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[Alessio]

tl:dr
After using GameMaker:Studio for a while, i realized that it might not be the rightest tool for my kind of person. And my kind of person is one that loves more making artistic assets and game designing than making programming, but won't whine over making few codes anyway. Besides lack of more advanced GML documentation through Youtube (not that i know and that actually can satisfy my needs), i also can't stand some problems that GameMaker has, kinda the poorly done Room Editor and overall dirty interface.

So i considered switching to something else. Still didn't try ClickTeam Fusion but i'd love to try it after seeing there are a lot of platform sidescrollers made with it while GameMaker has more TopDown games made with it. While i'm more inclined to Construct2 but i'm very, very sceptical about the HTML5 thing. I was also considering Construct Classic, but i don't know if it can be better than Construct2, but i've seen some capabilities that make me attracted to it.

So, How do actually play these engines? And what about HTML5? The game, not the engine it's done with, is important but would HTML5 cause problems to it?

============

Hello.

It's a while i'm using Game Maker: Studio and trying to learn its... anatomy? I've have a big problem and that problem is procrastination, among life issues and art. Therefore, while some months have passed since i started to use it seriously, i've used it overall for barely... two months. Taking away the time i take to draw assets, i've spent two months. But after playing with it, i considered changing it but i'm not sure.

I wanna be honest... in this timespan i've realized that i'd love focusing on designing a game more than programming it with code. Sure, you still need code logic and some programming won't hurt but i also need a workflow i'm comfortable with. I also couln't give a single flying elephant about "growing as a programmer": I want to make a game, not become a programmer. Mainly i don't have time to learn something i may not need at all. Don't get me wrong, though, i'm not diminishing the programming as a job. But why would i take a computer science class if i know i'm not willing to get a job as a programmer?
Neverthless, i still have doubts.

Now, i would like to ask about the other two engines i was interested in: Clickteam Fusion 2.5 and Construct2. I know this question has always been made but i've few more questions about Construct's HTML5's deal. I'll start with Clickteam Fusion 2.5, though.

I never tried Clickteam Fusion 2.5, once MultiMedia Fusion 2. I've heard that, in the long run, it can become a great hassle, though. but not sure what does "Frame Editor" for a map editor means, though. Some say you have to update "things" every frame to make things work, but not sure how that does work... seems alien to me. but i've heard Clickteam Fusion is so limited that you have to create your own level editor... is that true? O_o - Can it be that bad? I've seen a lot of very nice games done with that, to be honest. But i know this isn't the greatest way to judge a tool.

Not long ago i tried Construct2. Still didn't master it and with the totally "demo" free version is impossible to truly master it. GameMaker's Standard version has the advantage to be totally free. i'm a little sceptic towards the "event" system of Construct2 but, seriously, its "Layout Editor" is great! The editor has also a parallax-scrolling preview and it's directly applied to layers rather than to program that yourself Also supports a lot of things, if i could master it i would surely make a pixellated Rayman Origins on it (don't want to do Rayman, though).
But i'm still sceptic: Is Construct2 any good? Or it's just a child's toy?  I've seen very few games made with Construct2 so far but, as i've written before, it's not the greatest criteria of tool review.

But there is something that bugs me about Construct2 and it's mainly why i decided to write this thread: all this love towards "HTML5". Now, my ideal game isn't targeted to mobile so i'm not worried about poor performance in mobile devices but when i read "HTML5" i think to "a game you play with your browser", something i actually can't stand. I know you can export to .EXE but it's still HTML5. I don't want to make browser apps, i want to make a desktop action-adventure game.
Can you tell me more about HTML5? Is it reliable? I know that the game is what's important but can HTML5 cause problems?
Also, is Construct Classic better than Construct2? It can seem absurd, since Construct2 should be more advanced, but Construct Classic, it's said, has more features and doesn't seem to have the HTML5 problem.

After this, i want to about my feelings towards GameMaker.
In these two months i could know Game Maker as a tool better. and i've noticed some things.
I can understand why people say that it's a very powerful tool. It is, definitely, but... it's frustrating, in the long run!
No, the frustrating part is not GML itself. The biggest problem i have with learning GML is that, aside from the help files, third party documentation is mainly targeted at beginners, there is no such of an advanced guide. It's very easy to get lost, if you don't know what you're doing.
Right now i've ordered GameMaker Programming with GML, seems to cover a lot of topics, has plenty of pages (i love this) and i hope it turns out to be good enough.
Then, can't stand a lot of problems with the Game Maker's system itself. Let's face it, its interface sucks ass, literally! It's terribly slow! And the Room Editor is terrible! Can't make multiple selections! And no actual object selection window but just a popup menu! Then, GM:Studio, then is just a re-skinned version of GM8, let's be honest!

They're making GM2.0 now, let's hope YoYo doesn't try to screw up things. Who knows, maybe GM2.0 will be more similar to modern engines and less to GM8.
At the end of the day, i'm the kind of person who focus a lot on graphics and would like to focus on the game design aspect of game development than programming.

What are your feedback? And what's about the HTML5 deal?

[JWK5]

The problem is no matter what you use to a degree there is going to be some form of programming involved, the major difference when it comes to "maker" type tools is how much of the program is automated by simpler "surface level" programming and how it is presented.

It would help to know what kind of game you are making because a lot of different tools are more suited towards one kind of game than another. For example, RPGMaker automates most of the complex coding of a JRPG but requires some serious workarounds when it comes to making other kinds of games (which it still can do, even without using RUBY scripting).

If you don't really care about improving as a programmer then you might be better off looking for someone else to handle that part of the project, because saying "I also couln't give a single flying elephant about "growing as a programmer": I want to make a game, not become a programmer" is like saying "I don't care about learning to be a painter, I want to make a painting of a waterfall scene!" Just because you have the idea doesn't mean you can find some way to trivialize the work.

That said, with Game Maker: Studio a lot of games can be made more easily than you'd think but it still comes down to what you are trying to make. You can make Pacman in GM:S with little to no effort, but making a procedural Metroidvania is obviously going to require more programming knowledge and more time spent programming. You can try ClickTeam Fusion but to a degree you are going to still hit the programming wall, though it may or may not be less of a hurdle if the methods used in ClickTeam Fusion suit your way of thinking. As for HTML5, I don't have a whole lot to say there because I've never bothered with it.

Anyways, either find yourself a programmer or come back to it all with a little more willingness to learn.
 

No, the frustrating part is not GML itself. The biggest problem i have with learning GML is that, aside from the help files, third party documentation is mainly targeted at beginners, there is no such of an advanced guide. It's very easy to get lost, if you don't know what you're doing.

I know that especially in the beginning where you are stuck sitting there like "Where the fuck do I even start!?" it feels very frustrating and hopeless, I felt like that too. I had to learn from bits and pieces of tutorials I could scour the internet for over the years.

Why don't you start a Devlog for your project so that people have an idea of what you are trying to create, and then you can start requesting help for learning. Even if what you need is someone to walk you through the steps and give you better explanations of what things mean I know there are people here who are up to the task (just PM me the Devlog link and I will keep tabs on it and help as much as I can).



Anyways, I hope you figure out what works for you, and good luck.

[Polly]

JWK5 - Good post

If you want to develop for browsers, HTML5 is the way to go ( which is why Unity and Game Maker can export to HTML5 ). But if you ( primarily ) want to develop for desktop / mobile / console, i'd stay clear from engines build around HTML5.

[Alessio]

I don't agree with something though.

If you don't really care about improving as a programmer then you might be better off looking for someone else to handle that part of the project, because saying "I also couln't give a single flying elephant about "growing as a programmer": I want to make a game, not become a programmer" is like saying "I don't care about learning to be a painter, I want to make a painting of a waterfall scene!" Just because you have the idea doesn't mean you can find some way to trivialize the work.

I'm a digital artist and it's completely different: you can't make good art if you're not a good artist. Programming knowledge is useful for a game designer but the last focuses on the game, not on the program. But i'm not writing about the easier scripting tools like GML, but about learning all the C++ of the world. Not something that interests me and nor anything i have time with. I want to learn only what i actually need for my tasks. Luckly, my idea of a videogame doesn't go beyond a Super Mario World one, where little to nothing is procedural. Therefore, if my goal wasn't a roguelike game, i don't see why should i learn making a roguelike.

I just wanted more info about these two programs: Construc2 and Clickteam Fusion 2.5. I mean, GameMaker:Studio can't be the only one good tool for game creation. I really liked Construct2's approach but wanted to know better if HTML5 can keep my game intact even if i use its EXE exporter (Because Construct2 can export to EXE albeit still being HTML5 based). Luckly for programmers, both Construct2 and ClickTeam Fusion 2.5 supports third party programming. I just like Construct's editor more.

Anyways, either find yourself a programmer or come back to it all with a little more willingness to learn.

No, it's not that i'm not willing to learn GML (i've even ordered a book), i just want to learn what i need for what i want to make: what turns me down about GameMaker the most, as i've written before, is the totally crippled user interface and room editor that makes building elaborate levels just frustrating. Seriously, i hope GM2.0 isn't just a re-skin of GM:Studio, like itself was a re-skin of GM8. When i was testing my stuff and seeing them working as intended, i was like "well, i've coded an super-awesome enemy but now i realize the hardest part of creating it: placing the object into the Room Editor ". I can imagine the frustration of one user trying to create Mario levels with the Hello's Engine. Seriously, if it wasn't for the stupid Room Editor i would't be a tad reluctant for using GameMaker. Seriously, GameMaker could be awesome if it wasn't just a re-skin of a professional version.

[quantumpotato]

Hi, I quite like HTML5 + Javascript because it works across browsers. You can package the game as a binary with https://github.com/electron-userland/electron-packager. Works well with gamepads.

With this you could theoretically send to Steam.

Xbox & PS4 are non HTML AFAIK. Nintendo offers a HTML5 SDK for the Wii though I am as of recently unable to register on their site https://forums.tigsource.com/index.php?topic=57340.0

I'm sending you a DM on this site with a download to my game. You can open its directory to view its engine, how it draws and game logic. Hope that gives you some idea of what's possible in HTML5.

[JWK5]

Luckly, my idea of a videogame doesn't go beyond a Super Mario World one, where little to nothing is procedural. Therefore, if my goal wasn't a roguelike game, i don't see why should i learn making a roguelike.

Which was what I was getting at, post for help regarding the game you want to make so that you can get help specifically targeting making a game like that and not help that is not quite what you need and makes the process take longer.

I just wanted more info about these two programs: Construc2 and Clickteam Fusion 2.5. I mean, GameMaker:Studio can't be the only one good tool for game creation. I really liked Construct2's approach but wanted to know better if HTML5 can keep my game intact even if i use its EXE exporter (Because Construct2 can export to EXE albeit still being HTML5 based). Luckly for programmers, both Construct2 and ClickTeam Fusion 2.5 supports third party programming. I just like Construct's editor more.

It really has nothing to do about which program is better because for the most part it all comes down to which program you can actually use better. In other words, which program actually suits the way you go about things. Sometimes that is something that takes time to develop, sometimes it just meshes well with you right away. Use what works for you, and there is nothing wrong with toying around with a few programs to find what that is.

what turns me down about GameMaker the most, as i've written before, is the totally crippled user interface and room editor that makes building elaborate levels just frustrating.

Seriously, if it wasn't for the stupid Room Editor i would't be a tad reluctant for using GameMaker. Seriously, GameMaker could be awesome if it wasn't just a re-skin of a professional version.

It's not as crippled as you might thing, you've just got to know how to work with it. Building your own level editor in it is pretty easy, which is again something you can learn by asking for more specific help.



EDIT: On that note, though this week I am pretty swamped trying to prep for Ludum Dare I am still more than willing to help you out to the best of my ability. You can (as can anyone else) feel free to PM me for help and I will do what I can. I create and use a lot of visual aids and diagrams when trying to explain things so some people have an easier time learning from me.

[Alessio]

Hi, I quite like HTML5 + Javascript because it works across browsers. You can package the game as a binary with https://github.com/electron-userland/electron-packager. Works well with gamepads.
With this you could theoretically send to Steam.
Xbox & PS4 are non HTML AFAIK. Nintendo offers a HTML5 SDK for the Wii though I am as of recently unable to register on their site https://forums.tigsource.com/index.php?topic=57340.0
I'm sending you a DM on this site with a download to my game. You can open its directory to view its engine, how it draws and game logic. Hope that gives you some idea of what's possible in HTML5.

I'll give a look when i have time, thanks!

Which was what I was getting at, post for help regarding the game you want to make so that you can get help specifically targeting making a game like that and not help that is not quite what you need and makes the process take longer.

Asking for help is hard, sometimes. Especially with limited knowledge. Once you know how to use tools things get easier and easier.

It's not as crippled as you might thing, you've just got to know how to work with it. Building your own level editor in it is pretty easy, which is again something you can learn by asking for more specific help.

It is, definitively! Or more than crippled, it's ludicrously limited. Sure, there are workarounds (you can put the object you want to frequently place in one specific room on top of everything without even looking for the entire object list) but it's still an hassle. Also one only "undo" and unable to select more object at one time. I don't feel like making a level editor, though (unless it's actually an ingame feature) that would be too demaning for me. Just hope GM2.0 will improve that super-limiting room editor.

It really has nothing to do about which program is better because for the most part it all comes down to which program you can actually use better. In other words, which program actually suits the way you go about things. Sometimes that is something that takes time to develop, sometimes it just meshes well with you right away. Use what works for you, and there is nothing wrong with toying around with a few programs to find what that is.

That's also exact, but  i'll also come with that every tool has its pros and cons. One GameMaker's pros is the flexible script language and also being free with almost all features but its con is, as i've written before, the horrible and outdated Room Editor... It's since GM6 that it hasn't been updated, seriously! GameMaker could be better, really.

I've heard about Clickteam Fusion 2.5's for being very simple and intuitive with a lot of custom extentions but can get confusing in the long run with the event editor, but these are the rumors i've read. Also limited with free edition.

Construct2's pro is that has an incredibly powerful editor (seriously, the parallax-in editor is a big bomb) and a lot of built-in features that save time but i'm a bit sceptical about the fact that is HTML5. Also a bit sceptical about the event sheet (although having multiple even sheets can help keeping "code" organized, also sub-events), but i've never went in depth onto that, since Construct2's free edition is a clear demo so the user may consider buying it.

But i still wonder if both Clickteam Fusion 2.5 and Construct2 are worth the money. If it wasn't for the money i would consider looking in depth of these programs but i also wanted from some users who use these tools if they're worth money.

[JWK5]

Asking for help is hard, sometimes. Especially with limited knowledge.

So start there.

"I have limited knowledge with GM:S/GML, but this is what I'd like to do. Can someone help me figure out how to do it?"

Starting with the room editor, it's limited functions can be a pain in the ass but I usually have my levels saved as ds_ data structures to a text file so that I can create my own editor to set up the room and then pass it back to GM. Basically, GM creates the guts and my editor creates the body. I am not saying it is the most practical way to have to work, but there are some serious benefits to it that even outweigh the default setups of other maker programs (such as you get to fine tune a set of tools exactly as they are needed and work best for you). It seems very daunting to do but it's really not once you have a better understanding of what does what. Since it is really just placing objects, tiles, and whatnot all you're doing is just creating a layout editor anyways.

Having toyed around a bit with both ClickTeam Fusion and Construct I do know that they have somewhat better room editors than GM:S but the problem I ran into is there are still parts of their editors that frustrate things I want to accomplish or force me to resort to roundabout measures. I personally did not find much more benefit working with them over GM:S, but maybe you might.

Either way, like I said if you put out there what you got (or PM it) and show people where you're stuck (even if it is on something you fear should be fairly simple or you need to be walked through it step-by-step) you'll get help. Aside from shooting the breeze, that's what this forum is here for.

[Amirai]

As someone who spent years working on a game in construct classic, don't use construct classic. It's unsupported, has problems that aren't apparent from the start and has almost no community. There's also very little that it can do that C2 can't, and there's a lot that C2 can do that CC can't.

As for HTML5, it's true that it's imperfect, but it's steadily improving. However, if your main opposition is that you don't want to make "browser games," ask yourself this: if someone coded a game both natively and using C2's exe export then ran them side by side and they looked completely identical, which would you have a problem with? The point is, what does it matter what's running under the hood, especially if you never actually have to directly work with the code when using something like C2? It's just that you've associated web tech with crap games because of so many garbage games that were made to be run in web browsers.

I'm not going to pretend C2 is perfect, but honestly, all engines have their problems, even bigger names like Unity. That said, of everything I've tried, C2 is by far my favorite to use.

I can't recommend clickteam fusion. I don't want to bash on the program because it's capable of making great games, but it has tons of issues that I found infuriating and is updated so slowly it's basically the same as it was a decade ago aside from having more exporters. When I used it, I was constantly fighting with it. With C2, I'm gliding in comparison - if I'm fighting with anything, it's almost always my own code.

[Tokinsom]

It's worth noting that Construct 3 and Fusion 3 are both coming out soon - likely next year.

Fusion 3 is a complete rewrite whereas Construct 3 is just a new editor...so if you're interested in using C2, you can start with that then move on to C3 when it comes out. I would avoid Fusion 2.5 entirely because it's outdated and being thrown out the window soon anyway. Construct Classic is long abandoned so you should definitely avoid that as well.

Construct 2 is aimed at beginners, yes, but it is hardly a toy. Some notable games being developed in it are The Next Penelope, Cyber Shadow, Moira, Coin Op Story, Blitz Breaker, Klang, and I guess I can mention our own game - Copy Girl. I don't know why Scirra are so reluctant to make a showcase page...

As for HTML5, eh. You can use wrappers like NW.js to create desktop .exe's.
If you're worried about performance or whatever, just check out Cross Code or The Next Penelope. No issues there.

As for Game Maker...no comment. I always thought it was terrible. Some pretty great games have been made with it, though.

[Polly]

I don't know why Scirra are so reluctant to make a showcase page.

Click

[Tokinsom]

I don't know why Scirra are so reluctant to make a showcase page.

Click

Ah. Well, still, there are waaaaay more games Scirra could be showing off than just those.

[Alessio]

Ok, i see interesting points here.

....  ..... .. ......


^No, not these points.

Starting with the room editor, it's limited functions can be a pain in the ass but I usually have my levels saved as ds_ data structures to a text file so that I can create my own editor to set up the room and then pass it back to GM. Basically, GM creates the guts and my editor creates the body. I am not saying it is the most practical way to have to work, but there are some serious benefits to it that even outweigh the default setups of other maker programs (such as you get to fine tune a set of tools exactly as they are needed and work best for you). It seems very daunting to do but it's really not once you have a better understanding of what does what. Since it is really just placing objects, tiles, and whatnot all you're doing is just creating a layout editor anyways.

I can see the point but this is just not my kind of workflow. For some it may be but definitely not mine.
Noe i'm not here to promote piracy. I just wanted to write about Lunar Magic, a ROM hacking level editor for Super Mario World. If GameMaker's Room Editor had just half the features that tool had, it would be incredible, seriously. Lunar Magic edits aspect of the Mario World engine but it seems a professional Game Making tool! Lunar Magis has a system that makes level tiling a cakewalk! Can make multiple selection, can copy and paste selections, work both for static tiles and objects. Why in the god can't these features be in a tool like Game Maker? I may only need these! Still, i hope GM2.0 will be a surprise rather than just a re-skin. I honestly wouldn't code my own level editor with GML if i didn't need anything besides multiple selection, copy and paste and multiple "undos/redos", which, in my honest opinion, very important for level design. If my game has an integrated level editor like Spelunki, Gunpoint or Stealth Bastards, maybe i'll write a level editor.
I mean, i should build my editor when i feel like to, not because i'm forced to.

As someone who spent years working on a game in construct classic, don't use construct classic. It's unsupported, has problems that aren't apparent from the start and has almost no community. There's also very little that it can do that C2 can't, and there's a lot that C2 can do that CC can't.

Fusion 3 is a complete rewrite whereas Construct 3 is just a new editor...so if you're interested in using C2, you can start with that then move on to C3 when it comes out. I would avoid Fusion 2.5 entirely because it's outdated and being thrown out the window soon anyway. Construct Classic is long abandoned so you should definitely avoid that as well.

I get it.
I've written about Construct Classic because i've seen Konjak of The Iconoclasts use it for that game. Now that game looks amazing, but if Construct Classic is so outdated then i wonder why he would keep using that, then. Maybe he uses third-party tools but i actually don't know. I'll follow these advices then and i'll stay away from Construct Classic.

As for HTML5, it's true that it's imperfect, but it's steadily improving. However, if your main opposition is that you don't want to make "browser games," ask yourself this: if someone coded a game both natively and using C2's exe export then ran them side by side and they looked completely identical, which would you have a problem with? The point is, what does it matter what's running under the hood, especially if you never actually have to directly work with the code when using something like C2? It's just that you've associated web tech with crap games because of so many garbage games that were made to be run in web browsers.

Yeah, but The problem with web games is that, unless mine is a game created on purpose, i wouldn't really enjoy the fact that my action-adventure game is played on Google Chrome, regardless it's good or bad. I'd like to see it on Steam, if possible.
The fact that many browser games are crap may be attributed to the fact that some of these are made with a "easy-to-make" framework and uploaded by beginners (long ago i stumbled over a crappy Mario web fangame where the background moved when the player moved... ouch!!!!). But if my game is a EXE and makes no difference from native, it's fine for me. I'm advantaged because i don't plane to move to mobile at all (which i've read it's still bad with Construc2)

I'm not going to pretend C2 is perfect, but honestly, all engines have their problems, even bigger names like Unity. That said, of everything I've tried, C2 is by far my favorite to use.

Well, not even Cate Blanchett from LOTR is perfect.

I can't recommend clickteam fusion. I don't want to bash on the program because it's capable of making great games, but it has tons of issues that I found infuriating and is updated so slowly it's basically the same as it was a decade ago aside from having more exporters. When I used it, I was constantly fighting with it. With C2, I'm gliding in comparison - if I'm fighting with anything, it's almost always my own code.

These are all common complaints about Clickteam Fusion 2.5. That's why i kinda stayed away from it, they've not get to be biased.
I wonder if Clickteam Fusion 3 will be better, though.

Construct 2 is aimed at beginners, yes, but it is hardly a toy. Some notable games being developed in it are The Next Penelope, Cyber Shadow, Moira, Coin Op Story, Blitz Breaker, Klang, and I guess I can mention our own game - Copy Girl. I don't know why Scirra are so reluctant to make a showcase page...

These all actually look very nice. I also like the graphics of these. It's a shame most of these are still work in progress. I guess that's the one reason Construct2's showcase has so few games but i'd also add that it's because Construct2's very young.

Anyway, i'll see what to do, thanks for the feedbacks. I may consider getting Construct2 but i'd still like to learn GameMaker:Studio. Do you think that GameMaker is better suited for some tasks whereas Clickteam and Construct are better at others respectively? I ask because i've read about users who have written that GameMaker sucks for sidescrollers. What do you think of that?

[Polly]

But if my game is a EXE and makes no difference from native, it's fine for me.

There's a difference in performance, memory footprint, file-size and dependencies .. as such executable is basically a standalone web-browser that only plays a embedded game. But not all developers care about these kind of things

Do you think that GameMaker is better suited for some tasks whereas Clickteam and Construct are better at others respectively? I ask because i've read about users who have written that GameMaker sucks for sidescrollers.

Of course they all have their strengths & weaknesses, but in the end it's primarily a matter of preference.

[Amirai]

I've written about Construct Classic because i've seen Konjak of The Iconoclasts use it for that game. Now that game looks amazing, but if Construct Classic is so outdated then i wonder why he would keep using that, then. Maybe he uses third-party tools but i actually don't know. I'll follow these advices then and i'll stay away from Construct Classic.

He started with CC before development on C2 had begun and tried to stick with it, but it's actually currently being ported by a third-party from CC. Also, as far as I know, that game could be made in C2 as well.

I should also make it clear just how much of an improvement C2 is. The reason they didn't fix the problems in CC is because it basically would have required a rewrite from scratch - which is what they did and it became C2.

Yeah, but The problem with web games is that, unless mine is a game created on purpose, i wouldn't really enjoy the fact that my action-adventure game is played on Google Chrome, regardless it's good or bad. I'd like to see it on Steam, if possible.

I don't think I was clear. The exe window C2 generates doesn't look like chrome or a web browser, and can be made entirely borderless or full screen so there is no evidence at all to the player that it's running on web tech. There are also already C2 games on steam.

The fact that many browser games are crap may be attributed to the fact that some of these are made with a "easy-to-make" framework and uploaded by beginners (long ago i stumbled over a crappy Mario web fangame where the background moved when the player moved... ouch!!!!).

Exactly my point. Just because it was a beginner's work doesn't mean the tech itself isn't capable of professional results. As a counter example, Bastion was ported to web tech.

I guess that's the one reason Construct2's showcase has so few games but i'd also add that it's because Construct2's very young.

Yep. Games take a while to make, and many developers wait until the first wave of showcase games come out to prove an engine is worth using, and then the second wave takes another long period to come out. C2's mid-first wave.

Anyway, i'll see what to do, thanks for the feedbacks. I may consider getting Construct2 but i'd still like to learn GameMaker:Studio. Do you think that GameMaker is better suited for some tasks whereas Clickteam and Construct are better at others respectively? I ask because i've read about users who have written that GameMaker sucks for sidescrollers. What do you think of that?

I only used game maker for a short while before deciding it wasn't for me, so I don't know the answer to that.

But if my game is a EXE and makes no difference from native, it's fine for me.

There's a difference in performance, memory footprint, file-size and dependencies .. as such executable is basically a standalone web-browser that only plays a embedded game. But not all developers care about these kind of things

Yeah, I didn't mean there's no differences at all from native behind the scenes, rather that the person playing wouldn't be able to tell the difference.

[Polly]

Bastion was ported to web tech.

Quite the opposite. The browser version of Bastion uses NaCl ( Native Client ) .. which is a technique that allows you to run native code ( written in for example C or C++ ) in your browser.

Yeah, I didn't mean there's no differences at all from native behind the scenes, rather that the person playing wouldn't be able to tell the difference.

Aside from the inflated system requirements

[Amirai]

Bastion was ported to web tech.

Quite the opposite. The browser version of Bastion uses NaCl ( Native Client ) .. which is a technique that allows you to run native code ( written in for example C or C++ ) in your browser.

That isn't what I would call the opposite. Yes, C and C++ aren't web tech at all and NaCl isn't HTML5 and wasn't made part of the web standard, but as you said, it's still a technology for programs to run in a browser. Hence, web tech (though I understand how it could have seemed like I didn't know it wasn't HTML5).

I suppose it's just a matter of what our personal definitions of the term ‘web tech' are - unless that term is used by everyone only to represent the official tech in the web standards and I just don't know about it, but then I suppose it gets kind of messy when anything past the official standards can include things like flash which blur the line, but that discussion would really be pointless anyway.

My point was that it runs in a browser and isn't a crap web game.

Aside from the inflated system requirements

Heh, true.

[Alessio]

There is always difference of performance between frameworks. Whereas GameMaker is good for mobile, for what i've read in the web, you should be careful with Construct2. But i don't plan anything for mobile, mine is a Joypad game... i wonder if it works with both DirectInput and XInput. I also wonder if it won't lag if one plans to make a Bullet Hell game for desktops with it (not my plan to make a Bullet Hell game but there may be rare cases where there are more or less hundred bullets on-screen): i've seen some examples and seem very smooth but performance may be biased by the GPU the game is running on. Mine is also pixel-art so the resolution of every texture don't consume much memory, for what i can imagine, i may be wrong, though.
(Also remember to destroy bullets outside the view or the screen, like in any respectable game)

The main reason i've chosen GameMaker for first is because it was code. I may be wrong but i always thought that things made with code are always flexible. And from what i've seen from its scripting language, i can understand why GameMaker is considered the most flexible amond these three frameworks. One can do pretty much everything once they've got carried away and they're limited only by the program's capability. Shame that, i repeat, the interface itself is the total opposite and full of glitches.

I started fiddling around Construct2's free demo again and i still say that i'm impressed from it. I'm following Ashley's platform guide (to learn, for now, since i'll be following tutorials) and i was impressed i can actually set a different frame speed for each individual frame whereas GameMaker needs workarounds (that are very easy either, anyway). I noticed that it lacked very few things that will make the job a little slower (when editing in Construct2's image editor, i can't copy and paste mask values and can't pixel_snap coordinate points either) but that doesn't ruin the experience significantly as GameMaker's Room Editor does. Not sure if certain behaviors (like the platform one i'm using for the tutorial) are actually viable for serious projects. I just wonder if Construct2's event system cam be as capable as GML for ordinary stuff and when you actually need to write a Javascript plugin to get things done. What Javascript is useful for, in Construct2?

He started with CC before development on C2 had begun and tried to stick with it, but it's actually currently being ported by a third-party from CC. Also, as far as I know, that game could be made in C2 as well.
I should also make it clear just how much of an improvement C2 is. The reason they didn't fix the problems in CC is because it basically would have required a rewrite from scratch - which is what they did and it became C2.

So he was kinda forced to? That's quite bad. I don't think Construct2 has backward compatiblity. Effecively that seemed weird to me that his game was on PlayStation's Youtube channel. Now that makes sense to me. I also get that the first Construct was an ambition project by students: i guess that ambition came true.