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gimymblert
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« on: July 08, 2016, 10:43:48 PM »

I have been working on a simple plot for my short game for a while.
Despite wanting something simple there was some complication due to the context in which I'm developing it, that tooks me plenty times to solve, I have hit many walls that only I could answer due to the specificity of that context. Another part is that, while the scenario was design as entertainment first, the constrain made it really hard to just invent stuff to get out a sticky situation.

I kind of solve those point by now, but I have still some aspects that need ironing out.

The main idea of the game is that it is a symbolical coming out of age story that takes place in a myth like island. The setting is a mythical colonial era with plantation (the empire) and maroon (the rebel) and there is demon toss into that to mix tings up.

- The main character is an orphan girl who makes friends with girls flying away from servitude. After getting to know each other, they makes a plan, to create their own clans.
- To realize their plan they need to collect necessary objects at other clans, but with each object collected the main character lose one friend who choose to stay into that place, until she is alone.
- After she lost all her friends, a sorceress came to the clans they reside and tried to convince the clans to let her rules them. The clans refuse and the sorceress cursed all of them.
- When she learn her friends being cursed, the main character decide to save them. She enter the dimension where the places where cursed into, it happen she is immune and she free the people from the curse.
- United with her friends, the clans decide to unite under her clan she made with her friend.
- Going to the lair of the sorceress and defeated her minion, she learn she was souls of the daughter of the sorceress, that's why she was immune to the curse, she discover her body sleeping but to reclaim it she must defeat the sorceress.
- Defeating the sorceress she learn about her story and forgive her, she receive the blessing of the sorceress and reclaim her body.

The main emerging theme is that each clans represent virtues, the character collect virtues and grow up into an adult, with all teh virtue she is able to confront the dark side of these virtues. But on the road to these virtue she met with the corresponding weakness of these virtues. These weakness allow to introduce how the virtue solve the problem weakness introduce. Each weakness is represented as a corresponding colonial plantation opposed to each maroon clan that represent one virtue. The constrain being that it is inspire by caraibean culture, so it must be true to the imagery of that culture.

My problem is to turn this structure into gameplay, most notably "lock and key". The structure is basically a hub (resting place of the girls) and spoke (clans). We can can go to any clan in any order but we know at least one girl is mandatory of that clans (will stay there, therefore will be always present in the path to the clans).

I have identify 6 abstract narrative forms of lock:
- misdirection (ie knowing where to go or what to do to progress,)
- "pivot" (elements that need to move to register progress)
- friction (speed of traversing the path to the goal)
- path length
- test and challenge
- doors (need keys)


Quote
Maroon's clan

Poto-Mitan (yellow color)
Poto-mitan are associated to earth, they think that the spirit must dominate the body, they practice a moral ascese who allow them by sheer will to increase their physiocal forces, hence their creole expression « c'est l'espri ko qui met ko » (the spirit is the master of the body). For her, people are like top, a rotating top, «djok», stay straight despite external forces who try to destabilise it, despite only having a small point of support. While the top without movement, «molpi», is unable to have a stable position and is influenced by external forces. The rotation represent will that maintain her stability, the stronger the rotation the more stable and resistant to external forces the top is.

They are recognizable to their straight inflexible posture, and sometimes they have enormous basket on their head, basket that would crush anyone you can't keep their posture. They can be often met close to banana fields which they consume their fruit for their energy value, they can also be met close to sugar cane fields or carrying on their head basket of charcoal. They also practice pottery.

Associate to the plantation of the priest who want to live as if he has no responsibility, weakness about cowardice, alcohol and denial




Matador
Matador are tied to fire, they think mastery of the self is important to not get in the illusion of appearance, appearance is a tools to navigate the harsh social world of the city. That's why they observe a strict rule of conduct that give them mastery of the environment and allowed them to survive.

Those who forget themselves and the social stake for pleasure, the siwotèz, and give too much importance to show off, expose themselves to gossiping and jealously and ending burned. When appearance dominate a person, they lost their identity. That's why matadors use a fan to remind, when they fall in tricky situations they fan themselves to keep their cool and not get caught in the heat of a situation.

Matadors live in city and burg, animating party and mundane reception. They are master of appearance, of conversation and culture. They cultivate artistic refinement in diverse domain like clothing, make up, dancing, music, gastronomy, entertainment and have a great mastery of the social game. They are the guardians of secrets and know everything that happen thanks to their network of informant, the makrel network. They call non initiate «agricol», sometimes dearly but most of the time with a certain arrogance, to mark the difference between their sophisticate but ruthless world  and the supposed simplicity of retired life in the field.

Associate to the plantation of the mulatto who want to live as if he was untouchable, weakness about opportunism, greed and envy




Kapistrel
Kapistrel are linked to water, they think that the mastery of their destiny come from freedom of the mind and therefore come from mastery of symbolic representation. They observe that if slaves fear the sight of chains masters rejoice, for one it's the symbol of his enslavement and the power imposed on them, for the other it is the power he imposed toward other. Chain became the fundamental of the representation and power on the world, that's why they use the expression «everything is articulation», the world is a big chain where things are articulation.

But if representation can enslave the mind they don't forget about the link to reality. Things are linked by degree of separation, articulations, it's what they need to understand to have mastery on the world. They have adopted principle from stoicism, that there is things depend on us and things that don't, however they added their own twist about how things that don't depend on you may depend on things that depend on you.

Understanding that things are just links, on which we can act, allow them to escape fatality and to constantly looking for the weak link to exploit in a situation. That's how they repurpose the chain and make it their the instrument and symbol of their power. They have then develop a martial art where they submit the chain as an extension of themselves and weapon against the world, which they express with the battlecry «my chain, unchain and chain up ».

They can be met close to plantation they pillage in impunity by mixing with the slave, they can also be met close to river, swamp (mangrove) and beach. Among the clans they have the less fear for slave hunter and their guns, they go as far as taunting them sometimes.

Associate to the big plantation of the rich settler who want to live as if he was god, weakness about oppression, submission and cruelty




Katrin Pitjan
They are affiliated to wind, they give a lot of value to notion such as rationing out and the passage of time, value learned by cultivating plants in their creole garden, constrained by the cycle of harvest. They observed that nature is made of immutable cycle to which you need to submit yourself. Time impose the cycle of life to everyone, there is a time for each things. They observe that things are limited, which justify a just use of thing without waste but also without deprivation which would weaken the cycle on which things depend for balance.

This vision of the world is visible in their use of the bow and arrow. They limit themselves to use only a recurring fixed amount of arrow, arguing it's necessary for syncing the mind and body with the environment. A random number would allow intuition to anticipate and would distract with the worries of constant checking. A just number optimize and sync intuitively attitudes toward even complex situations. They believe  that each arrow pulled must have its reason, hence their expression «all hurt, last kill», also a reference to the passage of time to which they identify themselves.

Associate to the small plantation of the freed black who want to live as if he was rich, weakness about waste, gluttony and mismanagement




Katchopine
They are connected to night, it's a maroon clan that gather randomly people of diverse origin, generally full of revenge thoughts, hate and contempt. Some are sorceress attracted by the prestige of Lady Keleman and came to propose their services. There is no real unity if it wasn't the reverence they have for Keleman who appreciate greatly the attention she get.

My problem is come out with scenes with enough narrative interest but also a reason to lock the progress toward the clan thematically, in a way that's not avoidable.

I wonder if I could get help to brainstorm solutions because I'm stuck for a while (possibly due to exhaustion lol).


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Capntastic
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« Reply #1 on: July 08, 2016, 11:48:57 PM »

I've seen you post about this project before and skimming again now the plot's core concepts seemed to be the sort of "well we gotta have these different elements and then each element has a group and then each group has a dungeon" sort of arrangement, which is very predictable and sort of turns the plot into a shopping list more than a story that happens because of a logical series of events, if that makes sense. 

Some of the terms might need refinement; I'm not really sure exactly what you mean by clans and virtues.  How do players interact with these things, how are they symbolized? 

Why is the sorceress trying to rule the clans that are supposedly newly created by orphans?  How did the clans become a powerful thing that the sorceress wants to control?

Why are there different dimensions?  How does that work, within the setting?

Why wouldn't the sorceress tell her she's her mother?  Why is she acting against her daughter?  Why is her body locked in the sorceress's dimension?

Beyond the scope of all of these rough spots that I feel ought'a be smoothed out (these would be the questions I'd ask if I were playing through the game or reading through the story), I wanna know what the world is like outside of the clans and the sorceress and the elements and all of that.  If the sorceress and the orphans and the clans are the only real characters doing things, then the world will seem very empty and simple (which might be a good thing, if handled right?).

Personally, I really dislike "This is the FIRE area where you will fight FIERY people and pick up a FIRE element weapon and fight a FIRE boss and learn about the FIERY virtue of FIERY PASSION" thematics.  It's painting by numbers and pretty much every person who has played videogames or read a book has seen it before.  Some of the clans seem to do better though, since the "elemental themes" are approached via different ethnicities (which can be handled in an interesting way)

This post is sort of a ramble but I'm just calling out the rough edges as I see 'em.
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« Reply #2 on: July 09, 2016, 06:02:37 AM »

Impassible? Impossible? I know this concept of a 'moot'. For example, a moot point is open to discussion but unlikely to be solved.

A moot is a gathering to solve problems, like a tribal meeting. But instead a clan?

A moot, such as in King of Dragon Pass, discusses politics, and comes to (sometimes absurd) decisions about what to do for people.

Often enough people bring very selfish politics, absurd debate tactics, and grudges.

The natural conclusion is to wheel, deal, and lie in order to make shit happen.

I guess it doesn't really fit with an orphan girl though.


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« Reply #3 on: July 09, 2016, 06:58:27 AM »

So the main character involves herself with each clan in order to overcome the empire that the sorceress is conspiring with? Am I getting this right?

A plot for a game is what I call The Thematic Motivator:

What is the driving "force" that binds all the clans together and therefore brings forth the thrust of why the player should be interested in their plight? The sorceress? Is she the catalyst for all things in place of the game's happenstances (and therefor the player's involvement)?

The thematic motivator is what would technically be the last boss. That is the tradition in the way games have been made in the past. Super Metroid did away with the last boss simply being an abstraction for difficulty. Mother Brain was the thematic motivator for everything in that game. All events locked in by the grand scheme of her intentions.

Mother Brain is also the symbol of the designer's reasoning for everything placed in the whole game. Just as an example.
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gimymblert
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« Reply #4 on: July 09, 2016, 09:53:38 AM »

- snip

A lot of question are answered in the 30 pages bible document I obviously can't dump on the thread now, so I selected the main point that are relevant to my pont.

It's effectively NOT a lively world, as it effectively mimic the type of structure seen in tales and legend and it has this logic, which is the main concept, for many good cultural reason targeted at the main audience. To be frank a lively word would have been way easier to write lol, the general rule is make something convenient happen and retcon with the rest.

Anyway I tried provide enough information for the problem at end, I was wondering what would happen. I'm merely trying something to accelerate the process, I have try many stuff before, I'm still sad at how slow the process is on this story who was supposed to be simple Sad .

The main question is about gameplay between the hub and clans, how to define narrative blockers that would match symbolically those path.

here are the full current docs anyway
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/24530447/MADRAS/madras%20story%20timeline.pdf
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/24530447/MADRAS/Concept%20pitch%20Madras%20extension%2000.pdf
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gimymblert
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« Reply #5 on: July 09, 2016, 10:00:48 AM »

It's worth noting all element in the story are actually references and call back to Caribbean culture and its dynamics (mostly Martinique). The name and logic of the clans are based on well known expressions here, Kelemen is a well known character of a tales, etc ... It's not random at all.

I realize that for an outside public might miss the reference and the subtle narrative they create, as they cannot get the reference and the associated affect, I tried to diminish this by using overall structure and pattern that can recognize, so it is a bit accessible.
« Last Edit: July 09, 2016, 10:08:02 AM by gimymblert » Logged

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« Reply #6 on: July 09, 2016, 01:35:31 PM »

I'm not gonna read a 50 page PDF just to try to help you more. 

You asked for help.  I took the time to read your post, and then took the time to respond thoughtfully to what you posted.  It's fine if what I posted isn't particularly helpful to you but brushing aside my entire response and then openly moping about how hard of a time you're having guarantees I have no desire to want to help further. 
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gimymblert
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« Reply #7 on: July 09, 2016, 02:27:44 PM »

To be frank I didn't understand your former answer and I'm still perplex at the second.

1. I provided what I thought was enough context for the problem.
2. You wanted more context.
3. I provided more context.
4. you don't want more context
5. I don't know anymore what do you want.

My "moping" was extra useless context as you disliking the structure, I'm confused at how both are extra relevant to the problem.

I'm not asking if the universe is good or not, I know it's not sophisticate, it's on purpose there is a reason.

The problem is really just a very rot technical question, how can I construct scene that allow to block progress in a way that stay thematically relevant.

That's hi level overview, details don't matter. The idea is that once the structure is in place, any poetry can be wax to make it "lively". But a broken structure won't be save by waxing poetry just yet, it will only lead to plot holes. The summary really is just extra context to gave an idea of the shape of the story, it really was't super needed.

So basically for what's important, you have:
- characters going to place
- meeting obstacles
- it has a moral.

I gave the concept of each clan, that give an idea of the moral of each path. I gave the concept of the opposition. It should be enough to brainstorm obstacle.

For example:
One loose idea I had is that on the path of the poto mitan:
- character traveling the path
- character find a priest going back to his plantation
- he provoke a problem due to being drunk that block the path
- ask for help for something he could have done himself, refer to the reward god will offer them if they help him
- trap the character to sell them for more alcohol, ramble they don't have a souls anyway
- character saved by a maroon of the clan
- character arrive at the clan following the maroon

But that's loose anyway, I'm not sure there is enough details for example how the maroon save them and how that relate to the moral of the clan.

Now I don't expect something as details, but basically element as small as each line that I can combine and think hard about.
For example:
- how do we show each weakness through a scene (the drunk driving)
- what kind of device can we use to block progress (the accident)
- how do we show the moral of each clan (no idea yet)
- how do we build situation that ave enough interactivity (helping the priest)
- how do we show these element with action (the accident)
- how do we make them so there is affordances for spectacles (chain reaction cause by the accident potentially)
- etc ...

It's about very basic writing.
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« Reply #8 on: July 09, 2016, 02:33:39 PM »


2. You wanted more context.
3. I provided more context.
4. you don't want more context


You linked to a 50 page PDF and expected me to read them rather than answer the questions yourself.  If you want help, it's better to make it easier for the people trying to help, rather than harder.  Not sure what's so confusing about that.
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gimymblert
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« Reply #9 on: July 09, 2016, 02:54:00 PM »

Because you ask question that can't be answered any other ways!

Quote
Some of the terms might need refinement; I'm not really sure exactly what you mean by clans and virtues.  How do players interact with these things, how are they symbolized? 

Why is the sorceress trying to rule the clans that are supposedly newly created by orphans?  How did the clans become a powerful thing that the sorceress wants to control?

Why are there different dimensions?  How does that work, within the setting?

Why wouldn't the sorceress tell her she's her mother?  Why is she acting against her daughter?  Why is her body locked in the sorceress's dimension?

 I wanna know what the world is like outside of the clans and the sorceress and the elements and all of that.

There is really nothing more, nothing less  Shrug so I don't know how to answer that.
that's why I leave out the demon for example (not relevant now). That's why I provided summary of each clans.

I don't know what to add more:
- The clan are defined in the original post, "virtue" is the moral that define them. That's what the character learn by looking to them. The symbol are contain in the description too!
- the sorceress want to rule them, it's in the OP, basically she want to be the ruler, to understand why there is an extensive backstory that need more lines, as it's a jumble of causes.
- Dimension is more of a plot device to close off the clan to constitute gameplay boundaries, there is reason but I need to explain the demon, which would take a while to parse all references.
- Again backstory (the sorceress didn't know), link to demon and the sorceress backstory and why she want to rule.
- the world is basically just plantation (ie colonizer, represent the empire), demon and maroon (hidden village of slave who escaped), that's basically what the caraibean was, it's the entire society dynamics. There is extra backstory about the empire but it's out of the scope of this story (maybe in a sequel they rebel for good, which will be funny to do as it can't end like typical empire vs rebel story because "cultural reference").

There is no way I can explain this without giving away the 30p I wrote. Also the document is itemized, you can jump and skip around, it's also alternating french and english pages, so it's double the amount. There is also a lot of white space to keep paging per topic.

BUT anyway, I was just providing that as an OPTION. I didn't mandate that you read it, but there is no other way to clearly answer those questions if you mean it IMHO, that's why I made a lengthy OP while aggressively summarizing the elements.

The doc themselves are only overview, they are already summary.
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« Reply #10 on: July 09, 2016, 03:17:39 PM »

I'll try to break this down further I guess:

"Why is the sorceress trying to rule the clans that are supposedly newly created by orphans?  How did the clans become a powerful thing that the sorceress wants to control?"

If these clans were created by little girls that are orphans and seemingly have no resources, how are they "clans"? 

Where are these other people coming from? 

What makes the little girls special that these clans did not exist until they decided to make them? 

Why are they each individually making their own clan rather than working together?

If these clans and the little girls and the elements and virtues are central to the entire world of the game, they need to make sense and people need to understand the relationships between them.

As it stands, from what you posted and what I skimmed of the PDF (yeah I skimmed it!) it's like

"Little girls decide to make clans" -->  (something happens?) -->  "There's clans with different cultural styles"

Like the clans just emerged from thin air.  This can make sense if the little girls have like, magical powers to basically form civilizations from scratch, or some sort of beacon or mechanism to make people that would fit the culture show up (from other colonies/escaped slaves/whatever).  But you gotta have that step where they actually "make the clans", or at least explain it.  Because otherwise it goes from "four little girls" to "oh yeah these four little girls are each in charge of a civilization" with no explanation.  If it's that easy, why does the Sorceress even care, etc etc.

Hopefully that one question makes more sense?
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« Reply #11 on: July 09, 2016, 03:21:47 PM »

Like, even if you're going on a creation myth sort of idea there still has to be a set of internal logic to it.

It's not like "The Sea King decided to make a sea city and then there was a sea city" you gotta have like "The Sea King sent a tidal wave onto the land and it brought a mountain back to the bottom of the sea and the fish carved it into a city".

Those are the cool things that make neat pictures in people's memories, and make the world interesting.

"Little girls decide to ~make clans~" and then there are "clans" somehow is very...empty, and confusing.
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gimymblert
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« Reply #12 on: July 09, 2016, 03:40:40 PM »

Okay I understand better now  Durr...?

- There is an island with multiple maroon clans
- girl living in the forest (with a mentor but I leave that out) met other (4) girls escaping from plantations.
- girls became friend, decide to make their own clan together (one more on the island).
- to create the clans they need some basic stuff (tools, food, clothes, stuffs) that (4) other clans specialize in.
- going to the clan they meet with narrative obstacles they will overcome in some way.
- to obtain the object they seek to the clan, they will have to paid it with fulfulling a task for the clan (not mention in the OP).
- one girl will be so pleased by the experience, she will stay at the clan.
- in the end the girl has all objects but lost all her friends to the clans.
- second part kicked in, there was a forewarning as the girl met member of the sorceress clan in the first part (not mention)

Now we can blame my english (I did reread myself but how could have miss that?), hoping this is more clear.
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« Reply #13 on: July 18, 2016, 02:37:18 PM »

You said you were having trouble writing, quickly, right?
https://imgur.com/JrRdSmc
I guess these rules are used by a popular story maker in a production environment.
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« Reply #14 on: August 02, 2016, 01:16:06 AM »

Like, even if you're going on a creation myth sort of idea there still has to be a set of internal logic to it.

It's not like "The Sea King decided to make a sea city and then there was a sea city"
why not, that's exactly how the old testament goes lol
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« Reply #15 on: August 02, 2016, 07:02:59 AM »

Like, even if you're going on a creation myth sort of idea there still has to be a set of internal logic to it.

It's not like "The Sea King decided to make a sea city and then there was a sea city"
why not, that's exactly how the old testament goes lol

Old Testament had quite a few more steps and themes built right in.
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gimymblert
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« Reply #16 on: August 02, 2016, 10:50:24 AM »

I need to reboot it making it more clear and concise, don't I?

I'm currently struggling with the katrin pitjan, locking characters into the forest with a stake that represent not being economical.
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« Reply #17 on: August 07, 2016, 11:08:15 AM »

Okay I understand better now  Durr...?

- There is an island with multiple maroon clans
- girl living in the forest (with a mentor but I leave that out) met other (4) girls escaping from plantations.
- girls became friend, decide to make their own clan together (one more on the island).
- to create the clans they need some basic stuff (tools, food, clothes, stuffs) that (4) other clans specialize in.
- going to the clan they meet with narrative obstacles they will overcome in some way.
- to obtain the object they seek to the clan, they will have to paid it with fulfulling a task for the clan (not mention in the OP).
- one girl will be so pleased by the experience, she will stay at the clan.
- in the end the girl has all objects but lost all her friends to the clans.
- second part kicked in, there was a forewarning as the girl met member of the sorceress clan in the first part (not mention)

Now we can blame my english (I did reread myself but how could have miss that?), hoping this is more clear.


From the breakdown you give above and in the first post I get the clinical analysis of it all but it doesn't really do much to explain any kind of emotional connectivity or even why I should give a damn. On the other hand, as Capntastic said I don't want to (and shouldn't have to) read a novel to get it.

It's like telling someone they need to read the mountain of Elder Scrolls lore before they are really ready to play or understand Skyrim. If what you got is good a short summary is all you really need to put the emotional stakes on the table and sink a hook in (think about the short summaries given on the back of a book).

The emotion is not rooted in the events, and it is not even rooted in the characters themselves, it is rooted in the relationships the interconnected stakes. When you have that sense of interconnection, tugging at one thread is like pulling on the whole web and the drama carries more impact (something Game of Thrones does well, for example).

What I posted here might help. My brain loves to simplify complex things and for me it is thus far the easiest method I find to approaching and creating connectivity in a practical way.
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« Reply #18 on: August 07, 2016, 12:09:11 PM »

Because my problem isn't about the emotional connection, I'll handle that properly in the writing. I'm looking at a practical problem (basically how to lock PRAGMATICALLY character is sub arc). In fact the context was just that context, but it ended up distraction from the problem. My problem is isolated from the main plot. I did share it to get you the emotional connection but an overview of where the problem come from.

TL;DR:

I don't care about emotion here  Cry
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« Reply #19 on: August 07, 2016, 12:44:54 PM »

I had to go back and reread it all, it was a bit confusing (especially with it being "Help with gameplay plot!" in the writing forums but seems to have a lot more to do with design). Rather than suggestions, since I am still a bit sketchy on things (and also high on muscle relaxers), so I'll just throw out questions and ideas. If they don't apply or don't really work for what you have in mind, just disregard them.





Does the order in which we leave a girl with a clan matter? For example, if we bring girl (A) to clan (A) before we bring girl (B) to clan (B)? Does the order change the story at all? Is each girl set to a specific clan or do we have some say in which girl goes to which clan?

     *Whichever way you go with it, start us of with some obvious indicator of what we should be doing. If the girls are set to
     a clan hint at it through their personalities. If one girl is hunting oriented (for example) and is set for a hunter clan   
     then maybe show she is adventurous, survival-oriented (which might contrast with another girl who is more calculating and
     building-oriented).


Does each girl present any kind of unique friction to the path? For example, do they have a certain limitation that makes getting them to the right clan harder or do they require some tools (that only they can use) to get there?

     *Rather than treating any one clan as a single place perhaps they encompass whole areas (like how Hyrule branches   
     off into all these different areas with their own branches). The girls gain tools progressively from the clans so
     maybe one girl gets climbing tools from one clan that aid in completing tasks for another, leading to the player
     circuiting the clans completing tasks and progressively gaining favor. Think of it like Zelda, but rather than getting
     one tool from one dungeon we have 4 tool sources and they give out tools that allow us to progress a little more in
     another dungeon (to reach that dungeon's next tool). This would also ease balancing path length, since you could dole
     out progress to the player in manageable chunks. Rather than having to fret over the whole path length you could focus
     on the space between each new tool/hurdle gate, and then decide how many gates there are to get the overall length of
     the path.


Is their wanting to be part of the clan immediate or something we, as the player, need to develop? For example, are their tasks we need to do that deepen the girl's interest in the clan?

    *In this manner, maybe with each tool gained story-wise we also see the girl become more connected to the clan. Perhaps one
    clan excels at hunting (for example) and with each new hunting-oriented too the girl gains we see she shows more interest     
    and personal stake in the clan. In this manner, the relationship grows with the object acquisition and player progress,
    creating an overall stronger momentum in the game.





I don't want to get too crazy with the Cheez Wiz and throw out a bunch of unhelpful shit (like I said, I am still kind of sketchy on exactly what you are asking for) but if any of this is helpful I can toss out more.
« Last Edit: August 07, 2016, 12:55:22 PM by JWK5 » Logged

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