games with fancy shop features.

The most important difference is that the two games apparently play differently. It sounds like Space Mutants is more mellow, and your game is more hardcore. As such, they're both going to find different niches in the gamer community.

Considering that there are fairly significant differences between that games, I can't really agree with what you're saying. If you had handled things more maturely, or at least discussed your grievances before littering the kongregate page, I might have been more sympathetic to your plight. Your abrasive language and rude bearing unfortunately forces me to question the validity of your claims.
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Farmergnome
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« Reply #26 on: April 06, 2009, 07:35:12 AM »

Cool then its settled then, everyone back to cloning games!

........I mean making games.
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« Reply #27 on: April 06, 2009, 07:35:38 AM »

I kinda want to make a game called the "29 Mechanics" now.
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Valter
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« Reply #28 on: April 06, 2009, 07:38:26 AM »

Having played a bit of Space Mutants, and look up on Titan Attacks a bit, I'd say the differences are definitely too severe to be complaining this much. Space Mutants is pretty much a strictly casual game, while yours is more serious. Also, every feature that you're saying they ripped off is a logical design choice to be made when making a Space Invaders tribute.

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princec
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« Reply #29 on: April 06, 2009, 07:38:42 AM »

Er, I made one single post on the Kongregate page.

Now Valter, you've got 3,490 posts here, so I'd assume you know your shit. Read through again what's going on here instead of skimming the posts. I don't mind that they copied TA almost entirely - yes, they did, play them both, the differences are inconsequential - I minded that they did it without acknowledgement (not permission - nobody needs or requires our permission). All we ask of each other is respect and instead I get insult and barefaced cheek. Mature people discuss things in the open, so here we are.

FYI there are exactly 0 other games that play exactly like Titan Attacks. Except for SMfS. The differences in SMfS I can copy almost exactly by twiddling my XML files with the configs in.

I dunno exactly why everyone wants to leap to Toadtrip's defence here to be honest. You'd be pretty fucked off if you were in our shoes wouldn't you?

Cas Smiley
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princec
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« Reply #30 on: April 06, 2009, 07:43:18 AM »

Having played a bit of Space Mutants, and look up on Titan Attacks a bit, I'd say the differences are definitely too severe to be complaining this much. Space Mutants is pretty much a strictly casual game, while yours is more serious. Also, every feature that you're saying they ripped off is a logical design choice to be made when making a Space Invaders tribute.
TA is strictly a casual game. That's why it sells to casual players. SMfS is almost a simple reskinning of TA with some numbers changed. It's like I took Scrabble, changed the name to WordWiz and altered the points values on some of the letters.

And jesus christ can you really say that every feature I'm saying is ripped off is a logical design choice to be made when making a Space Invaders tribute with a straight face? You've just entirely, completely, belittled game design as being something you can just scrawl down on the back of a fag packet while taking a shit. TA took 6 months to make and tune. Nothing was obvious.

Cas Smiley
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Fuzz
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« Reply #31 on: April 06, 2009, 07:44:50 AM »

Er, I made one single post on the Kongregate page.

Now Valter, you've got 3,490 posts here, so I'd assume you know your shit. Read through again what's going on here instead of skimming the posts. I don't mind that they copied TA almost entirely - yes, they did, play them both, the differences are inconsequential - I minded that they did it without acknowledgement (not permission - nobody needs or requires our permission). All we ask of each other is respect and instead I get insult and barefaced cheek. Mature people discuss things in the open, so here we are.

FYI there are exactly 0 other games that play exactly like Titan Attacks. Except for SMfS. The differences in SMfS I can copy almost exactly by twiddling my XML files with the configs in.

I dunno exactly why everyone wants to leap to Toadtrip's defence here to be honest. You'd be pretty fucked off if you were in our shoes wouldn't you?

Cas Smiley
Well, I haven't played either game, but just from reading this topic, it doesn't seem like you're acting maturely at all. All the changes you've made from Space Invaders seem very much like things that anyone would do if they were making an expanded Space Invaders clone. If someone has all those mechanics and their game, they're not cloning you. They're making a Space Invaders clone with a few good mechanics. It's very likely that they had never heard of your game or were hardly thinking about it when they were making their game. You're saying that you feel offended by all their "insults" (which are really just reasonable defenses of themselves), but how do you think they feel when you rant on about them here?
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Renton
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« Reply #32 on: April 06, 2009, 07:48:18 AM »

Before I leave the thread forever:
Fuck you, what's done is done, people have been cloning other people's games since forever, move the fuck on.

Renton Smiley
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princec
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« Reply #33 on: April 06, 2009, 07:48:57 AM »

Like cocks, I should hope.
First response I got from Toadtrip (Wes) was to "Grow up." If that's not an insult I don't know what is.

Fuzz, write me a Space Invaders tribute. Try not to write a Titan Attacks tribute. Let me know when it's finished and you can tell me that it was easy.

Cas Smiley
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Fuzz
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« Reply #34 on: April 06, 2009, 07:51:05 AM »

Like cocks, I should hope.
First response I got from Toadtrip (Wes) was to "Grow up." If that's not an insult I don't know what is.

Fuzz, write me a Space Invaders tribute. Try not to write a Titan Attacks tribute. Let me know when it's finished and you can tell me that it was easy.

Cas Smiley
You know, that's really no way to argue. I'm not saying it was easy for you to make your game, I'm just saying I doubt the other game is very much inspired by yours.
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princec
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« Reply #35 on: April 06, 2009, 07:54:39 AM »

In that case you probably don't want to pass comment until you play them both, eh?

Cas Smiley
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Farmergnome
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« Reply #36 on: April 06, 2009, 07:56:00 AM »

Another thing  dude, Space Mutants from Space was made for free, no sponsors, no ads, we aren't making any money on it (well apart from kongs ad revenue - woot beer money) , we just wanted to make a kickass space invaders game for free for people to play, thats it.  I think you are spinning this shit a little bigger than it needs to be.

Does pixel freak out every time someone makes a freeware cave story clone?  HOLAY SHIT THE WORLD ENDS   Cave Story
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« Reply #37 on: April 06, 2009, 07:57:48 AM »

Fuck, the last bag of microwave popcorn burned. I can never get the timing right.
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Alex May
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« Reply #38 on: April 06, 2009, 07:59:30 AM »

Fuck, the last bag of microwave popcorn burned. I can never get the timing right.
here, has mine

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« Reply #39 on: April 06, 2009, 08:04:32 AM »

Of course. We've had several users on the TIGForums with similar grievances as yours, like Jed who posted earlier.

Some things you aren't considering, though:

1. "Space Invaders Tribute" isn't exactly prolific, but at the same time, it's been done. And the upgrade and shop system has been appended to just about every genre imaginable. It would probably take me about 30 minutes to find a game on the internet which you obviously copied.

2. You're obviously not considering the difference in art styles very seriously. The shmup genre has seen just about every single variation on gameplay humanly possible. You dodge the bullets, you shoot the bad guys. Certainly there are still new innovations that show up on occasion, like "bullet scraping" where you try to only barely dodge enemy bullets in order to charge up a shield or power attack. This is still a very small percentage of shmups, though, and most follow the "if it's not broken, don't fix it" policy and use the parameters already established by other games.

What that means is that in the shmup genre, the gameplay design decisions you make are unlikely to matter at all (since they've probably been done a thousand times before), and no one's going to call you out on them. What matters is A) the artwork, and B) the actual enemy formations and bullet patterns.

The shmup genre is hardly the only genre to follow those rules, too. The platformer (protagonist runs to the exit), Tower Defense (build towers to defeat enemies moving in a line), and arena shooter (sit in a box and shoot lots of bad guys) genres all follow those conventions somewhat as well. They all have their own room for innovations, but if you want to make a core game of a genre (as Titan Attacks is pretty clearly a core game of the "Space Invaders" genre), you should follow those conventions as a rule of thumb.

My main point is that you didn't accomplish anything that significantly separates you from the Space Invaders genre. The shop mechanic, as has been mentioned before, has been done already. I don't consider the idea of escaping enemies to be that groundbreaking. Nothing you did couldn't be thought up by any other design team wondering how to make a good Space Invaders tribute.

As such, you should expect people to follow the same or similar design choices when they make games in the same genre.

(I'm probably taking this too seriously. Still, I love to take my analytical thinking too far on occasion. It's sort of like a brain exercise to see just how many ways I can prove that someone else is wrong.)
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