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[Garthy]

Nothing wrong with like-minded people teaming up under the conditions that best suit them, coming up with their own project, and working toward it. Paid, unpaid, whatever.

There *is* something wrong with asking someone that you barely know to risk devoting dozens, hundreds, or thousands of hours of their time toward a project without also giving them an amazing reason to accept that risk. It's rude.

Worse is badgering someone when they've already made it clear that they're not interested, or worse, continuing to do so even after they have taken the time to explain *why* they aren't interested.

[Cobralad]

it may be unintentional because some programmers are really confident in their creative vision. Like i receive many proposals that are like "like hearthstone but gud" and people just mumble how good it is cos it is gud.
But yeah, it sucks when someone presses you to work on his garbage even when you dont agree and its even worse when everything you propose gets shot down to push their own vision. This is especially frustrating when programmers try to teach you how to draw also.

[Zizka]

If you don't even have a project started and are waiting for someone to show up so you can explain the project to them so they can work on it for free, that's worthless to everyone.

You nailed it on the head, the part in bold in particular. I mentioned it in a previous message but I had a vast amount of art already done when I contacted the programmer. The composer contacted me. I agree that contacting someone to work on profit share while providing nothing on your own is off-putting to say the least and has a great risk of failing. This is the nuance I was trying to get across but you've worded it perfectly.

I write stuff constantly.  I have tons of ideas for games (who doesn't?)  I can't program well and I can't draw at all.  If I wanted to turn one of my ideas into reality I'd be bound by basic decency to have a design document in place, and some form of payment situation arranged (even if it's a token payment of like, a hundred dollars. Anything less would be a slap in the fucking face.).  And even then I'd want to work with people I've seen around here, that I know are somewhat reliable and reasonable and solid.  And I'd expect them to expect those qualities of me.

I would say a design document is actually not much for a project, it's the bare minimum. I think a dev should have more than that before getting started. Music or art or code or something extra would help. In your case, I think you'd have no choice but to provide upfront payment as all  you would have is a design document. Basically, you have to have some foundations in your project but it doesn't have to be money (in my vision of things). I can see how a composer would be interested to join a project which is finished (art and code) even if it's on a profit share because the game is pretty much done and the risk is not really big.

Also, I agree with the idea that if you're going to try to behave as a business and contract people on a purely professional level to do work for you, then yes, you take the risks and take out a loan and do all that paperwork and do all those taxes.

If it's your dream to make a game, and you think it's fair to make other people get headaches and drip sweat over it, then you should absolutely get night sweats because your project might not recoup its losses.

This I disagree with however. I would provide a nuance:

If you want people to perform tasks for you like grunts, then yes, paying them on the spot is pretty much unavoidable and the right thing to do in my opinion.

On the other hand, if you partner up with people who also have some creative input into the game, it's not the same dynamic. You split up upcoming profit evenly (say 50/50) so people are on equal footing. In this case, they become part of a team and willing participants in the project. I think it'd be unfair to ask one partner to shoulder all the financial risks while the other one just waits on and reaps the benefits. That's the distinction I would make. If you partner up in something and the income is split evenly, then it goes without saying that risk should also be shouldered evenly. That's my stand on it anyway.

There *is* something wrong with asking someone that you barely know to risk devoting dozens, hundreds, or thousands of hours of their time toward a project without also giving them an amazing reason to accept that risk. It's rude.

Yes, I agree with you. The "reason" here can take various shapes however, it doesn't need to be only money. It's this rigid and dogmatic position which I oppose, or at least, which soften a bit. I think the title of the thread is misleading and was meant to serve the purpose of having an outlet to bash people who approach people with profit share as a generality. I mean, "do you work for free" is a pretty leading question, the answer is pretty obvious. It's like asking: "Do you like it when people cut you off on the highway and put your life in danger?" It's a loaded question which aims to lead to one possible answer. I think a more representative title would be: "What's the right way to do "profit share".

This is especially frustrating when programmers try to teach you how to draw also.

I guess it depends how it's done. I don't think you need to be an artist to give valuable criticism. I'm personally open to feedback about my stuff from just about anyone.

[Capntastic]

I write stuff constantly.  I have tons of ideas for games (who doesn't?)  I can't program well and I can't draw at all.  If I wanted to turn one of my ideas into reality I'd be bound by basic decency to have a design document in place, and some form of payment situation arranged (even if it's a token payment of like, a hundred dollars. Anything less would be a slap in the fucking face.).  And even then I'd want to work with people I've seen around here, that I know are somewhat reliable and reasonable and solid.  And I'd expect them to expect those qualities of me.

I would say a design document is actually not much for a project, it's the bare minimum. I think a dev should have more than that before getting started. Music or art or code or something extra would help. In your case, I think you'd have no choice but to provide upfront payment as all  you would have is a design document.

It's almost like you read my mind but the trick is that you merely read what I posted.

[Garthy]

The "reason" here

I said: "amazing reason", and the distinction is important.

The "reason" here can take various shapes however, it doesn't need to be only money.

That's true.

One example of an "amazing reason" that does not involve money would be approaching a developer with an existing game that needs a certain component re-developed. Another would be approaching a graphics designer with an existing game with weak art. Another would be to come in as a project manager with a chain of success stories behind you, an existing team, and a near-complete game. Or as a marketer who has thoroughly researched the market and confirmed a short-term opportunity with a demonstrable low-risk high-return payback, but it is not something that they can exploit on their own.

These are *possibly* good enough reasons to approach someone that you barely know and suggest that they might want to consider working for nothing for a share of profits. But even then, you'd need to approach it delicately, because it is a lot to ask of someone.

An idea, even a really good one, isn't even *close* to this standard. Approaching someone cold and asking them to make that kind of sacrifice with little more than an idea is incredibly rude.

To avoid this, you should restrict these requests to people who have made it clear that they are interested in them. And, most importantly. you need to bring something of your own to the table, even if it is just boundless enthusiasm and a willingness to try anything.

It's this rigid and dogmatic position which I oppose

Fair enough. But it is a personal decision, and neither you nor I have any right to tell others what they should be doing with their time. So, as long as your decision whether to take on unpaid work remains a personal one, then that is an entirely reasonable position. As soon as you start telling other people what they should do with their time, or judging them for their decisions, then you've gone beyond just taking a personal position, and you're starting to act like an asshole.

It's a loaded question which aims to lead to one possible answer.

The question isn't loaded and there is more than one possible answer. People work unpaid for a variety of reasons, under conditions that are of interest to them.

I think a more representative title would be: "What's the right way to do "profit share".

You could start that thread. The thread as it stands is more about the frustrations over being repeatedly asked to devote a large amount of time, entirely unpaid, to people who have come in with little more than a basic idea. If this isn't the thread you want, create the one that is.

[Zizka]

It's almost like you read my mind but the trick is that you merely read what I posted.

Great minds think alike my friend. 

That's true.

One example of an "amazing reason" that does not involve money would be approaching a developer with an existing game that needs a certain component re-developed. Another would be approaching a graphics designer with an existing game with weak art. Another would be to come in as a project manager with a chain of success stories behind you, an existing team, and a near-complete game. Or as a marketer who has thoroughly researched the market and confirmed a short-term opportunity with a demonstrable low-risk high-return payback, but it is not something that they can exploit on their own.

These are *possibly* good enough reasons to approach someone that you barely know and suggest that they might want to consider working for nothing for a share of profits. But even then, you'd need to approach it delicately, because it is a lot to ask of someone.

An idea, even a really good one, isn't even *close* to this standard. Approaching someone cold and asking them to make that kind of sacrifice with little more than an idea is incredibly rude.

To avoid this, you should restrict these requests to people who have made it clear that they are interested in them. And, most importantly. you need to bring something of your own to the table, even if it is just boundless enthusiasm and a willingness to try anything.

I think it sums it up very well. I would agree this is rude:

hey I loved your portfolio..
I've got a great game idea man.. but the problem is I can't pay you until after the game is finished. Do you mind working for free and shouldering all of the risk for a project that isn't yours? Let's keep in touch.

But it shouldn't equate to everyone who doesn't offer money upfront is trying to con someone out of a job. As stated before, there's more nuance than that in my opinion.

Fair enough. But it is a personal decision, and neither you nor I have any right to tell others what they should be doing with their time.

No one does, yes, I agree. If people wish to pursue different initiatives to make their project a reality than offering money they should be allowed to just like people who prefer to offer money should be allowed to as well. Different people, different approaches and possibilities.

The question isn't loaded and there is more than one possible answer. People work unpaid for a variety of reasons, under conditions that are of interest to them.

That's a good point.

The thread as it stands is more about the frustrations over being repeatedly asked to devote a large amount of time, entirely unpaid, to people who have come in with little more than a basic idea.

Yes, being frustrated with a situation and creating a thread to vent about it. As for creating a new thread, it won't be necessary, I feel like current take on it is something constructive and helpful.

[gimymblert]

I know some people who ask for profit sharing and got away for it, on this forums, he is an awesome graphist with zero programming experience, figure out how to start programming many games with scratch, made 20mn worth of animation episode for his game over 3 years ... That I would work for free if I wasn't busy. He did find free programmers to help him.

Work dedication for free help attract peoples for free.


That and any people who want to make a game and hasn't start learning programming isn't credible.

[Garthy]

I think it sums it up very well. I would agree this is rude:

Cool.

If people wish to pursue different initiatives to make their project a reality than offering money they should be allowed to just like people who prefer to offer money should be allowed to as well.

By "pursue different initiatives" and "allowed", do you mean that someone should be allowed to work on something of their own with others on their own terms, or are you talking about an entitlement to approach whoever they want regardless of whether or not the approach is welcome; or something else?

this thread got way to serious for me

Sorry, I think I contributed to this. Toning it down a touch.

[Zizka]

By "pursue different initiatives" and "allowed", do you mean that someone should be allowed to work on something of their own with others on their own terms, or are you talking about an entitlement to approach whoever they want regardless of whether or not the approach is welcome; or something else?

Ah come, don't apologize about the tone of your messages  . They're interesting to read and are supported by good argumentation. Analyzing something on a deeper level does lead to serious interpretation of it more often than not, it's unavoidable. I don't know many conversation who evolve around ethics who turn into comedy central.

About your question, I mean the former, definitely.

[Garthy]

By "pursue different initiatives" and "allowed", do you mean that someone should be allowed to work on something of their own with others on their own terms, or are you talking about an entitlement to approach whoever they want regardless of whether or not the approach is welcome; or something else?

About your question, I mean the former, definitely.

Cool, I'm glad to hear that.

[rj]

christ this thread spiralled out

[Capntastic]

Hey I am trying to build a house (I have a really good idea) and I am looking for an architect, carpenter, mason, electrician, etc to help me out

[Garthy]

Hey I am trying to build a house (I have a really good idea) and I am looking for an architect, carpenter, mason, electrician, etc to help me out

It'll be taller than the Burj Khalifa, more daring than the Sydney Opera House, and the interior will look like the Sistine Chapel. There won't be any pay until we've finished building it, but everyone will get a share of the rent once it is ready.

[Capntastic]

Digging this sewage ditch will look good in your portfolio

[Schoq]

Hey I am trying to build a house (I have a really good idea) and I am looking for an architect, carpenter, mason, electrician, etc to help me out

It'll be taller than the Burj Khalifa, more daring than the Sydney Opera House, and the interior will look like the Sistine Chapel. There won't be any pay until we've finished building it, but everyone will get a share of the rent once it is ready.

incidentally this accurately describes construction working conditions in dubai, except for the share of the rent part

[ProgramGamer]

Digging this sewage ditch will look good in your portfolio

[rj]

Sewage Digger (Internet Guy, 2016-Present)
Dug a sewage ditch, persevered even though I wasn't getting paid any money

Doormat (Internet Guy, 2015)
Allowed someone to basically just walk all over me. It wasn't too bad, I'm still alive on the outside

Least Favorite Child (My Mom, 2010-Present)
Handled tasks such as Crying with efficiency and radical skills