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Alessio
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« on: August 18, 2016, 04:02:58 PM »

tl:dr
Someone just said me "everyone in the entertainment industry will rip you off". I believe many people are dishonest but i always lived in Italy, where dishonesty and jerkassery is somewhat rewarded. But i also believe that not everyone is like this. And if everyone but ripped off my ideas... what kind of chaotic world would be in? It can't be and i also believe that there is no way that the person in front of me is probably like me and not one kind of asshole ready to steal me goods. but it may depend from the environment you live in. This is the Internet, something that is open to be seen from almost every part of the world. Every country has its own faiths, costumes and culture. And i'm an insecure guy. What do you think about statements like that? Do you feel comfortable about showing off your ideas? Do you think the guy that will post after you, congratulating about your works, will actually steal your works? Or it's just a totally unfounded fear?

================

Hello all. This was a thread i wanted to create even time ago. It just raises one of my many worries.
I, as a digital artist, have always wondered whether it's a good idea showing off your original ideas or not.
Since this forum is a alchol-less virtual "lounge" of game designers and aspiring ones (like me), it's obvious we're showing off ideas of how our games will look like. I've got an issue, though.

I've met some professional artists that said "before ever being a successful author you will get a lot of your ideas stolen by others"... "people will always be ready to rip-off your unprotected intellectual property, no matter what, your ideas will be stolen" or even "If your idea is good, be sure people will be ripping off you". Wow, that's very pessimistic, but i've also something to state... sorry for the incoming rant.

I live in Italy. Now, i firmly believe that among italian people there are the most dishonest jerkasses you can ever find in your life. Remember "Jerkass Homer"? That's a lot worse. Especially among enterpreneurs. I know some people who should actually be behind the bars for not treating their employees in a legal way. They'll do illegal things, won't regret it and nobody will actually try to punish them, partly because they don't care or because they can't affort lawyers. Others are just unbelivable jerks. Just like these in this ten years old story i've read time ago.
These people are everywhere, sure, but, in Italy, it seems that your only options, if you want to be an illustrator, an animator or a comic book artist, are these jerks... If you're lucky you may enter Bonelli in Italy and there the situation is a tad better but there are still problems.

No wonder an italian co-directed Kung Fu Panda 3 instead of directing this italian piece of crap that looks like barely four times better than Foodfight!... No one who wants to grow professionally with these people! And one of the "original" italian dubbers of that movie is... well, she probably went to bed with Berlusconi (Bunga Bunga) in exchange of fame and success... something common in the "right wing" part of the italian's environment. It's not completely sure but i believe it because there is extreme corruption among these politicians and Berlusconi also owns mass media in Italy. Luckly, this is not common among ordinary people like us and many people loathe people like him.

Now, why this kind of rant when i could have only asked whether you feel comfortable or not with showing off your creations? I, i'll say this openly, am trying to justify my own distrust over people. But also want to be faithful, not everyone can be a jerk in this world. Therefore, i'm kinda challenged over this and i've a personal experience that made me fearful of showing off my stuff.
I was working with someone who wanted me to make concept arts for an animated TV series that i don't know if it will ever see the light of the day and he, at some point, asked me if he could use one character he saw from my illustrations as a character in his cartoon. I politely but also bluntly told him to not to. But when i saw he was insisting over it (he even said he was "defining" the story), i even suspected he was working on it without my permisson. Suspecting this i immediately asked him to not to, in a more upset manner. To avoid further risks, i removed a lot of illustrations from my deviantART depicting original characters. I've never known if this person was really attempting to take one my idea without permisson, though but it can be a possibility.
the deal could have ended better, though (i was paid less than i should have been previously).

These professional artists i was talking about, anyway, may seem too scaremongers from a positive person's point of view but i suspect that they speak in this way because they did really have problem with thieves of ideas. Especially because, as i've written before, i've temporarily attended an environment where dishonest jerks lurked like coackroaches in your basement.
On the other hand, my comic book art mentor also says me that i shouldn't be worried too much over these, as ripping off ideas doesn't happen as often as some say: he said that we "youngsters" are too afraid ot showing off stuff. While i'm afraid of people who rip-off ideas, i would really like to agree with him.

Honestly, when i see artists who made recognizable pieces of works and seeing their creation processes, i really can't imagine how they actually ripped off someone else's idea. When i see Cave Story, i see a lot of homages and not actually rip offs. When i saw videos of The Iconoclasts, i thought that, according to the person who spoke to me about people ripping off ideas, The Iconoclasts is 100% surely getting ripped off by someone else. I didn't see this is happening anywhere at all.
Undertale? I just see a bunch of characters i never saw anywhere at all. Shovel Knight's characters are just too stereotyped to be a rip off... And there are others.

Maybe some of these may have ripped off something but... seriously, if everyone rip offs each other... WHAT CHAOS OF A WORLD WOULD WE LIVE IN???
Sure, if you're not careful, your idea might get stolen, but is that so normal to you?

I mean, when i post in forum like these, i'm probably communicating with the whole world. Probably i'm communicating mostly with USA but it's a forum opened to the world public (aside those where Internet is blocked by dictatorships). Do you really think people are actually going to rip off your ideas? How common do you believe it is? What are your thoughts about this?

Sorry for the lenghty posts but i apparently can't summarize stuff properly so i write in papyruses. I don't want to purposefully appear insecure because... well, i'm very insecure, and i have my own personal reason to be like this.
« Last Edit: August 19, 2016, 05:27:52 AM by Alessio » Logged
rj
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« Reply #1 on: August 18, 2016, 04:15:54 PM »

it doesn't matter. execution is more important than concept.

nothing is new anyway.
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« Reply #2 on: August 19, 2016, 05:49:23 AM »

I agree that execution is more important. That's the biggest take-away. I think the popular concept of "no new ideas" is a bit reductive,  but it’s definitely true that "idea guys" are a dime a dozen.

Take this next part with a grain of salt from someone who has yet to release a major project, but here's one way to look at it. If you never share your work, it's not serving its purpose, neither for your audience nor yourself. You'll never know if it's even worth stealing and you won't learn to improve. Plus, if your stuff is available for people to see, it makes your job a lot easier in proving you made it first. Of course, take proper precautions where appropriate, in spite of any corruption you may have to deal with: watermark images, leverage your copyrights, etc. It’s better than nothing. Besides, many of the hack-jobs who like to copy the work of others do so because it's popular, and you're not there yet.
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« Reply #3 on: August 19, 2016, 04:33:06 PM »

Everything I will create is a composition of all the people I've directly or indirectly learned from and all the creations I have observed prior, all my inspirations, filtered through my world view and weaved into my own means of creativity.

If, as an artist, I am at all worth a damn my ideas and my creations will be copied, looted, and picked apart like a carcass descended upon by vultures and with what others will have taken from me and reshaped through their own wold view and means of creativity new art will be created.

That is why you see me littering TIGS with tutorials, ideas, etc. There's nothing more awesome than being able to give people a piece of who you are, what you know, what you think, etc. I enjoy helping people, I don't mind sharing knowledge and ideas.

Maybe when it comes to my actual game projects people might rip me off, maybe they take it and make millions. I've never had the intention to sell anything so I am not sure what I would lose. I don't have dreams of success, I have an addiction to creating and I enjoy sharing.

Maybe I am not the best person to comment on this topic, but that is where I am at in regards to it all.
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« Reply #4 on: August 20, 2016, 09:27:22 AM »

That is why you see me littering TIGS with tutorials, ideas, etc. There's nothing more awesome than being able to give people a piece of who you are, what you know, what you think, etc. I enjoy helping people, I don't mind sharing knowledge and ideas.
How can we find the gems created by your less-caffeinated form, now that the old username is no longer active?
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« Reply #5 on: August 20, 2016, 11:45:58 AM »

That is why you see me littering TIGS with tutorials, ideas, etc. There's nothing more awesome than being able to give people a piece of who you are, what you know, what you think, etc. I enjoy helping people, I don't mind sharing knowledge and ideas.
How can we find the gems created by your less-caffeinated form, now that the old username is no longer active?
I believe most of them are sitting in my dropbox, I'll go through it and re-link them in one location.
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« Reply #6 on: August 27, 2016, 08:04:46 AM »

it doesn't matter. execution is more important than concept.

^this.

I've had this discussion with friends dipping their toes into game dev. They want help, but "can't" share the idea in case someone steals it. It's always refreshing when they can finally discuss the idea and put it to the test and figure out what elements are out of scope and maybe where they should theoretically shift their efforts.
« Last Edit: August 27, 2016, 08:09:56 AM by huggmachine » Logged

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« Reply #7 on: August 29, 2016, 07:19:36 PM »

Have you ever translated an idea into reality with zero iteration? Absolutely not, that'd be insane. Execution is always short of vision - and there's always bumps along the way.

Even if you and a friend developed a game from the same idea, the way you develop around these "bumps" would be different than your friend -- and thus, the games would probably be different.

I use this argument when discussing musical loops -- you can give the same loop to 2 people and tell them "make a rock song" and the final products are guaranteed to be different.

This, plus all the other points everyone else has made.
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« Reply #8 on: August 30, 2016, 01:08:27 AM »

execution is more important than concept.

Should be one of the 10th commandment of game dev.
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Alessio
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« Reply #9 on: August 31, 2016, 03:33:20 AM »

The best thing i can admit is that, so far, i've never seen too often people here who rip-off each other. In some cases it happened but i admit these are rare. But around where i live the "entertainment" field is small and full of jerks. Think that most comic book publishers in Italy demand you work for free or for a mere €10/20 per page and don't even let you have the rights for these. They even demand you to pay if you want to publish your comic book with a publisher if you did one your creation.

Can't really think that most people rely on stealing other ideas instead of creating their own. Sure, some are authentic assholes that did that but i can't believe they're the majority in the whole world.

Well, so far i don't show anything because i don't have anything that is actually playable. I'm still learning. Maybe i'm worrying too much about things that don't exist. Even because my game ideas aren't anything actually so special someone would be willing to replicate at all costs and may be just an iteration of what already exist.

I know Vlambeer has been ripped of continuosuly, but that's after they made the games: the rip-offs don't even remotely look as good as Valmbeer's games. Everyone knows that Valmbeer has made these games. It's so much people start making parodies of clones of their games.
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« Reply #10 on: September 03, 2016, 02:31:48 PM »

I was catching up on the episodes of the show Vikings I was behind on when something a character called Harbard said kind of hit a note with me. He said "...do not try to posses me, because possession is the opposite of love." I think largely that is true, especially with creativity.

Can't really think that most people rely on stealing other ideas instead of creating their own. Sure, some are authentic assholes that did that but i can't believe they're the majority in the whole world.
I know Vlambeer has been ripped of continuosuly, but that's after they made the games: the rip-offs don't even remotely look as good as Valmbeer's games. Everyone knows that Valmbeer has made these games. It's so much people start making parodies of clones of their games.
How many Mario-esque platformers are there now? Tons more than there are straight-up Mario rip-offs. If your idea is good people will mimic it in their own fashion, and if that happens that is something you should be proud of. There's no greater sign than you've succeeded than that (it's like a good song being covered or remixed). The kinds of people who will outright steal your idea are the kinds of people who will outright steal any idea they think will turn a quick buck or result in quick notoriety. There's no avoiding these kinds of people, they'd do what they do regardless of who it is and as soon as the opportunity presents itself. If you put your ideas out there, people have watched you progress them along, then when a thief does come along you have a ton of people who know the truth and who'd likely be willing to call out a thief (especially those who've become invested in your creative journey and devlogs and whatnot).

Well, so far i don't show anything because i don't have anything that is actually playable. I'm still learning. Maybe i'm worrying too much about things that don't exist. Even because my game ideas aren't anything actually so special someone would be willing to replicate at all costs and may be just an iteration of what already exist.
So put your ideas out there, get feedback and connection, get suggestions on how to implement them and see them through. Especially when you are still learning that is the best time to do so.


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« Reply #11 on: September 04, 2016, 08:09:47 AM »

Anyway, probably, what i was meaning is that if i show something to the world that is cool, then the world will steal it and publish it before i could do something. A similar story here. At least i won't be remembered as the biggest scumbag on earth no one would love at all, if that story is true.

Of course i'd be happy if someone started mimicking my stuff, but only if i could be successful by it. I could even have some laughs (just look at Video Brinquedo, heck!!) What happened to the one in the link above is just unfortunate. Today, probably, is easier to copyright and trademark products. And with Internet it's also easier to see if works are stolen or not.
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« Reply #12 on: September 06, 2016, 08:37:58 PM »

People won't steal your idea.
You think you have the best idea ever, I think I have the best idea ever, He thinks he has the best idea ever. At the end of the day we will be lucky if one of us even executes it to its end.
And by then, we will all know that we did not have the best idea ever.(again)

The thing is most people (not super biased) also already know that they are not the best idea ever. They can still be really good. I see tons of super interesting games here, some have even better concepts than my own I feel.
But I won't steal it... 1 I'm already busy with my own stuff, 2 the other person is already ahead.
If the person was not ahead. Just put his idea out there well, it wouldn't catch the attention or make people think its interesting because as everyone said: Execution.
3 i like to be a decent person, but thats a terrible argument so forget it.

The ONLY way I see an idea being stolen is if it's stupid simple and an obvious hit*. something like bread... but sliced.

Vlambeer is not really fair, he has past sucesses, notoriety, it's fair to assume whatever he's cooking will be good (still not garenteed). and because of that copycats still can't steal the glory. They are leeches trying to extract some profit off someone else work.
Rarely (never?) do copycat beat the original, when they do they tend to "inspired" games and have some different features.

*there's no such thing as an obvious hit(I think), if someone else judges it as such, it's still his gut feeling.
And if all he had was the base idea, his guts that told him: this will be big. and he went ahead and executed it himself...
is he really that different from the idea originator except for the fact that he DID execute it?

Unless your already famous or your game is DONE and making good numbers.... sorry ppl wont steal your stuff.  Sad
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« Reply #13 on: September 07, 2016, 05:58:02 PM »

Ecclesiastes 1:9
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« Reply #14 on: September 09, 2016, 12:12:31 PM »

Would you rather die knowing that someone stole your idea (because they thought it was worth stealing), or knowing that your idea never even left your mind?
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« Reply #15 on: September 10, 2016, 02:57:28 PM »

this has inspired a poem

if someone makes love they're going to pay for it
can't go to work, because there's always someone making more work
I learned very little, practically nothing this life, it's elementary 
except all my worst habits now, maybe
my idea was to figure out how everything is useful
brand name cereal retarded my ability
dreams are heavy, carrying them is what defines a human as alive
Hurr Durr is coming, he gone rip-off your ideas... rest in peace
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« Reply #16 on: December 19, 2016, 09:36:48 AM »

The execution arguments are mostly on point for design work. If you work on something original make sure you tell about your idea as vaguely and precisely as possible but never go into the details of how it's constructed, also leave out at least one or two key points that are the core of the design working right

As far as graphics go, unless you have something really groundbreaking I wouldn't worry about it too much, visual styles are found pretty much everywhere
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« Reply #17 on: December 19, 2016, 05:48:10 PM »

Dude! First, noone cares enough about your original idea or original art to steal them. This is a fact. There are free idea generators online for games, books, films. Some are pretty good. There are free procedural generators for artwork. Check out Blender, Gimp and Inkscape modding community.
Second. No. I'm from Europe too. And while yes, this site is english language and hosted in the USA so probably yes there will be mostly americans here but that doesn't mean there won't be peeps here from Europe, Asia or Africa or from whereever. We are just fewer around here. Big deal.
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