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TIGSource ForumsPlayerGeneralFight Thread Pollution! Post here if it's not worth a new thread!!!
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Author Topic: Fight Thread Pollution! Post here if it's not worth a new thread!!!  (Read 1759536 times)
PompiPompi
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« Reply #15200 on: May 03, 2013, 01:33:52 pm »

I meant working on their free time to produce more content for Kickstarter.
They are 9 people after all, they could have produced something more than a short track with average models...

I also saw their new video and it had nothing of the(what I now believe) are post processing video editing effects in the first video.

Also, a lot of people made games in their free time while having a real job, I don't think their workplace is so much more demanding than other normal workplaces.
I also don't think the game industry is such a hellish demanding place that you like to portray, sure there is a bit of crunch time but for MOST places it's nothing too crazy.
And I know people who worked at big game studios.

They also didn't specify what they were doing at all at those mega companies, it might have been very small parts, they might have been fired for being incompetent.
They didn't show their work at those companies, so you can't tell what they did there.

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« Reply #15201 on: May 03, 2013, 01:41:11 pm »

I also don't think the game industry is such a hellish demanding place that you like to portray

You're welcome to live in whatever kind of fantasy world you prefer.

They also didn't specify what they were doing at all at those mega companies, it might have been very small parts, they might have been fired for being incompetent.
They didn't show their work at those companies, so you can't tell what they did there.

They did however put their names up, so if you care so much about it you can check them out on Mobygames or wherever.
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« Reply #15202 on: May 03, 2013, 02:16:46 pm »

Well, I know a guy who worked on fable 2\3 and mass effect and he has very good and respectful work environment. He is not a "crunch time junkie".

Almost every consumer product based company will have crunch time... yea crunch time is not very good for the long run, but in MOST cases it's short and not too crazy.
I think you hear some excpetional stories and think the entuire industry is like that.
It's kind of like how people see a few succesful indie games like Minecraft and etc and think making money from indie games is very easy.

Also, what is a game jam or LD if not crunch time? Why are you not against that?

I looked up their names on moby games. Most of them have only one game at their resume, most of the games are before 2011, some even only from 2009.
They all seem like junior developers who lost their jobs... but that's just a guess.

Edit: You also didn't respond to why their second video look way simpler and plain compared to the first video.
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« Reply #15203 on: May 03, 2013, 02:28:54 pm »

Also, what is a game jam or LD if not crunch time? Why are you not against that?

No one loses their income if they decide to not enter or to drop out of LD.
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« Reply #15204 on: May 03, 2013, 02:32:18 pm »

Also, labour laws don't cover your free time. In fact, the entire point of having them is so you have free time to begin with.
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« Reply #15205 on: May 03, 2013, 02:37:15 pm »

There was a whole thread recently about industry crunch time, go read that.

http://forums.tigsource.com/index.php?topic=32856.0
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PompiPompi
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« Reply #15206 on: May 03, 2013, 02:47:59 pm »

It's just a promotion ad for Nine Dots with no real evidence of how bad those companies are, making wild speculations about how the fact that most workers have less than 3 years of experience and are not married proves they all work crunch time.
In other words, BS.

Edit: The question is, is the cause for being only 5 years in the industry is because of crunch time or because most programmers suck and are not good enough to develop an AAA game?
I doubt there are many companies that don't have a certain amount of crunch time and pressure.
So what do all these programmers do after they stop working at the game industry? Do they find the "miracle company" that have a lot of money and don't have any crunch time?

On the contrary, I think work environment is a lot more suckier when you have a profession that is in less demand.

Every work environment might have an asshole boss and clueless management. It's not something unheard of, it is actually quite common that workplaces are filled with asshole, greedy and stupid people.
But there are some workplaces that actually have nice and good people, and those work places tend to accept people who are themselves nice and good at their profession.
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« Reply #15207 on: May 03, 2013, 03:28:15 pm »

You've gone completely off the rails at this point.  If you're so convinced the Road Rash thing is a scam, why not alert Kickstarter about it?  Oh that's right, because all you really want to do is rant and rave.
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« Reply #15208 on: May 03, 2013, 03:36:31 pm »

It's more on the grey area...
You don't buy a product, you pay for someone to complete some game which does not exist yet.
No one knows how the game will be yet.
What I complain is how they hype the supporters by showing a video which is a cut scene with post video editing and claim this is gameplay.
If they would have been more honest I wouldn't mind. I just don't like how they are over promising and inflate their value like good politicians while other Kickstarter which have been more honest and showed real content and effort will not get funded because they didn't create a video cut scene of non existing engine\game\prototype
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« Reply #15209 on: May 03, 2013, 04:50:53 pm »

If they would have been more honest I wouldn't mind. I just don't like how they are over promising and inflate their value like good politicians while other Kickstarter which have been more honest and showed real content and effort will not get funded because they didn't create a video cut scene of non existing engine\game\prototype


They marketed themselves successfully before having a core engine down. This is new to kickstarter how?
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« Reply #15210 on: May 04, 2013, 12:41:14 am »

I didn't say this is new, but just because other did this before doesn't make it right.
I am just getting annoyed by the absurdity of this.
This is even worse than what game industry companies do.
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« Reply #15211 on: May 04, 2013, 12:47:21 am »

You've gone completely off the rails at this point.

Exactly. The short version is that asking for money to make a project which doesn't exist yet IS WHAT KICKSTARTER IS ACTUALLY FOR. It's the whole entire point! 99% of projects on KS will show you a glossy mockup of what their product will look like when it's finished because the whole reason they're on KS is because they aren't finished yet. If you don't like it, ignore Kickstarter entirely.

The ones who don't do the glossy mockup and just show you the work-in-progress generally fail to get funded because they are competing for people's attention against people who do. Therefore, if you want to succeed on KS, you do a glossy mockup. It's just human nature, and if you don't like that top yourself or join a hippy commune, you're not escaping from it any other way.

Almost every consumer product based company will have crunch time... yea crunch time is not very good for the long run, but in MOST cases it's short and not too crazy.
I think you hear some excpetional stories and think the entuire industry is like that.

If you think that the games industry is all roses and rainbows, then by all means go and get a job programming for a games company. Come back in a year and tell us about your awesome salary and the thirty-five hour weeks and the respect with which you were treated. Sure, there are companies that are like that, but from everything I see and hear they're in the minority... and most of them are run by arseholes who have figured out that there is a ready supply of idiot-savant teenagers and twenty-somethings who think that working in games is SO COOL and will happily work like slaves just so they can say they have a job at <insert well known company> working on <insert well known game>.

I know a few people personally who have been working fifty-hour weeks since the beginning of the year for shitty pay and are now having their hours upped. I think that pretty much everyone I've known, online and face-to-face, who has got into the triple-A games industry periodically drops off the face of the planet for months on end when a game is 'near' to release.

I've worked in the proper software industry in the UK for about eleven years - the one that makes business software, respects national labour laws, pays decently and is run by businessmen and not overgrown man-children - and we have crunch time too. It's that period that lasts a couple of weeks before a major release where you sometimes have to work through half your lunch-break and stay an hour or two later after work. That messes up my game-making schedule, makes it harder for me to dedicate a couple of hours in the evening to make games, because I'm an average human being who only works solidly for forty-odd hours a week, and I like to have some time to relax. Demanding anything else of the people who make games for you is infantile.

Also, what is a game jam or LD if not crunch time? Why are you not against that?

If you seriously can't tell the difference between "voluntary activity for fun" and "lose your job and your ability to feed yourself and live under a roof if you don't do this", then sorry, but you're too stupid to bother communicating with.

Not to mention the minor difference that when a lone individual or a small group of friends finishes crunch time they get the warm glow of satisfaction and - if they're a commercial indie dev team - paid for their work; when a games industry professional finishes crunch time, half the time they get fired! Certainly they never see a cut of the profits or any other reward proportional to their hard work.

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« Reply #15212 on: May 04, 2013, 01:30:58 am »

Also, what is a game jam or LD if not crunch time? Why are you not against that?
what
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« Reply #15213 on: May 04, 2013, 07:47:38 am »

I don't think you know too many companies inside out to know what it's like for the entire game industry or for the entire software market.
You just know a few friends and have a bit of personal experience so you project that to the entire game industry.
The horrors of workplaces exist in almost every industry, including business software. I would assume. There are horrible people everywhere, not just in game companies.
To think that the game industry is somehow different than other software companies is silly.
Does the game industry attract more horrible managers than in other places? Are the share holders more cold and evil in the game industry than in other industries?

Did I say that the game industry is all roses? Are you putting words into my mouth? Thanks...

You have shown no substantial evidence that the game industry is any different than other industries.
My guess is that the more your skills are in demand, the better your work conditions are. If you are a waitress, you are more likely to be treated like shit because you are replaceable.
Most software developers are also replaceable because they don't have any special knowledge.

I guess you don't really know that most working places are filled with greedy asshole that can't care even a bit for their workers well being... this is not special to the game industry. It's the human nature.
Being an asshole is in our genes.

That is why nice work places are the exception, but that is true to any industry not just the game industry.
I would say that where your skills are in less demand you are more open to exploitation because you are easily replaceable.

However, this is mostly from my personal experience, I really don't have evidence this is true since I didn't work in hundreds of companies, only a few.
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« Reply #15214 on: May 04, 2013, 07:55:14 am »

In Kickstarter people make claims, they set goals. The people who spend their money on these campaigns do so because they BELIEVE these people can achieve those goals.
If someone over-promise or is not competent enough to achieve his goals and promises, then he scams the supporters.
Having a prototype is a good way to show you can achieve those goals.
Having an animated video is only good to show a concept abut is not a good way to show you can deliver.
People saying they worked at game companies although it is not clear for how long and what they did there, are trying to make people believe they can deliver.

This is why I wait for all these project to under deliver and have many people disappointed by the distance between the goals and promises and reality.

Just because someone agree to pay you it doesn't mean that you are giving him what he thought he is paying for.
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Jimym GIMBERT
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« Reply #15215 on: May 04, 2013, 07:56:59 am »

David cage: Video games need to grow up and stop making super hero game ...
Beyond two souls: a game about a girl with superpower
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« Reply #15216 on: May 04, 2013, 08:22:09 am »

Heavy Rain has one of the silliest storylines in a game ever.
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Udderdude
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« Reply #15217 on: May 04, 2013, 08:29:40 am »

How 2 get gud story in vidyagaem

Step 1 : Hire a writer.  Like, an actual one.  Who writes books.
Step 2 : Don't shoehorn the story into a genre that it can't support or makes it boring/uninteresting (goes for both the story and game)
Step 3 : ? ? ?
Step 4 : Realize the guys at http://www.ifarchive.org/ have probably already done the story you did, only 10 times better.
Step 5 : Cry into a bowl of your own half-eaten feces.

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« Reply #15218 on: May 04, 2013, 08:32:16 am »

yeah people should consider IF way more seriously when they are talking about "game" story, even twine game are ahead. David cage, big budget twine game.
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« Reply #15219 on: May 04, 2013, 08:54:09 am »

it'd be cool if interactive fiction got a mainstream revival similar to the one roguelikes are undergoing atm.
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