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TIGSource ForumsPlayerGamesAnother Metroid 2 Remake released
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Author Topic: Another Metroid 2 Remake released  (Read 5880 times)
Alessio
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« Reply #100 on: August 20, 2016, 03:50:28 AM »

I'm not gonna replying anymore to people who call me "idiot" directly and if you really think that, keep it for yourself, and if you really can't wait to insult me, send me a PM, thanks: if we want drama there are more private ways. I'm trying to reasoning but the fact that people get personal with me for a few specific words i've written that don't have much to do with the topic is the proof that there is no healthy discussion.

Alessio, when you tell people to "Stop telling people what they should do!" aren't you telling people what they should do (i.e. telling them what they should not be telling others)? You're talking about who has the right to say what or criticize what, but where did you get that right to decide whether they have that right or not? Why is what a company does nobody's business, but how people react to what they do your business? I recommend toning things down a bit.
this argument can't be more invalid.
You didn't read correctly what i've written because, if you did, you wouldn't write that. Please don't stop on few specific words without even pretending to understand what i'm writing. Read again: it's not "Stop telling people what they should do!", not "Stop syndacating over my choices!". That's is a little different, isn't it? One is, if i want to make a weird example, "I hate My Little Pony Stop watching that!", the other is more like "I'm watching My Little Pony mind your own business". Anyway, this is totally irrelevant to the main discussion.

And, figure, we're talking about Nintendo's lack of progressiveness because he didn't let a fan distributing an enhanced remake of Nintendo's game you can buy right now... yet when they make a new home console they're always trying to surprise as many people as possible. the fact that a vocal minority didn't like "Federation Forces" doesn't give them the "moral" right to pirate Nintendo's stuff, releasing a free fan-remake of something you can buy (even though i believe DM64 didn't do it in total bad faith, he's in the wrong here) or opening a petition for cancelling the 3DS game... even if, in theory, you can legally open petition but seriously, play the game first and consider that other people may enjoy it and if you take it down (read: you don't have that power) you take away a thing from people who would have wanted to try that product. And this isn't democracy.
Ah, by the way, this doesn't even give you the moral right to offend people who otherwise think that Nintendo's actions aren't as bad as some people want others to belive.

After writing this, we were here to talk about the fan-game and also it's "legality status", maybe. But some of you went personal because i agree with Nintendo's actions. I wanted a healty discussion but i'll stop here until everything calms down before a moderators goes at me and tells me to stop it, although i can't see through my post where i ever got personal to and didn't insult anybody directly. Because i didn't offend anybody here, i just write something that some people apparently don't like.

You can't even write an opinion "chronicles of a fan-remake" that is different about the from what the rest of the Internet thinks. It seems that people want freedom of speech as long as other people agree with them.

If drama was created, sorry, it was not my intention.
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« Reply #101 on: August 20, 2016, 05:46:26 AM »

This is no opinion matter, this is a discussion on very tangible legal issues. Nintendo was never obligated to "protect their IP" because there are measures they could have taken to endorse the fan game without actually risking their IP. Endorsing the remake would not have caused them to somehow "lose the Metroid franchise" or something like that. The only disadvantage they would have gotten from endorsing this fan game would be that their stock market value would have gone down, so to me the motive to take down AM2R is pretty clear and petty. They took it down because of greed, because they couldn't sacrifice a bit of their monetary value to let a fan game live, which ironically in this case, gave them a bunch of negative PR.

If you want proof that this is a thing that could have happened, just look at what Valve is doing with their modding community, hiring indie devs and endorsing a remake of one of their most beloved games. Nintendo could have chosen to do this, but didn't. That's why all the people in this thread are crying "Fuck Nintendo".

[/rant]
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« Reply #102 on: August 20, 2016, 08:20:44 AM »

I think Alessio is providing a well-articulated discourse about this issue. I appreciate that he's going against the current here and providing the other side of the medal so to speak, which can in turn lead to interesting conversations about fangames. I don't agree with him about a lot of things but to call him an "idiot" for holding than different perceptions and opinions than the mob is unfair and comes across as being a bit short on the argumentative side (the same could be said about name calling in general). Perhaps the moderators already taking part in this conversation could, if anything, discourage this kind of puerile input if anything, considering that they are, well, moderators.

For those who are wondering, the forum rules can be found here: https://forums.tigsource.com/index.php?topic=35037.0 and list, among other things:

Quote
1. General nastiness or rudeness is frowned upon.

I don't mean to play the role of a mod here but since I'm under the impression no one is filling this role here (which I might be mistaken about), I figured someone should say something be about rude comments about people having different opinions. I don't think that's the kind of atmosphere we want to have around here as it leads to more hostility and discourages people who hold different opinions of participating.

Thank you for reading.


 

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« Reply #103 on: August 20, 2016, 08:35:26 AM »

seriously rj, the namecalling is a bit much.
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rj
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« Reply #104 on: August 20, 2016, 08:42:48 AM »

yeah no that's fair. sorry about that; not my best feature. insults have no place in a good faith argument.
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« Reply #105 on: August 20, 2016, 12:26:23 PM »

Quote
this argument can't be more invalid.
You didn't read correctly what i've written because, if you did, you wouldn't write that. Please don't stop on few specific words without even pretending to understand what i'm writing. Read again: it's not "Stop telling people what they should do!", not "Stop syndacating over my choices!". That's is a little different, isn't it? One is, if i want to make a weird example, "I hate My Little Pony Stop watching that!", the other is more like "I'm watching My Little Pony mind your own business". Anyway, this is totally irrelevant to the main discussion.
Except, I don't see anyone really specifically targeting you saying "Alessio, do this with your IP! Alessio, do that with your IP!" they're all talking about companies such as Nintendo, Sega, etc. They aren't talking about about your choices. That's at least as far as I know anyways, sometimes I get lost in the sea of text and miss chunks of it.

Also, I don't see the point in saying "mind your own business" if you've put your "business" into a discussion. If you don't want others discussing it either remove it or yourself from the discussion and the problem is largely solved.

Quote
Ah, by the way, this doesn't even give you the moral right to offend people who otherwise think that Nintendo's actions aren't as bad as some people want others to belive.

After writing this, we were here to talk about the fan-game and also it's "legality status", maybe. But some of you went personal because i agree with Nintendo's actions. I wanted a healty discussion but i'll stop here until everything calms down before a moderators goes at me and tells me to stop it, although i can't see through my post where i ever got personal to and didn't insult anybody directly. Because i didn't offend anybody here, i just write something that some people apparently don't like.
Other than RJ calling you a name (which he's apologized for) and me thinking that you are insinuating in a roundabout way that nobody has the right to an opinion on the matter but you (which is how it looks to me, but maybe I am wrong), I don't think it is as personal as you might be taking it.

Quote
You can't even write an opinion "chronicles of a fan-remake" that is different about the from what the rest of the Internet thinks. It seems that people want freedom of speech as long as other people agree with them.
That goes both ways, which is just kind of the nature of things. All people never 100% agree with all people. People like to argue, even when they can't handle a retort.

Quote
If drama was created, sorry, it was not my intention.
No drama that I can see, just discussion as per usual. Sometimes you get peaks of irritation, indignation, or whatever but it usually cools down and things get back on track. It took me many times of losing my shit here to realize the only one really giving me the middle finger here is me, everyone else is just trying to relax and kill time. So, no worries.
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« Reply #106 on: August 20, 2016, 06:13:15 PM »

A tool that can be used both legally and illegally. And many chose to distribute things illegally. Is it right? No, Must you stop it since it's illegal? Yes. The what are we talking about?

Who defines what is, or is not "illegal"? The Creator? Governments? Courts? The Public? You seem to suggest that laws are absolute values that must be righteously upheld, but laws are best served for maintaining peace and stability in a civil society and are subject to constant change, iteration, and relevance. There's an ongoing debate about what this new digital world should be, for example: Is it right that Elsevier keeps publicly funded research papers behind a paywall to enrich themselves? Is it right for file sharing databases to bypass those paywalls to allow poor or geographically restricted researchers all over the world to conduct their work? Theres also the question as to what degree file sharing should be considered a "crime", should a non-violent file sharing enthusiast who shares films for no monetary gain be getting a sentance longer than a convicted child rapist?

To me it seems like only because pirates make profit for a company then it's justified. You can't erase piracy, but what if you don't "contain" it? It's like an illness: if you don't try to contain an illness, it will spread. And no one wants pirates to spread over the world. Remember they're smugglers, regardless the company's profits.

Its not a question of justification, its a question of motivation. People share information amongst themselves as a matter of instinct, people have been sharing stories, ideas, and all manner of information since the dawn of time, in many respects we have too in order to survive. Copying and sharing digital information is a natural extention of that desire and instinct. You can rage against people as "thieves" but it won't change anything unless you try to understand the underlying reasoning. A small minority would never pay for anything out of principle, many do it because its not available or affordable, others to bypass deceptive marketing practices like fake/non-existent demo's, doctored video's, paid user reviews, or undisclosed paid Youtube promotions, etc. Then there's the growing amount of evidence that shows when legal alternatives are provided, piracy declines [1][2].

Who are you to decide what are my needs?
Let's put that some people prefer the old fashoned way and that you "progressist" have no literal right to tell other people what they should do. I couldn't care less about progress. I'll move on only when i will need it, not when "someone" decides for me. What if i still use VHS? It's my problem, not yours. Does a company decide to shut down fan works? Mind your own business. Does SEGA decide to treat fans better than their employees? Alright, i've no respect for these kind of people but that's their problem, may they do what they want, i'll not be there to keep them from doing stuff. But don't syndacate over other people's needs, please! That's the nastiest thing one can ever do, after treating people like shit Like SEGA did, as i previously written.

People and by extension society don't operate in a vacuum, they are all subject to the same cultural forces. The funny thing here though is I don't have to tell you or anyone else to do jack shit, nor does anyone have to listen to me. In the end the market is going to go where it goes, and thats usually the path of least resistence. Case in point, you can keep your VHS and enjoy it all you want, but you'll never get any new movies or TV shows on it unless you do it yourself because they only release on DVD these days which is cheaper, lighter, convient, stable, and has a higher capacity and run time. Its up to you whether or not you want to keep up. Just to be clear, I find Nintendo's interests and actions regretable, but not abhorent. But I can and will voice my opinion on the subject, if only because I want Nintendo to continue to be a successful and beloved company. You can also be sure that if they or anyone else steps over the line I can and will act on it, allowing people to blindly do whatever they want is a consistently proven mistake in regards to industry.

How do you decide it boosted sales? But that's not important anyway. No matter if it boosts sales, i can't let a full free remake of something you can't buy roam in the Web avaiable for all. Or i can but is that really convenient? Neverthless, you've no righto to criticize Nintendo's moves if they don't harm anybody but few disgruntled fans.

I don't know whether it harmed or boosted their sales, nobody does, thats the point. Regardless of how anyone feels, the remake is out there being shared and celebrated, as are all the developers of the original title by those whose lives they touched. Again, I have every right to offer my opinion on the subject, and 1.5 million+ people is not an inconsequential number of fans.

You write like it was though... or better, you write like there should be more freedom. But freedom, if not checked upon, can get out of hand. And that's bad.

And you write like an authoritarian, that doesn't mean we can't have a civil discussion of the issue. To a certain extent, I agree. But constraints on freedom shouldn't be applied without consensus, if they overly support a minorities or third parties interests it can be equally bad for everyone.

If that bothers you, then, you should go after the shitlords who abuse their power and not go against Nintendo because they've done something you just don't like but it's not all that wrong.

I'm not launching a hate campaign against Nintendo, I'm allowed to have an opinion about their actions and talk openly about it. As for the "shitlords", if it were that easy people would have done it by now, but suing people is not a zero sum game. Its why Copyright Trolls avoid the courts as much as possible and try to push settlements from people who can't afford to defend themselves. Theres also the problem of some not-so-honest judges who get a quid-pro-quo out of such legal actions, like the ever infamous patent courts of East Texas where any company who doesn't favor them with a free skating rink or two gets an automatic loss because of their overwhelming bias. Or the US Patent Office who seems to rubber stamp whatever bullshit idea hits their desk. There are groups like the EFF and others using hard fought provisions like the "inter partes review" process to invalidate garbage Patents, but its an uphill battle with things like many of the provisions in the Trans Pacific Partnership being the latest in an ongoing struggle over what this new digital world is supposed to look like.

I've the feeling that, when people say "it's gray" they mean that "it's more white than black". But, if it's gray, it an tend also to black. "It's a grey area" doesn't mean "i can do it".

Being a grey area simply means that the majority hasn't decided whether its good or bad yet, remember that nothing like the internet has ever existed in the whole of recorded human history, there are many forces working towards shaping what that means and how it will effect the future, the narative of intellectual "theft" being just one of many.
« Last Edit: August 20, 2016, 06:21:20 PM by Magurp244 » Logged
jamesprimate
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« Reply #107 on: August 20, 2016, 06:42:59 PM »

LMAO what happened in this thread? i came in like "oh hey how are people liking AM2R, Im thinking of playing it" but the last 4 pages are walls of irate text debating vague notions of morality and copyright law.
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gimymblert
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« Reply #108 on: August 20, 2016, 06:46:37 PM »

Fan games is the next indie revolution Noir
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« Reply #109 on: August 20, 2016, 06:48:03 PM »

i hope they use all this publicity and make a cool metroid clone
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FK in the Coffee
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« Reply #110 on: August 20, 2016, 07:19:49 PM »

I feel like it's gotten to the point where we should have a seperate “Fangames and Copyright” topic

Game's fantastic though; it looks and feels like a genuine Nintendo product
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rj
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« Reply #111 on: August 20, 2016, 07:52:23 PM »

except for the gigantic xbox 360 controller image that you're greeted with when you start it
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Magurp244
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« Reply #112 on: August 20, 2016, 08:09:31 PM »

Yeah guess this threads been thoroughly derailed huh?  Cheesy

More on topic, I finished with a 100% item rating. I confess I "cheated" a little for one or two of those rooms you unlock with electric balls, damn tricky speed-booster moves. For those who are interested in a little help towards your 100% runs, there's a full run through here.
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gimymblert
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« Reply #113 on: August 20, 2016, 10:03:55 PM »

Time to split to another topic I invoke the mod to use their power, split the sea!
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Alessio
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« Reply #114 on: August 21, 2016, 09:35:41 AM »

I just wanted to add that i've not got here for the joy of being a mini-hitler and dictate laws. It's just that, sometimes, in the web, i see people that seem to enjoy breaking law. Most of us actually has made something of less lecit to get things quickier, but when enforcers shut donw illegal activity i just can't feel angry about it.
I wanted to mention that, before Nintendo erased it, i managed to download the fan game and play it. It's so well done that i just can't imagine why he didn't make his own game instead. I probably would have bought it.

But i don't hate Nintendo and i just can't feel hate for it.

No intention to derail anything again, though.
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rj
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« Reply #115 on: August 21, 2016, 09:51:06 AM »

nah it's good.

the thing you're wrong about though is the presupposition that this constitutes illegal activity. it honestly doesn't, and i've already gone into why. the reason the thing was taken down was out of lack of willingness to spend the money and time on the legal battle; even if he came out victorious (which precedent suggests would happen) it would be expensive and annoying. much easier to just say "whatever."

the reason he didn't make an original title is that an original title is harder by far to get support for and it takes more work vis a vis working on level design etc
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« Reply #116 on: August 21, 2016, 08:56:35 PM »

or hey simply loved the idea of doing it and took the risks either way.

i had forgotten about the black mesa hl1 remake. it certainly is in the same vein as this project.

also, unless these are natural laws, generally laws are made to the benefit and satisfaction of the affetced individuals, and they keep getting reforms as needs and wants change.
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rj
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« Reply #117 on: August 21, 2016, 08:59:25 PM »

think of all the money and goodwill valve gained by saying "hey, sure, go ahead and sell this fangame. just give us a cut or whatever and make it steam exclusive is all we ask"

nintendo could have sniped this before it came out and done the same. missed opportunity.
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« Reply #118 on: August 21, 2016, 09:11:53 PM »

They have strong brand but their sales number are clearly falling
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« Reply #119 on: August 21, 2016, 09:29:55 PM »

AM2R is a bootleg of Metroid II.

Adi Shankar is a film bootlegger of existing franchises and has made quite a reputation on it. Most film studios do nothing to stop it because it garners more awareness for their IPs. This is the film industry though; a completely different beast.

Nintendo should have struck a deal with DM64. Give more funding to the project, polish it even more (perhaps under the guidance of a NoJ executive) and release it for the NX. This would not have hindered their other Metroid game in development (unless of course it is a Metroid II remake, LOL!). It's about extending beyond the corporatist attitude of IP dictatorship.

At least SEGA gets it...
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