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[TheArtistJiii]

My question is a simple one. Would a implementing a story/narrative improve a games marketability or it's value? I'm sure the answer is obvious, but, i'm wondering if it could work for games that were simply not made for a story. I'm talking about arena survival games pretty much. Thanks.

[Gurigraphics]

Help 6% perhaps.

[Morch]

I don't think you'll ever get a "correct" answer for that question.

From a business perspective, it depends on the game you are making, the market you are aiming for and the way you are doing your PR. What you should be thinking about is what makes your game marketable at all? How will it detach itself from the rest of the pack? Or how can you build a PR campaign that will set your game apart.

From a production perspective, what would be the cost of making a story to your game? Are you starting off vs finishing? Do you have the tools/framework to build an in-game story? Do you have the core talent (you or someone else) to pull off something interesting and worthwhile?

From an artistic perception, do you want to tell a story? Do you feel like writing a story for your universe will add to the game?

Help 6% perhaps.

This doesn't help at all.

First of all, when you link a graph like this, please link with the proper reference article so we can read up on the context of the graph. Not sure if this was the origin of the image, but here is one I found.

Secondly, the OP hasn't stated what market he is aiming at. The supplied graph gives information about the top grossing mobile games on iOS for the US market. That is already super-specific data for a very specific market. Even if that market is important in today's game industry, it doesn't mean that the OP is going for this market. Plus, this data is from 2015, which in the mobile market is a long time ago, this is even stated in the article itself.

Let's keep poking at that graph. According to this data, the most important thing for a top grossing mobile iOS app in the US is branding/publisher. So, if I am to understand this data, if you want to succeed, you need to sign up with Marvel or something. Publishers and branding are two things that indie developers tend to shy away from. They are business opportunities, but it doesn't mean it the only path.

If story is so unimportant (even if it is in the graph!), then why to visual novels exist? Then why does a game like Long Live the Queen exist and sell hundreds of thousands of copies.

Data is nice, but understanding that the game industry is a complex business full of different markets and opportunities is much more important.

[Shine Klevit]

A narrative is nothing more than something you put in a game in order to enhance people's playing experience, and give value to their actions in game. It should come along organically in the process of assembling ideas for a game. So, asking the marketing effect of tacking a story/narrative on is completely pointless.

[TheArtistJiii]

I don't think you'll ever get a "correct" answer for that question.

From a business perspective, it depends on the game you are making, the market you are aiming for and the way you are doing your PR. What you should be thinking about is what makes your game marketable at all? How will it detach itself from the rest of the pack? Or how can you build a PR campaign that will set your game apart.

From a production perspective, what would be the cost of making a story to your game? Are you starting off vs finishing? Do you have the tools/framework to build an in-game story? Do you have the core talent (you or someone else) to pull off something interesting and worthwhile?

From an artistic perception, do you want to tell a story? Do you feel like writing a story for your universe will add to the game?

Very insightful. Thank you.

[Gurigraphics]

A other vision about story and narrative

If the game is good, the story of save the princess may be sufficient.

However, we can differentiate story and narrative.

There is always a narrative behind a game. However, the story is often hidden.

In Chess game the narrative is important. However, the story which occurs with pawns, bishops, kings and horses is not important.
With others puzzle and adventure games is the same.

This division story and narrative is useful to distinguish what is more important in a story for a game.
That is, between what works and what just fills space.

The traditional stories can be narrated with words, sounds, images, animations and videos.

However, the narrative is broader than story. There are other ways of telling stories. And games is one.

In a film, story and narrative are combined.
In a game, story and narrative are separated.

In a game, the developer can create the elements of stories and narratives. But it is always the players who create the final narrative.

The narrative and story of a game may be hidden in the game play and level design itself:

I pass a stage, what will happen then?
I won a gun, what will I can make then?
I killed a boss, what will happen then?

Note that what the stories itself is not important, but yes what they can do.

For example, with the graphic you know that retention and progression is much important.


http://www.gamerefinery.com

So, your story and possible narratives is able to help this?

I think that between guessing and data, better you pay more attention to data.
And no matter if it's Iphone or 2005. Because the probability that this is same more important is higher than any guesses.

This is not an absolute truth. It is only a way to make better decisions.

Visual novel the story is really important. But, maybe a little less than the story with better graphics.
Then, if you are good only with stories, better write a book, or find someone to do all the rest of 94% of game.
Because, the paper or text accepts everything. However, the code, no.

http://gurigraphics.blogspot.com.br/2016/06/a-other-vision-about-story-and-narrative.html

[Morch]

Gurigraphics, while I agree with your distinction between narrative and story, I think your reliance on data is too important, especially for the subject of the current thread.

And in the end, we still don't know the type of game the OP is trying to make, so quoting your graph automatically is just plain wrong.

The themes affecting grossing rank in your graph are very free-to-play specific. Out of 8 influencing themes, 4 of them are retention. In traditional games, retention is important, but a lot less so, because a very high percentage of the potential revenue was made when the game was bought (refunds non withstanding). In free-to-play, retention is a REALLY important factor, because retention eventually leads to monetization, hence it's importance in this graph.

The third theme in importance is in-app purchases. What if you sell you game at a fixed price, like traditional premium? What does that bar even mean in the graph? The presence of in-app purchases? The right balance of in-app purchases? The absence of in-app purchases?

Finally, if we were to follow your graph, then the most important thing would be to get access to a strong brand to ensure success. Indies typically don't have access to strong brands. Does this mean we cannot compete on any market? No, it means that your graph is specifically tailored towards the top grossing free-to-play games on the iOS store in the US.

I think that between guessing and data, better you pay more attention to data.

Who said anything about guessing? If you are really business-centric, then you know that market analysis is the traditional way to understand what other products exists and who they are selling to. When the big indie wave started at the end of the 2000 decade, what we saw were small companies filling in the market holes left by the large companies. Everyone's doing 3D? I'll do pixel art! And, at the time, this worked (today, that market is probably saturated, but this is another subject).

I work in the free-to-play business, in which data reigns like a king. And I've worked a long time in traditional AAA, where there is data, but a completely different set of data about the market. And despite all this data, even if we are in a business, there are still calls that are made that go against the data. Some go with the data, but some try to disrupt the market by trying something different.

And no matter if it's Iphone or 2005. Because the probability that this is same more important is higher than any guesses.

No, it does matter. That the whole point of scientific data analysis. If you remove super-important variables like market and time frame, then what is the point of data? The mobile market IS different from other markets (console, PC, casual PC, browser MMOs, the list is long). 2005? In 2005, there was barely a mobile market, free-to-play was relatively unknown and metrics like retention were almost unheard of. Your graph would make little sense in 2005.

Visual novel the story is really important. But, maybe a little less than the story with better graphics.Then, if you are good only with stories, better write a book, or find someone to do all the rest of 94% of game.

Maybe a little less? Is Undertale less of a critical and financial hit because of its old-school graphics? What is "better graphics" anyhow? Did you get that 94% by subtracting the 6% in your graph to 100%? This is not how games are made, or how that graph should be read.

Because, the paper or text accepts everything. However, the code, no.

OK, do you even understand the potential of the games media? There are no limits. The code accepts everything. The market can absorb any kind of product as long as there are buyers that can find your product and pay for it.

You are in the business section of the INDIE developers forum. The indie community didn't build itself on following market trends and data. It was built on and thrives on doing some things differently. Trying new gameplay, trying new markets, trying new ways of doing PR and marketing. Sure, the business part of releasing a game is not what indies are best at, but blindly following any type of data is not the way to go.

[Gurigraphics]

What I wrote is wrong? Worse was you say that what I wrote was wrong.

What I wrote is usefull as an introduction to think about. But, is obvious that is possible to improve more.
Because about each one of these details is possible write several books and blablabla.

What you wrote, for me it is not new. But it can be useful for those who read.

No one spoke of making free or paid game. Anyway, retention it is much important in both.
Because a game that does not retain the user is a bad game.
However, if your goal is to sell a game that they play only 10 minutes, ok, disregard the chart.

In-app purchases in chart It is one thing for me:

The stores promote much more the free games that have purchases, than free games without purchases because they profit much more from it.

Brand & Publisher in chart It is one thing for me:

Professional marketing works better than amateur marketing.

Besides that, even that 50% of 10.000 is 5.000. Consider that 100% of 0 is 0.

And all this is more relevant than story.

If you think otherwise ok. At least, I'm not saying you're wrong.

OK, do you even understand the potential of the games media? There are no limits. The code accepts everything. The market can absorb any kind of product as long as there are buyers that can find your product and pay for it.

What I mean to say is that you can write any preposterous story. The paper accepts it all.
Programming is not so. A comma out of place no longer works.
Can you imagine any fantasy in your head or on paper or text.
Turn this in code is another reality.
How much more complex, more harder, and more bugs appear.
So writing a book is much more easier.

Maybe a little less? Is Undertale less of a critical and financial hit because of its old-school graphics? What is "better graphics" anyhow? Did you get that 94% by subtracting the 6% in your graph to 100%? This is not how games are made, or how that graph should be read.

Better graphics are graphics with harmony of colors and shapes.
No matter whether it is 3d, vector or pixel art.
What matters is knowing how to do this much well as write a story.


You understood now, or I keep wrong?


So, who does not have much time to think about this can follow what I said.

And who wants to do market research and all the rest can take into consideration you suggested making.
If you suggested something while criticizing...

One way or another, is always better pay attention to what is most important and probable,
and pay less attention to what not is much relevant and improbable.

This is basic for those who need to perform many different functions and can not see become expert at all.

Pareto principle - roughly 80% of the results come from 20% of the work.

Lastly, flee of the councils, guesswork,and absolute truths.

[Morch]

I'm sorry to bring this up, but it's really difficult to understand what you are saying. So, I'm going to answer very simply.

Your graph is not wrong.
Data is good.
Data gives us information on markets.
Trying to apply any data to any market is bad.
Even the original article with this graph says so.

The least important (but still important if you want to make a truly successful game) one is Audiovisual & Story (the visual genre, is it a true 3d game or not, how smooth the animation is, what narrative elements the game has etc.). The result is not surprising: if you want to make a successful mobile game that is played not only days or weeks but months and years, graphics alone won’t get you there – this is totally different compared to triple A console or PC games where graphics plays a much bigger role.

Notice what the end of the quote says, visuals/story are not as important as in other markets.
Markets are different, so different data.

The stores promote much more the free games that have purchases, than free games without purchases because they profit much more from it.

While stores do promote lots of free-to-play games, there is another side.
Apple, at least, has made a lot of promotion of "pay once, play forever" products. This is because it fits more with their values, even if they are making lots of money with F2P.

Now for branding and other stuff.
Again from the same article.

The Top 3 factors that are the most important in driving success at the moment are Brand & Publisher (for example is it based on a well-known brand, who is the publisher/developer), game mechanics (how the game is played) and how the monetization mechanics/in-app purchases are built (what you can buy and how).

No mention of marketing. Just using brand and who is the publisher has effect.
At least the article says what they mean by in-app purchase in the graph.

What I mean to say is that you can write any preposterous story. The paper accepts it all.
Programming is not so. A comma out of place no longer works.
Can you imagine any fantasy in your head or on paper or text.
Turn this in code is another reality.
How much more complex, more harder, and more bugs appear.
So writing a book is much more easier.

I agree with you.
Except, my original point was to say this:
Some products are based on story and do very well financially and critically.
If we were to listen to your data/graph, no games would have story.
A healthy market is a market which answers to many different tastes with different products.

Better graphics are graphics with harmony of colors and shapes.

Sorry, but art doesn't work well with absolutes.

Speaking of absolutes:

So, who does not have much time to think about this can follow what I said.

So, don't think, just do what you say?

Besides that, even that 50% of 10.000 is 5.000. Consider that 100% of 0 is 0.

Pareto principle - roughly 80% of the results come from 20% of the work.

Lastly, flee of the councils, guesswork,and absolute truths.

These are just phrases thrown in without context.
General rules you are writing to try to give arguments.


I think I've made my point, so I will not be answering to this thread anymore, unless someone else has something interesting to say.

OP, I hope you got your answer.

[Gurigraphics]

"Better graphics are graphics with harmony of colors and shapes". Gurigraphics

"Sorry, but art doesn't work well with absolutes". Morch

That was deep ...

Interesting that I understand everything you write.
But you always makes sure to interpret me in the worst possible way.
I'm always wrong and you right.

I just have to say:

I hopefully you be only a teenager who think that there is one right way of think.

Bye

[alexp]

Yea I think a bit of story is never going to hurt! I think it makes the game more engaging.