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[DCoward]

Hey all.

Before I begin, yes I know OF other systems to use and I know there's a sticky in reference to that, but really I'm asking for some discussion to maybe stop my frustration with Unity or to maybe point out why it might be good to switch.

Background: I'm in the process of getting everything together to make a tiny little demo, from which I can expand everything into the story I need. I found ORK Framework for Unity, and as cool as it is, since I'm trying to make a 2D JRPG, I've found that even though it's definitely possible, I have to jump through quite a few hoops to make it work for me -- and there are even some parts that straight up don't.

That's ok, because it was supposed to jsut fill the gaps, but I'm finding that I spent so much time with it that I might have been just wasting my time altogether, learning little in the process.

I'm getting a bit disenfranchised and upset so I'm thinking maybe I'm thinking about this wrong -- or maybe I really am going too much against the grain and maybe there are better assets, tutorials, help, etc with other engines.

So could I get some decent discussion going here? I'm not asking for a magical solution, I just wanna be told straight up "X is great for what you want, and here's why." Or even "X is good, Y is also good, but you will benefit from using them by doing Z"

I don't wanna sound like some flop who's just not doing their due diligence, but I've been researching and trying to work with what I've found and it's only frustrating me :/

Be gentle pls.

PS: Tutorials or examples are my kink. Gimme anything you think would help me.

[Cheezmeister]

What do you find frustrating about making a 2D RPG in Unity?

[DCoward]

What do you find frustrating about making a 2D RPG in Unity?

Honestly it's down to how I learn. It seems that everyone is doing projects that vastly differ in some core aspect from what I want to do, and in order for me to learn code, I really need to sit down with it, examine it, and understand the moving parts and what's going on. It's helped me a lot thus far, but I'm having incredibly difficult times getting past moving around on a map with proper collision.

I tried Ork Framework because it claims to fill these gaps and it does, but it's like jamming a square peg in a round hole. It fills MOST of the gaps, but not all of them, and there aren't pieces I know that can fill THOSE gaps, and in the end I haven't progressed in a way I can benefit from.

Ultimately I need something that facilitates what I'm aiming to do because people commonly use it for that purpose, I guess. Something that doesn't send me down a rabbit hole for one aspect only to find I'm still completely lost on a key concept because it's not 1:1.

It's just bizarre because lots of people seem to be doing open RPGs (like walking around and whacking stuff), but the second it becomes older school and needs a new scene for battle and turn-based stuff, it seems no one is doing that and the information I get is increasingly guesses instead of information I can actually use.

I mean yes, I'm newer to Unity, but I just keep thinking I'm missing something super major here... and I'm tired of feeling like an idiot so I'm thinking it might be what I'm using and the support that goes with it (like from the community).

[Polly]

Is there any particular reason why you went with Unity instead of RPG Maker?

[DCoward]

Is there any particular reason why you went with Unity instead of RPG Maker?

Yes, actually.

I had started with it, but I soon realized that what I wanted to do would require a massive amount of scripting to modify what they gave me in the first place, with barely any of its usability remaining.

I had figured it would be less work in the end to just start fresh and learn the necessities on something more ergative.

Maybe that was naive? I'm willing to admit that I was wrong -- but I really did think that defeated the purpose, you know?

[qMopey]

Hi there, it sounds to me like you're suffering from learning quite a bit very quickly but have trouble feeling how much progress your skills have made. Also it is common to have to extend or change engines quite a bit if you want a custom tailored experience. This is when it may make sense to start learning how to extend your programming skills, which can take time!

[DCoward]

Hi there, it sounds to me like you're suffering from learning quite a bit very quickly but have trouble feeling how much progress your skills have made. Also it is common to have to extend or change engines quite a bit if you want a custom tailored experience. This is when it may make sense to start learning how to extend your programming skills, which can take time!

Sounds pretty accurate -- I don't think I'm learning nothing, it's just hard for me to see any progress since it seems like I'm not learning anything immediately applicable, so it's like I'm stuck and don't know HOW to progress.

I guess that's why I'm thinking a switch may be in order...

[Polly]

Maybe that was naive?

No way to tell without knowing what makes your JRPG so different from the usual

[DCoward]

Maybe that was naive?

No way to tell without knowing what makes your JRPG so different from the usual

Fair.

It amounted to battle systems, stats, what the stats were used for, amounts of party combatants, you know, some pretty core things that are automatically coded and not freely changeable or anything like that.

And yes, I do know there were scripts for those things already available, but nothing I found was easily workable to make it fit for what I wanted in the first place, so, I figured it was still pointless to go down that path...

/Shrug?

[qMopey]

Different people learn differently. I'm guessing you like learning by accomplishing a goal related to your project. So if you want to extend your programming skills, just pick something *very* small, but custom. Try to make it. Use whatever tools you like; the point is to learn to make something that you previously couldn't. If you pick something small it's easy to exceed your expectations, which can help you feel very accomplished.

In time you gain enough of these practical skills that you end up just making things instead of learning new things.

[DCoward]

Different people learn differently. I'm guessing you like learning by accomplishing a goal related to your project. So if you want to extend your programming skills, just pick something *very* small, but custom. Try to make it. Use whatever tools you like; the point is to learn to make something that you previously couldn't. If you pick something small it's easy to exceed your expectations, which can help you feel very accomplished.

In time you gain enough of these practical skills that you end up just making things instead of learning new things.

Yeah I guess that's where I actually started to encounter some issues -- and what I meant in one of my earlier replies.

I would have a thing I could sort of do, just not how I need, so I'd work at it, not get it, go to the forums, get insight, and be good.

Only that started to dry up FAST once I got more focused, and I mean... it's fairly important things, but at the same time, people started to draw question marks as an answer instead of being able to guide me when I was almost-but-not-quite-there.

That's where I got lost. I was starting to have half-baked stuff and then, well, here I am, wondering if I'm just not using the most conducive thing for my project.

/Shrug

[voidSkipper]

Different people learn differently. I'm guessing you like learning by accomplishing a goal related to your project. So if you want to extend your programming skills, just pick something *very* small, but custom. Try to make it. Use whatever tools you like; the point is to learn to make something that you previously couldn't. If you pick something small it's easy to exceed your expectations, which can help you feel very accomplished.

In time you gain enough of these practical skills that you end up just making things instead of learning new things.

Yeah I guess that's where I actually started to encounter some issues -- and what I meant in one of my earlier replies.

I would have a thing I could sort of do, just not how I need, so I'd work at it, not get it, go to the forums, get insight, and be good.

Only that started to dry up FAST once I got more focused, and I mean... it's fairly important things, but at the same time, people started to draw question marks as an answer instead of being able to guide me when I was almost-but-not-quite-there.

That's where I got lost. I was starting to have half-baked stuff and then, well, here I am, wondering if I'm just not using the most conducive thing for my project.

/Shrug

If you're still having issue with control structures, variables, and states (eg, you can't take your plan for a battle system and stats and turn it into an algorithm that does what you want it to), then you really need to take a look at both your scope and your goals.

Firstly, your basic programming ability is not currently up to scratch. If your goal is to be able to build these things yourself, you're going to have to work on fundamentals a bit more. This can be within the scope of your own project (ie, prototype a very stripped down version of your battle system, then iterate it gradually to improve it), or it can be outside the scope of your project (practice by making small demos and whatnot to improve your OVERALL ability). Once you get to a certain level of competence, you won't need people to guide you whenever your goal deviates from the available tutorials.

Now, if your goal is to just build a game, and you don't particularly care about your programming level, you need to look at the scope of your project. Is your battle system truly unique? If not, there is probably already an engine out there that handles the majority of it for you. Could you twist RPGMaker to do what you want it to? Is there an open-source RPG engine that you can find and figure out? Probably, unless you're really breaking new ground.

If your project is unique, and you don't have the programming skill to build it yourself, or the inclination to learn, then it doesn't matter what environment you build it in, be it unity or C or visual basic, they're all just programming languages/environments in the end. They hold your hand to different degrees but an algorithm is an algorithm whether you write it in PHP or Brainfuck. You'll need then to either find someone to collaborate with you for the technical side of things, or modify the scope of your project to fit your abilities or available tools.

[sonder]

Sorry, for some reason it's the unspoken creed of programmers to question other people's intelligence by default.

I believe that despite the new 2D features, Unity is overkill for most 2D projects, especially if you're green.  

If you feel that RPG Maker doesn't cut it, I would recommend XNA, Love2D, Superpowers, Fusion, Construct 1 or 2, Flash, Impact.js, or Phaser.js.  I can personally vouch for Impact, though it's $99 it's worth every penny to be guaranteed a complete package.  The others, except Fusion, Flash and Construct 2, are free.

[voidSkipper]

Flash is free if you don't want the ide. Download the flex sdk from the Adobe website and compile with flashdevelop.

[sonder]

Flash is free if you don't want the ide. Download the flex sdk from the Adobe website and compile with flashdevelop.

I forgot about that.  Been a while since I've done anything with Flash :/

[DCoward]

Different people learn differently. I'm guessing you like learning by accomplishing a goal related to your project. So if you want to extend your programming skills, just pick something *very* small, but custom. Try to make it. Use whatever tools you like; the point is to learn to make something that you previously couldn't. If you pick something small it's easy to exceed your expectations, which can help you feel very accomplished.

In time you gain enough of these practical skills that you end up just making things instead of learning new things.

Yeah I guess that's where I actually started to encounter some issues -- and what I meant in one of my earlier replies.

I would have a thing I could sort of do, just not how I need, so I'd work at it, not get it, go to the forums, get insight, and be good.

Only that started to dry up FAST once I got more focused, and I mean... it's fairly important things, but at the same time, people started to draw question marks as an answer instead of being able to guide me when I was almost-but-not-quite-there.

That's where I got lost. I was starting to have half-baked stuff and then, well, here I am, wondering if I'm just not using the most conducive thing for my project.

/Shrug

If you're still having issue with control structures, variables, and states (eg, you can't take your plan for a battle system and stats and turn it into an algorithm that does what you want it to), then you really need to take a look at both your scope and your goals.

Firstly, your basic programming ability is not currently up to scratch. If your goal is to be able to build these things yourself, you're going to have to work on fundamentals a bit more. This can be within the scope of your own project (ie, prototype a very stripped down version of your battle system, then iterate it gradually to improve it), or it can be outside the scope of your project (practice by making small demos and whatnot to improve your OVERALL ability). Once you get to a certain level of competence, you won't need people to guide you whenever your goal deviates from the available tutorials.

Now, if your goal is to just build a game, and you don't particularly care about your programming level, you need to look at the scope of your project. Is your battle system truly unique? If not, there is probably already an engine out there that handles the majority of it for you. Could you twist RPGMaker to do what you want it to? Is there an open-source RPG engine that you can find and figure out? Probably, unless you're really breaking new ground.

If your project is unique, and you don't have the programming skill to build it yourself, or the inclination to learn, then it doesn't matter what environment you build it in, be it unity or C or visual basic, they're all just programming languages/environments in the end. They hold your hand to different degrees but an algorithm is an algorithm whether you write it in PHP or Brainfuck. You'll need then to either find someone to collaborate with you for the technical side of things, or modify the scope of your project to fit your abilities or available tools.

Excellent stuff.

I appreciate the fair response.

Don't get me wrong, I know I'm already heading towards the deep end of the pool, I guess the reason it's frustrating and strange to me is the stuff leading up to this -- I get it, and the stuff that isn't quite related, I understand it. At the risk of sounding cliche and/or like a broken record, I do actually think it's down to how I learn, but this has really made me think about more of what makes up the individual parts.

I mean look, I know I'm a scrub, and thousands of people have their *great idea* and their *rpg everyone will love* and I really REALLY want to avoid that. It's just a project I love and want to make, and I take remarkably less than it seems (given why people subscribe it in the first place) I'm supposed to from the projects like Pong and what not.

It seems like a lot of the applicable knowledge for what I need is more specialized and not something you often encounter (Please, PLEASE tell me if I'm wrong about this!) -- that's why I figured I'd dive in and just learn as I needed. That's likely NOT a great idea, I realize, but it really, honestly seemed like I was getting nothing from the beginning level -- even intermediate stuff.

Like with the 2D roguelike that Unity teaches, it was actually quite simple for me to understand, and while I can't just jetison a stream of code from my head to recreate it, I DO understand the individual parts of it, yet still I just couldn't wrap my head around some of the things that differed fundamentally from what they showed, and what I aimed to do.

Perhaps that's what it was -- I just didn't put two and two together when it came time to learn the individual parts. Hmm. (I'm typing out loud now, so I digress)


You know, at the risk of sounding helpless some more, would anyone be so kind as to say what fundamentals are probably the best to start with? And by that I mean yeah, ok, I know how to get a map in and move around. I collide fine, all that, but when you start talking about turn-based ANYTHING I start to really not know what all gets *required* for that, because best I've seen is things about MAYBE arrays, and MAYBE x, MAYBE y.

From people who use Unity, what kinda stuff is like "Yeah, learn this first, then see how you're doing".

I really appreciate the help thus far, you're all very understanding and awesome (I was afraid I'd get the more vicious side, tbh).

[DCoward]

Sorry, for some reason it's the unspoken creed of programmers to question other people's intelligence by default.

I believe that despite the new 2D features, Unity is overkill for most 2D projects, especially if you're green.  

If you feel that RPG Maker doesn't cut it, I would recommend XNA, Love2D, Superpowers, Fusion, Construct 1 or 2, Flash, Impact.js, or Phaser.js.  I can personally vouch for Impact, though it's $99 it's worth every penny to be guaranteed a complete package.  The others, except Fusion, Flash and Construct 2, are free.

See, I can kinda get that, about being overkill, but at the same time, I think there are some nice beneficial aspects about having more 3D integrated ability as well (mostly for graphical things, really, but that's not necessary by far).

Now, I have gone on a kick of looking into other frameworks and stuff. GameMaker seems an obvious choice, but I'm very skeptical of its versatility with a few things, and I'm still looking into it... I'll see, but thank you very much for the recommendations/options, I'll be sure to hit those up.

Again, thanks to everyone who has been helpful with me!

[sonder]

See, I can kinda get that, about being overkill, but at the same time, I think there are some nice beneficial aspects about having more 3D integrated ability as well (mostly for graphical things, really, but that's not necessary by far).

Now, I have gone on a kick of looking into other frameworks and stuff. GameMaker seems an obvious choice, but I'm very skeptical of its versatility with a few things, and I'm still looking into it... I'll see, but thank you very much for the recommendations/options, I'll be sure to hit those up.

Again, thanks to everyone who has been helpful with me!

From my experience, Game Maker falls short in many areas, with most people producing decent work only after years of experience, now reluctant to ever switch because they are "just used to it".  You're better off in the long run starting off with an engine that uses a real programming language, (Actionscript included,) or something that scales better, like Construct.

[voidSkipper]

You know, at the risk of sounding helpless some more, would anyone be so kind as to say what fundamentals are probably the best to start with? And by that I mean yeah, ok, I know how to get a map in and move around. I collide fine, all that, but when you start talking about turn-based ANYTHING I start to really not know what all gets *required* for that, because best I've seen is things about MAYBE arrays, and MAYBE x, MAYBE y.

Fundamentals include:
-understanding the base datatypes that are available to you - so usually, a whole bunch of different kinds of numbers (integers, unsigned integers, floats, etc), booleans, strings, characters, arrays, etc.
-knowing how control structures (if, else, switch, while, for, try/catch, etc) will perform not just vaguely, but intimately
-understanding variable scope (this will be different from language to language)
-if applicable, understanding object oriented programming concepts (classes, inheritance, overrides)
-having a strong working knowledge of logical operators (<=, !=, ==, etc) and if applicable, bitwise operands (>>, <<, ~, !, etc)

Once you have a good understanding of all of the above, it shouldn't really be an issue of "I know how to make a 'walking on a map' program but I don't know how to make a 'battle system' program."

You decide what you want to make, plan it out (if necessary, using the all-powerful flow chart - seriously, flowcharts are great for algorithm design), and then program it.

[quantumpotato]

I agree with above that Unity is overkill for 2d projects. I've been coding in HTML5 + Javascript because I made an easy to understand 2D entity-based engine with explicit drawing code (instead of magically rendering that Unity does).

https://howtomakeanrpg.com/ seems right up your alley. It does exactly what it says with fantastic detail. Worth it!