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TIGSource ForumsPlayerGeneralFight Thread Pollution! Post here if it's not worth a new thread!!!
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DavidCaruso
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« Reply #9700 on: January 21, 2012, 05:44:41 PM »

How about the fact that 90% of the shit Hollywood churns out simply isn't worth my money.

Wait, why are you even watching it at all if you know in advance it's not worth your time?

Anyway I think you're right in that piracy is probably more an issue of convenience than not wanting to pay (though it is that a lot of the time too.) As far as movies and TV shows go, Netflix Instant quality is pretty shitty for me and Hulu doesn't have earlier seasons of, like, anything I'd want to watch. Likewise, with old games it's way more convenient to download a ROM than to buy a port collection or VC, and in addition I get a more accurate experience, I can apply fanmade patches and use scanline display filters, etc. (I don't care hugely about stuff like DRM in regards to anything except games, but I can see why some people do.)
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« Reply #9701 on: January 21, 2012, 05:45:55 PM »

Netflix Instant quality is pretty shitty for me

Hmm, it looks fine for me.
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DavidCaruso
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« Reply #9702 on: January 21, 2012, 05:52:10 PM »

Netflix Instant quality is pretty shitty for me

Hmm, it looks fine for me.

Maybe you just have a better connection than I do or something, Usually I see quite a bit of artifacting when I use it. I still try to watch using it when a movie I want to see is available there, though, since at the end of the day it's still pretty tolerable even if I'd prefer awesome HD cleanness, etc.
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« Reply #9703 on: January 21, 2012, 05:53:19 PM »

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Likewise, with old games it's way more convenient to download a ROM than to buy a port collection or VC, and in addition I get a more accurate experience, I can apply fanmade patches and use scanline display filters, etc
Also the fact that with ports and official emulation, you're stuck with one platform. Old console and arcade games are probably one of the best examples of the "piracy" alternative being FAR superior to the official ones.

It'd be cool if a company made some legit, commercial, multiplatform emulators and sold licensed roms for them, kinda like GOG.com but for console games. But yeah, never gonna happen.
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« Reply #9704 on: January 21, 2012, 06:42:47 PM »

Netflix Instant quality is pretty shitty for me

Hmm, it looks fine for me.

Maybe you just have a better connection than I do or something, Usually I see quite a bit of artifacting when I use it. I still try to watch using it when a movie I want to see is available there, though, since at the end of the day it's still pretty tolerable even if I'd prefer awesome HD cleanness, etc.

If you press ctrl+alt+shift+s it'll "force" HD quality on the movie you're watching. Strangely enough my connection can stream HD movies without hiccup but Netflix just won't do it by default, so I have to use the key command. I think it's worth it even if you do have to buffer. The HD is nice.

Also @ the price thing:
I personally don't bother with most movies as it is. But unless I've deemed it a must-see I probably won't go see it because theater/dvd costs are pretty high for something I'll probably only watch once. There are many movies I'd consider worth the time, but not worth the money.
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ஒழுக்கின்மை (Paul Eres)
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« Reply #9705 on: January 21, 2012, 07:29:45 PM »

@paul: Where in the heck are you getting that info? That seems ridiculous, I'd hate for that to be true.

i'm just going by my own rate of piracy and the rates of piracy of indie developers who have shared that information (often secretly) with other indie game developers. i'm curious if any formal studies have been done on it though. but anecdotally, rates of 90% do seem low to me, i've seen many many anecdotal rates of 95% or greater

but i was curious about formal studies so i looked some up:

piracy by country: http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_sof_pir_rat-crime-software-piracy-rate -- armenia is the highest at 93%, united states actually has the *lowest* piracy rate of any country, at 20%. the average seems to be about 60%. interestingly, japan also has a very low rate of piracy, 23% -- perhaps it's because's there's less digital distribution there?

general piracy study: http://portal.bsa.org/globalpiracy2009/studies/globalpiracystudy2009.pdf -- the overall piracy rate increased from 41% in 2008 to 43% in 2009. north america's piracy rate remained stable at 21%, the increase was mainly from the rest of the world. russia actually has a falling piracy rate (perhaps because of steam, or perhaps because its economy is improving). piracy went down in italy, greece, and columbia greatly, after tax audits were changed to require software license compliance. but overall piracy increased if you take every country into account. the list of countries by piracy rate is similar to the one above, but armenia isn't top anymore, it's georgia (the country, not the state). the US is still dead last in piracy in this list, at 20%

but apparently this doesn't tell the whole story, because you also have to consider the *value* of pirated software. and the *value* of pirated software is actually the *highest* in the US, at 8.3 billion. china is second, russia is a distant third. so although the US has a low piracy rate, because so many people own computers, the piracy that does happen is "worth" the most money of any country

there's a lot of other interesting stuff in this study, such as a pie chart that breaks down like this: 43% of all installed software is pirated, 12-22% of all installed software is open-source or free, and 35-45% of all installed software is registered / paid-for software

anyway, what i can say is that from these studies, it appears as if indie games are pirated much more than other forms of software (including perhaps AAA games), because from the data i see with my own games and the games of other indie game developers, it appears as if we have much higher piracy rates than the average rate of 43%

it's also notable that this study doesn't break down games from other software. it's possible that games in general have much higher piracy rates than other forms of software (such as windows, or word, or autocad, or whatever)

if you want some anecdotal instances of piracy rates of indie games at or above 90%, you an probably fund a bunch of them by searching google. here's a couple i found pretty easily

http://www.gamasutra.com/php-bin/news_index.php?story=25809 -- tap-fu indie developer says there's a 90% piracy rate of their game. it's kind of sad to see comments like "And still some games have a absurd profit. So what he is complaining about?"

http://www.reddit.com/r/gamedev/comments/hs5y5/my_ios_app_is_being_pirated_to_the_point_where/ -- this guy talks on reddit about a 90% piracy rate of his iphone app. again many of the comments are negative, saying he deserves it for trying to sell something, etc.

as you can see, i feel that indies are discouraged from even talking about the piracy rates of their own games, because then they're attacked and called complainers, even when the rates are 90%+. that's part of why i never wrote an article about the piracy rate of my own game; doing so would just generate controversy for no reason, and perhaps cause it to be pirated even more

anyway, i'd like to see a more detailed study that focuses on piracy rates of games specifically (rather than software in general), and sees if there is any difference between AAA pc games and indie games in piracy rate. my expectancy would be that indie games are pirated the most, because they're much easier to pirate (no DRM, and often the game is in a zip, so you don't even need a keygen program)
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« Reply #9706 on: January 21, 2012, 07:38:06 PM »

I feel like a lot of the big game manufacturers would do best to just give out their old roms for free as a way to sucker people into buying new games and consoles. If Nintendo released a new game each week (SMB1, Zelda 1, Excitebite, etc.) for free each week it'd pretty much guarantee people would be hitting the shop channel on their 3DS every week without fail. I can't imagine that'd cannibalize their official sales more than a little. Put the difference on the balance sheet as a marketing budget.

And SEGA has been pretty big on putting their titles on Steam, which is pretty close to having a multiplatform emulator and official ROMs. I don't think it's impossible to have other classic platforms do the same officially. They're just not in that mindset now.

I feel like we may see a huge change in the next decade or two as the baby boomer generation leaves the workforce and we start getting in a generation of kids who grew up with this kind of technology. I'm seeing that at work, where the management is starting to retire, and now folks are much more receptive to using ERP systems instead of trying to manage everything with Microsoft Excel.
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ஒழுக்கின்மை (Paul Eres)
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« Reply #9707 on: January 21, 2012, 07:41:21 PM »

that can't last very long, though. nintendo made, what, maybe 100 games for the NES? (i mean first-party games, not third-party). if they give one NES game away for free each week, they'd run out of NES games in 2 years. SNES and N64 might last them a little longer, but *eventually* they'll run out of games to give away, so i don't really see that "solution" as working long-term

it's also not a solution for indies, because we do not have backlogs of games to give away for free
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« Reply #9708 on: January 21, 2012, 07:51:58 PM »

Yeah but it would be a nice gesture from Nintendo which would undoubtedly raise traffic to their eShop. That kind of an effect would last through and through until the end of the hardware's lifecycle. It would also be an excellent selling point for the console.

However, I do doubt Nintendo would do such a thing at this point since they've already been selling their virtual console titles. I think it's clear that they're treating emulation as another source of revenue and don't want to put anything down for free. Which is a shame, I think.
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« Reply #9709 on: January 21, 2012, 08:00:04 PM »

Nintendo can also use gameboy, SNES, and might be able to get some third party titles. When a new console comes out, they could start from the beginning. I think with a little editing of the schedule, it could be made into a permanent solution, and it'd only get easier over time as more and more games are made.

But yeah, Indies can't compete like that. Really, the dilemma is identical to that of the big media companies in that you're effectively competing with competition that can sell a copy of your product with zero overhead because they didn't have to make it.

One solution is to offer frequent updates to your title. New maps, new campaigns, or an online component of the game (leaderboards, versus mode). This encourages players to get a legit copy, since registering an obvious copy with a fake key will prevent them from getting access. World of Goo, for example, can see pirate copies on their leaderboards. They could deny access to the leaderboards as a way to discourage piracy, if they chose.

Another solution is to make the base game free, but monetize things like perks in-game. MMOs frequently do this. There was a racing game on the TIGs frontpage that did the same, except the perk was a bonus track. Dino Run offered silly hats and unlockable cheats for buyers. Unless the game has a dedicated online mode, though, this is usually just defeated the first time somebody learns how to activate the bonus content. It does help defeat some of the lowest-level pirates, who feel feel guilty about stealing from somebody who gave them something up front for free.
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ஒழுக்கின்மை (Paul Eres)
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« Reply #9710 on: January 21, 2012, 08:09:16 PM »

i feel that adjusting your style of games because of piracy is a bad idea. even if it'd make more money to make free online games that sell you silly hats, that would come at the cost of making the types of games you want to make, and is not worth it. i feel that that would be adjusting the game to suit the pirates rather than continuing to attempt to please the customers who do pay for games. i'd rather have a game i was proud of that was pirated at a 99% rate and made only $10,000 than a game i was not proud of  that made $1,000,000. the latter is the "ian bogost" route (with his cow clicker game)
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« Reply #9711 on: January 22, 2012, 02:52:52 AM »

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And SEGA has been pretty big on putting their titles on Steam, which is pretty close to having a multiplatform emulator and official ROMs.
No it's not because they're limited to Windows. Sega's emulator exists for other platforms but your purchases (not to mention save files) don't carry over, meaning if I wanted to play e.g. Shining Force on both the PC and my iPhone, I'd have to purchase it twice.

IMO this whole concept of trying to forcefully limit games to one platform is ridiculous and outdated. It's like buying a car (just because the entertainment industry likes using the "stealing a car" analogy with piracy) and only being allowed to park it in one garage.
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« Reply #9712 on: January 22, 2012, 05:22:08 AM »

I'm surprised they didn't piggy back the save data on to Steam's achievements where they could.
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« Reply #9713 on: January 22, 2012, 07:18:07 AM »

Happy Lunar New Year and Chinese New Year for everyone who celebrate it!   Beer! Toast Right
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SirNiko
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« Reply #9714 on: January 22, 2012, 08:46:13 AM »

No it's not because they're limited to Windows. Sega's emulator exists for other platforms but your purchases (not to mention save files) don't carry over, meaning if I wanted to play e.g. Shining Force on both the PC and my iPhone, I'd have to purchase it twice.

Can you transfer save files between a windows and a iOS emulator already? I wasn't aware that a thing like that currently exists.

It'd also turn into a huge hassle for SEGA to have to keep records of every person who bought every game so they can transfer it to a new device when it becomes available. What they offer on Steam now seems to be pretty much the ideal minus the typical emulator features of save states and slo-mo, etc.
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« Reply #9715 on: January 22, 2012, 08:52:43 AM »

Quote
And SEGA has been pretty big on putting their titles on Steam, which is pretty close to having a multiplatform emulator and official ROMs.
No it's not because they're limited to Windows. Sega's emulator exists for other platforms but your purchases (not to mention save files) don't carry over, meaning if I wanted to play e.g. Shining Force on both the PC and my iPhone, I'd have to purchase it twice.

IMO this whole concept of trying to forcefully limit games to one platform is ridiculous and outdated. It's like buying a car (just because the entertainment industry likes using the "stealing a car" analogy with piracy) and only being allowed to park it in one garage.

I will say though that their new Sonic CD port is actually a port; while it may still be lame you can't move saves around, that does at least show they may be admitting emulators alone are not enough.
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« Reply #9716 on: January 22, 2012, 09:07:19 AM »

The problem isn't emulation necessarily, it's just that Sega's official emulator is kinda bad and the way they're selling it (each game comes packaged with its own copy of the program) is dumb.

If Sega made a high-quality, multiplatform, commercial emulator and released roms for it, that'd be good. They could even pick up one of the existing amateur-made Megadrive emulators, similarly to what they did with the Sonic CD port.
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« Reply #9717 on: January 22, 2012, 01:51:18 PM »

From what I know, the new port is actually a port, which means it supports multiple resolutions and so on. That's far preferable to any kind of emulation, though I guess it takes longer...
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« Reply #9718 on: January 22, 2012, 01:56:08 PM »

I went to the barrett-jackson car show + auction yesterday. Saw a bunch of cool cars, including JFK's hearse, some nice ford broncos, and some other cars. Did you know there is a car that goes from land to water? it's a boat. a boat car. and it was real.
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« Reply #9719 on: January 22, 2012, 01:58:20 PM »

Did you know there is a car that goes from land to water? it's a boat. a boat car. and it was real.

Stone Mountain Park as an attraction of tours in these things called Ride the Ducks. Not exactly a decent ride, and you'll not only have to deal with screaming babies, but the annoying "Who Let the Dogs Out?" song.
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