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[s0]

It's just TF2 basically

ok not interested then

[ProgramGamer]

It's, uh, kinda more than TF2, but it's very similar to it yeah.

[Raptor85]

it has far more in common with TFC than tf2, tf2 was so slow paced and grounded, personally i found tf2 to be incredibly boring and i love overwatch.  Actually outside of "it has unique champions" there's no real similarities to tf2.  Most overwatch maps are more similar  to the "domination" and "assault" maps from UT, and champion picks/team compositions matter a lot. blizz did a fantastic job of putting the "teamplay" elements from moboas and mixing it with a really fast paced arena shooter.

only fps worth playing that's come out in the past 10 years imho.

[Mittens]

Do you think it's possible that a game could be not fun, but instead be convincing players they are enjoying themselves when they aren't really?
Is the difference worth thinking about? If someone has been convinced they are having fun, is that the same as enjoying an inherently fun game?

I've noticed more games doing this recently, where the reasons people seem to keep playing are all superficial. Operant conditioning, numbers and interface indicating a theoretical progression, slot machine style skin boxes and random drops. All manufacturing a sense of achievement, progression and value when the game being played, isolated from all that, is a repetitive drudge filled with overstimulating colors and sounds.
It makes me feel like I need to help people see they are being tricked, but I don't think that works, maybe these people aren't unaware of what they are playing, maybe they want it to be like that. It frustrates me when people worry more about unlocking pointless skins more than getting into enjoying what I would call a 'real' game. It's like someone opening a Christmas present only to obsess over the wrapping, then throwing the rest away

[Tuba]

I actually wrote about the differences between TF2 and Overwatch a few months ago http://www.gamasutra.com/blogs/ArthurCanziZeferino/20160623/275298/The_Influences_and_Differences_of_Team_Fortress_2_Classes_and_Overwatch_Heroes.php

And already posted on this thread but you guys don't mind, do you? 

[Schoq]

Also campster made a video on it kinda

[Capntastic]

I actually wrote about the differences between TF2 and Overwatch a few months ago http://www.gamasutra.com/blogs/ArthurCanziZeferino/20160623/275298/The_Influences_and_Differences_of_Team_Fortress_2_Classes_and_Overwatch_Heroes.php

And already posted on this thread but you guys don't mind, do you? 

Some good points there

[s0]

Do you think it's possible that a game could be not fun, but instead be convincing players they are enjoying themselves when they aren't really? Is the difference worth thinking about? If someone has been convinced they are having fun, is that the same as enjoying an inherently fun game?

sometimes i play games as an "activity" to pass time when i dont have the mental energy for something more involved (mainly mobile games), not necessarily to have super crazy intense fun

[joseph ¯\_(ツ)_/¯]

Do you think it's possible that a game could be not fun, but instead be convincing players they are enjoying themselves when they aren't really?
Is the difference worth thinking about? If someone has been convinced they are having fun, is that the same as enjoying an inherently fun game?

games succeed on different axes. Predjudicial language (fun/not fun, interesting/not interesting) is good for clear communication, sometimes, but ultimately not the right way to think about it.

Of course it's worth thinking about why a game is good, and how.

[Aquanoctis]

Do you think it's possible that a game could be not fun, but instead be convincing players they are enjoying themselves when they aren't really?
Is the difference worth thinking about? If someone has been convinced they are having fun, is that the same as enjoying an inherently fun game?

Yeah I definitely agree with that. I don't think Overwatch is necessarily one of those games inherently, but I do think either peoples attitudes or the games' systems allow people to get sucked into a skinner box of sorts.
I.e You sometimes see people complain that getting lootboxes in Overwatch is a 'grind' and I just have to wonder, if you've found yourself in that mind-space, playing Overwatch games simply to grind out the next lootbox, then are you actually having fun with the game anymore? Or have you, like you mentioned, convinced yourself you're having fun because you've been roped into a progression loop.

[Tuba]

I don't think fun is something that can be convinced upon someone. But I also don't think everyone play games just to have fun, like Silbereisen said, sometimes you just want some distraction to pass time.

But in my experience Overwatch is a pretty fun game, the game itself is quite deep and learning the details of each hero and mastering them can be a fun process, specially with friends. Everything is skill based and so the XP and lootboxes only give you cosmetic items. I can see some people obsessing over those and grinding for them but it's not something that the game forces on you like some other (specially mobile ones) do.

[JWK5]

Games like 007:GoldenEye, Quake 3, Street Fighter 2, Mortal Kombat, or even chess don't have "loot boxes" or any real concrete rewards for playing another player, yet they are still enjoyable for the experience of competition itself. I don't think it takes Skinner box trickery to want to keep playing Overwatch, it is a fun competitive and social experience all its own and if anything all the loot boxes accomplish is just giving you a fun little side goal to run along side the main experience with.

I think it is going to come down less to "are you just deluding yourself" and more to "why are you playing?" If you are playing because what interests you most in games is their "casino slots" style reward gambling then yeah, Overwatch is going to be a frustrating experience because the loot boxes just aren't catering to that very well and getting the rewards you want will be a grind. On the other hand, if you are jumping into Overwatch because you are looking for a new competitive game to play with others then you'll likely have a lot more fun with it.

Perspective and priorities are important when it comes to discussing motivation and action.

[Schoq]

Online games hinge on a large enough active player base and that's the main reason we see all these hats. "Tricking" of players into spending more time with the game than they would have without ublockables and progression stuff is there to add value for other players.

[Tanner]

overwatch's progression is bad enough that i know i don't play it for the carrot

[Juliano]

Games like 007:GoldenEye, Quake 3, Street Fighter 2, Mortal Kombat, or even chess don't have "loot boxes" or any real concrete rewards for playing another player, yet they are still enjoyable for the experience of competition itself. I don't think it takes Skinner box trickery to want to keep playing Overwatch, it is a fun competitive and social experience all its own and if anything all the loot boxes accomplish is just giving you a fun little side goal to run along side the main experience with.

I think it is going to come down less to "are you just deluding yourself" and more to "why are you playing?" If you are playing because what interests you most in games is their "casino slots" style reward gambling then yeah, Overwatch is going to be a frustrating experience because the loot boxes just aren't catering to that very well and getting the rewards you want will be a grind. On the other hand, if you are jumping into Overwatch because you are looking for a new competitive game to play with others then you'll likely have a lot more fun with it.

Perspective and priorities are important when it comes to discussing motivation and action.

Agreed! The first impression that I had with Overwatch was that the progression was really boring and there were no many reasons to play it for a long period of time. BUT then I sort of gave up that grind mindset that I got mostly from playing MMO's and played just to enjoy the game trying different heroes and stuff.

This is one of the things that Overwatch accomplishes. You don't need a giant progression system to have fun. You can play it non stop and get really addicted just trying different characters, different techniques, etc.

If you are playing only with one character since the start and you want to be the best on the same character it just won't work. It won't be fun, you probably won't get that good (since you won't have enough knowledge about your enemies and how to help your allies) and also your team will probably hate you.

Overwatch is amazingly fun, but you got to be willing to play focusing on the objectives instead of killing people and experiment different playstyles.